Most Women Get The Type Of Man They Dress For - March 2014 Ensign

[canard78]

In March 2014 Ensign we have the following statement:

"The dress of a woman has a powerful impact upon the minds and passions of men. If it is too low or too high or too tight, it may prompt improper thoughts, even in the mind of a young man who is striving to be pure. Men and women can look sharp and be fashionable, yet they can also be modest. Women particularly can dress modestly and in the process contribute to their own self­-respect and to the moral purity of men. In the end, most women get the type of man they dress for."

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-march-2014/2014-03-00-ensign-eng.pdf

As the father of an 11-year-old girl I of course encourage her to dress modestly. But I'm disturbed by the message that: "...most women get the type of man they dress for."

So if a woman who wears a short dress or low top ends up in an abusive relationship, is it her fault? Did she get the man she dressed for?

[jwhitlock]

In March 2014 Ensign we have the following statement:

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-march-2014/2014-03-00-ensign-eng.pdf

As the father of an 11-year-old girl I of course encourage her to dress modestly. But I'm disturbed by the message that: "...most women get the type of man they dress for."

So if a woman who wears a short dress or low top ends up in an abusive relationship, is it her fault? Did she get the man she dressed for?

 

I don't see anything in the quote that says she'll end up in an abusive relationship, and it will be her fault. The quote seems to be a simple statement of "what you sow, so shall you reap".

[Peppermint Patty]

 

In the end, most women get the type of man they dress for.

 

This has the potential to be a harmful message for both young women and young men. 

 

This message could serve to reinforce stereotypes about women by judging women based solely on their attire.  Also, the message that women are not more than their clothes, is destructive.

 

Women's choice of clothes is a complicated mixture of economics, culture, personal choice and parental guidance.  Judging someone on their clothes is shallow and not something the Savior would have approved of.  I wish this message was not in the Ensign.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Peppermint Patty

[Storm Rider]

In March 2014 Ensign we have the following statement:

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-march-2014/2014-03-00-ensign-eng.pdf

As the father of an 11-year-old girl I of course encourage her to dress modestly. But I'm disturbed by the message that: "...most women get the type of man they dress for."

So if a woman who wears a short dress or low top ends up in an abusive relationship, is it her fault? Did she get the man she dressed for?

 

I think this has more to do with evaluating life and observing where we varying degrees of ownership over what happens to us.  Narrowing this down to the topic, what role does a woman's attire play in what type of man is attracting to her?  What role does the way a young woman carry herself; how much and what kind of makes-up she wears; how well she dresses, etc?  

 

To me it seems pretty obvious that these things have an influence on the caliber of man that will be attracted to a specific woman. However, it should not be understood that they are the only influence on what time of man is both attracted and stays with a particular young woman.  

 

It is also valid to say there are initial influences on what attracts a young woman to a young man.  

 

We each should look for our own responsiblity for what happens to us in our lives. Some things are directly the result of our own actions.  Other things are not direct, but indirectly we share in the responsibility for what occurs. 

[Senator]

Modesty is a moving scale.  Things deemed "modest' today, would make my Grandmother turn over in her grave.  Yet these girls are getting fine RMs by the droves. What the heck!

[CV75]

In March 2014 Ensign we have the following statement:

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-march-2014/2014-03-00-ensign-eng.pdf

As the father of an 11-year-old girl I of course encourage her to dress modestly. But I'm disturbed by the message that: "...most women get the type of man they dress for."

So if a woman who wears a short dress or low top ends up in an abusive relationship, is it her fault? Did she get the man she dressed for?

No, the man she dressed for wears sagging pants and a net t-shirt, whether he's abusive or not.

[mercyngrace]

Canard78,

 

The part that bothers me is this:

 

The blessings of living a clean and moral life are overwhelming. Such a life will bring self­ confidence and self­ esteem. It will result in a clear conscience. It will make us eligible 

for a spouse of like purity...

 

So if you lived a clean and moral life but married a convert or *gasp* someone who sinned and had to use the atonement, are you marrying down? If you committed a moral transgression and repented are you ineligible for a spouse who lived the law of chastity? Does the atonement only make you sorta clean so you only deserve the attention of others who are sorta clean, too? If you marry someone of "like purity" and he later cheats or gets addicted to pornography, is it because you wore that sleeveless dress to the homecoming dance? Did you somehow merit that betrayal?

 

Yeah. Not a fan of this talk. I think it sends the anti-Christ message that our works justify us rather than the grace of Christ. I watched this play out in the lives of dear friends who almost divorced because he (who had remained chaste) could not stop passively aggressively punishing her (who before baptism had lived with a fiance). He had received messages like Elder Callister's and felt shortchanged. 

 

I watched this kind of thinking nearly destroy another marriage where her father insisted she needed to tell her new husband of her teenage indiscretion. Where her father, absorbing the 'he is eligible for like purity' mentality sent the message to his daughter that she was less than girls who'd remained chaste. That the atonement didn't really get her all the way clean. A message it took God 15 years to overwrite.

 

I could go on.

 

Sadly I heard a similar message yesterday from the pulpit. The speaker said that it would be better if we never sinned at all. Actually, the atonement makes it as if we never sinned at all. The only difference then is that in the first case, we tend toward self-righteousness and in the latter, according to Adam and Eve, our eyes are opened and we can have joy in our redemption. 

 

Oh, I wish some of us would stop preaching as if sin only affected those people.

[Alan]

To be honest, I really don't pay too much attention to the Ensign these days.

It has dumbed down significantly over the years and there are occasions when it teaches outright false doctrine in my view.

 

I can see what they are trying to say - the headline is an eye-catcher - but doesn't appear to hold water when you really think about it.

[thesometimesaint]

In March 2014 Ensign we have the following statement:

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-march-2014/2014-03-00-ensign-eng.pdf

As the father of an 11-year-old girl I of course encourage her to dress modestly. But I'm disturbed by the message that: "...most women get the type of man they dress for."

So if a woman who wears a short dress or low top ends up in an abusive relationship, is it her fault? Did she get the man she dressed for?

 

Le sigh

[strappinglad]

I recently heard of a stat that judgments in job interviews are often made within 12 seconds. I wonder what criterion are used to make such assessments? It may not be fair but it is real.

Animals too, make snap judgments based on appearance and demeanor.

Yesterday in church there was a person who showed up in rough clothes and a cap. I assumed he was an investigator. My sinful mind , however, thought" He could at least removed his cap in the chapel" I mentally slapped myself for such a thought but , there it was.

Like it or not , how one dresses affects others , and ourselves. Some here are making huge leaps of logic at to what the OP statement implies.

[thesometimesaint]

Books and Covers.

[bluebell]

Sadly I heard a similar message yesterday from the pulpit. The speaker said that it would be better if we never sinned at all. Actually, the atonement makes it as if we never sinned at all. The only difference then is that in the first case, we tend toward self-righteousness and in the latter, according to Adam and Eve, our eyes are opened and we can have joy in our redemption.

Oh, I wish some of us would stop preaching as if sin only affected those people.

I agree with what you are saying, but at the same time, I think it's very important for people, especially teenagers, to understand that the Atonement doesn't remove all of the consequences of our sins though.

A young man who gets a girl pregnant will not be able to serve a mission, for example. Or a girl who gets drunk and drives and hurts someone will face the justice system, and may spend many years in prison, regardless of whether or not she sincerely repents. A kid who cheats on a test at school can get kicked out of a program he or she truly desired, changing the course of their lives in mortality in a negative way. Someone addicted to drugs can lose years and change their brain chemistry to the point that they will never regain the intelligence and mental abilities they once had.

In each of these situations and countless others, it definitely would have been better if the sin had never occurred. I completely believe that the Atonement can give us beauty for ashes, and remove the stain of our sins spiritually so it becomes as if they never occurred. And that even when consequences do happen that are very difficult, we can still very much joy in our redemption.

But i don't believe that negates the idea that it usually isn't better to not have sinned in the first place. Sometimes the consequences of our sins are truly tragic, for ourselves and others, and though they can be softened thru the grace of Christ, most of the time we (and others) still suffer thru them even when sincere repentance occurs.

In regards to the talk, hopefully this is what the speaker was trying to convey, and not the idea that the Atonement is insufficient to cover sins. There definitely are people in the church who don't understand the Atonement correctly though and this speaker could have been one of them.

[Buzzard]

Obviously, OBVIOUSLY, sin can be repented of. People make mistakes, but through the atonement they can be as clean as if the sin had never been committed. And no woman deserves to be abused, and men are in the end responsible for their own actions and thoughts. As the lawyers say, this things can be stipulated and agreed upon.

But let's say your worthy, generally good son of marriageable age and situation was dating two young ladies, both active in the church, as far as you know, both would make a great spouse and future mother to your grandkids. But one seems not to have a problem showing up for dates in short shorts and a spaghetti strap tank, while the other wears more modest clothing. You have a pool in your backyard, and your son invites each one over to swim. The first shows up in a very revealing bikini style, while the other young lady wore a flattering but much less revealing one piece suit.

All other things being roughly equal, which of those two young ladies are you hoping he chooses? (Yes, I know the women have a say in it as well, but you know what I mean). 

Edited February 17, 2014 by Buzzard

[mfbukowski]

So notice that the only comments which are quite negative about the article are from women.

 

Even canard makes it clear that he encourages modesty in his daughter.  What man here will stand up for immodest dress for his wife or daughter?  None!

 

Women are extremely naive about what goes on in men's minds when it comes to these matters.

 

Perhaps the article could have been more sensitive but the central message is correct.  Just notice the sex of the commenters in each comment and you will see a difference.  

Edited February 17, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mercyngrace]

This has the potential to be a harmful message for both young women and young men. 

 

This message could serve to reinforce stereotypes about women by judging women based solely on their attire.  Also, the message that women are not more than their clothes, is destructive.

 

Women's choice of clothes is a complicated mixture of economics, culture, personal choice and parental guidance.  Judging someone on their clothes is shallow and not something the Savior would have approved of.  I wish this message was not in the Ensign.

 

I wish women weren't held accountable for the thoughts that men conjure up. That is another flawed implication from Elder Callister's talk. He writes:

 

Women particularly can dress modestly and in the process contribute to their own self­ respect and to the moral purity of men.

 

 

 

The Savior's command to look not upon a woman to lust after her did not include the caveat 'unless she's dressed seductively'. 

 

Her lack of modesty is her transgression.

 

His lustful thoughts are his.

 

If it takes external controls for a man to maintain moral purity, then he's not maintaining it. Society is. 

[mfbukowski]

I wish women weren't held accountable for the thoughts that men conjure up. That is another flawed implication from Elder Callister's talk. He writes:

 

 

 

The Savior's command to look not upon a woman to lust after her did not include the caveat 'unless she's dressed seductively'. 

 

Her lack of modesty is her transgression.

 

His lustful thoughts are his.

 

If it takes external controls for a man to maintain moral purity, then he's not maintaining it. Society is. 

Men get to deal mentally with millions of generations of evolution where rape and pillage was the norm and that's not going away soon because we are now civilized.

 

I agree completely with your post, but the fact is that women don't know how hard it is.

[bluebell]

I wish women weren't held accountable for the thoughts that men conjure up. That is another flawed implication from Elder Callister's talk. He writes:

 

 

This.

 

This is what i especially do not like about the article.

 

I think there is value in helping young women to understand how men's brain's works and that it does not so them any favors to seek out to be seen by them as purely sexual objects.  However, i think we can teach that without also teaching that one of the purposes of modesty in women is to save men from themselves.

[thesometimesaint]

Obviously, OBVIOUSLY, sin can be repented of. People make mistakes, but through the atonement they can be as clean as if the sin had never been committed. And no woman deserves to be abused, and men are in the end responsible for their own actions and thoughts. As the lawyers say, this things can be stipulated and agreed upon.

But let's say your worthy, generally good son of marriageable age and situation was dating two young ladies, both active in the church, as far as you know, both would make a great spouse and future mother to your grandkids. But one seems not to have a problem showing up for dates in short shorts and a spaghetti strap tank, while the other wears more modest clothing. You have a pool in your backyard, and your son invites each one over to swim. The first shows up in a very revealing bikini style, while the other young lady wore a flattering but much less revealing one piece suit.

All other things being roughly equal, which of those two young ladies are you hoping he chooses? (Yes, I know the women have a say in it as well, but you know what I mean). 

 

The one whom my son chooses.

[mercyngrace]

I agree with what you are saying, but at the same time, I think it's very important for people, especially teenagers, to understand that the Atonement doesn't remove all of the consequences of our sins though.

...

But i don't believe that negates the idea that it usually isn't better to not have sinned in the first place. Sometimes the consequences of our sins are truly tragic, for ourselves and others, and though they can be softened thru the grace of Christ, most of the time we (and others) still suffer thru them even when sincere repentance occurs.

In regards to the talk, hopefully this is what the speaker was trying to convey, and not the idea that the Atonement is insufficient to cover sins. There definitely are people in the church who don't understand the Atonement correctly though and this speaker could have been one of them.

 

Bluebell,

 

I appreciate the distinction you are trying to make. Suffice it to say, the speaker presented the statement in a way that made it clear he doesn't understand the far-reaching power of the atonement. 

 

The fact is that it doesn't matter whether it is better that we never sinned because none of us will know that experience. We have all sinned. We only sin differently. 

 

Of course, knowing that we would all sin, one wonders why God didn't think it would be better to keep us safe in the premortal realm.

 

ETA: edited because I sounded like a little snot and repented. I guess I'm just kind of done with hearing apologies (apologia) for some of the dumb things we say and pass on to each other in the church. My patience is wearing thin. I need to work on that. 

Edited February 17, 2014 by mercyngrace

[Mystery Meat]

So notice that the only comments which are quite negative about the article are from women.

 

Even canard makes it clear that he encourages modesty in his daughter.  What man here will stand up for immodest dress for his wife or daughter?  None!

 

Women are extremely naive about what goes on in men's minds when it comes to these matters.

 

Perhaps the article could have been more sensitive but the central message is correct.  Just notice the sex of the commenters in each comment and you will see a difference.  

 

Agreed. To me this is just people looking for a fight. The principal is so simple and obvious it is ridiculous. In my dating experience, and I still qualify as a YSA, I can tell you that I am turned off by girls who dress immodestly. Yes, it is possible for immodest dress to illicit indecent thoughts. I do not entertain those thoughts, nor do I blame the girl for inciting them. But neither are they innocent. Many, if not most, of the girls I have encountered who dress immodestly know EXACTLY what they are doing and that is to get men to turn their heads. Others of you may have had different experience, but that is my experience. Make no mistake a man has a choice whether or not he will entertain impure thoughts, but seeing cleavage and a lot of thigh causes a very specific and what I will call natural reaction within a man. This is even more true in the hyper-sexualized world we are living in.

 

Certainly immodest dress doesn't make a girl (or guy) a terrible person. However, in my experience the girls I know who do dress immodestly are usually very immature or tragically have a lot of emotional issues/low self-esteem. I am sure to many of you such statements make some of you assume I am just some self-righteous holier than thou Utah Mormon. Some of my best friends are girls who dress immodestly, and I stand by my statements. I am dating to not only find a wife/mate, but somebody who gives my future kids a fighting chance in a deteriorating world. I am not sure I qualify as the highest caliber of man (in fact the thought makes me laugh) but I will not apologize for looking for certain indicators of spiritual maturity in the women I date.   

[thesometimesaint]

I don't believe she was suggesting this. But men and boys are responsible for their own thoughts and actions

http://actforamericahouston.wordpress.com/2012/07/03/pre-taliban-afghanistan-1950s-1960s/

[bluebell]

Bluebell,

 

I appreciate the distinction you are trying to make however I was in the meeting and know the speaker so I think I have a pretty good grasp of what was said and how it was presented. 

 

The fact is that it doesn't matter whether it is better that we never sinned because none of us will know that experience. We have all sinned. We only sin differently. 

 

Of course, knowing that we would all sin, one wonders why God didn't think it would be better to keep us safe in the premortal realm.

 

I definitely did not mean to imply that i knew what the speaker was saying more than you.

 

I was only elaborating on your statement that the Atonement makes it as if the sin had never occurred.  Obviously, when it comes to consequences in mortality, that is not the case with many sins.  Repentance does always make it as if the sin did not happen and the Atonement does not always erase the effects of the sin.  And I believe that is a very important distinction to make.

 

[mfbukowski]

In March 2014 Ensign we have the following statement:

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-march-2014/2014-03-00-ensign-eng.pdf

As the father of an 11-year-old girl I of course encourage her to dress modestly. But I'm disturbed by the message that: "...most women get the type of man they dress for."

So if a woman who wears a short dress or low top ends up in an abusive relationship, is it her fault? Did she get the man she dressed for?

I work with a woman who by any standard dresses immodestly.

 

She has 5 children with 5 different fathers and is now looking for another.  Is it her fault?  No.  Does here behavior help her situation?

[mercyngrace]

I definitely did not mean to imply that i knew what the speaker was saying more than you.

 

I was only elaborating on your statement that the Atonement makes it as if the sin had never occurred.  Obviously, when it comes to consequences in mortality, that is not the case with many sins.  Repentance does always make it as if the sin did not happen and the Atonement does not always erase the effects of the sin.  And I believe that is a very important distinction to make.

 

 

BB, 

 

Go back and reread my edited post. I was editing while you were writing this. I apologize for being obnoxious. 

 

MnG

[bluebell]

 

 

ETA: edited because I sounded like a little snot and repented. I guess I'm just kind of done with hearing apologies (apologia) for some of the dumb things we say and pass on to each other in the church. My patience is wearing thin. I need to work on that.