Most Women Get The Type Of Man They Dress For - March 2014 Ensign

[Mystery Meat]

I don't believe she was suggesting this. But men and boys are responsible for their own thoughts and actions

http://actforamericahouston.wordpress.com/2012/07/03/pre-taliban-afghanistan-1950s-1960s/

 

One small quibble.

 

Men and boys are responsible for entertaining thoughts and the actions those thoughts lead to. A girl, can however, play a role in planting an improper thought in the mind of a man. I have found in my life, that my ability to remove those thoughts quickly improves with practice and is practically to the point now where they don't even arise in the first place, but that was definitely a skill I had to train up.

[thesometimesaint]

One small quibble.

 

Men and boys are responsible for entertaining thoughts and the actions those thoughts lead to. A girl, can however, play a role in planting an improper thought in the mind of a man. I have found in my life, that my ability to remove those thoughts quickly improves with practice and is practically to the point now where they don't even arise in the first place, but that was definitely a skill I had to train up.

 

We all responsible for our own thought and actions. When I stand before my maker I don't believe he'll let me get away with claiming "The Devil(or anyone else) made me do it". 

 

Ps; Related.

Edited February 17, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[Mystery Meat]

We all responsible for our own thought and actions. When I stand before my maker I don't believe he'll let me get away with claiming "The Devil(or anyone else) made me do it". 

 

No disagreements from me here. Nor do I think I have said anything to the contrary in my posts.

 

I do think when we stand before our maker, we will be held accountable for how our actions, words, and yes even the way we dress may have helped, invited, or encouraged those around us to become more like the Savior as opposed to being more like the world. Edit to add: we don't live our lives in a vacuum. 

Edited February 17, 2014 by lvjd66

[mercyngrace]

In reading this thread, it looks like most of us can see some issues with ow this topic was treated by Elder Callister. That's great for us here on the board. We've all thought through the ramifications of the words being published in the Ensign. But what about those members of the church, and they do exist, who hang on the words published in the Ensign and who will be using this article to teach our children and youth?

 

How do we steer the conversation in such a way that teaches correct principles without creating damaging cultural doctrines?

 

Is the mere attempt to steer the conversation an act of ark-steadying?

[Traela]

There is a pseudo-feminist notion going around that girls and women should be able to do whatever they want with zero consequences. But the simple truth is that choices and actions have consequences. I hear all the time of people who show up to a job interview in sloppy clothes, who are offended that the interviewer won't look past their appearance to see their amazing skills. (Oddly enough, those who are most offended often have worse skills than those who are genuinely clueless and accept the suggestion of better dress.)

In the same way, dating is basically an mutual extended job interview, the job being marriage. If a girl wants a faithful LDS priesthood holder, she needs to basically advertise that she is looking for that. It's really no different from when a guy gives a long list of desired qualities in a girl, and someone asks him if HE is the kind of person a girl like that would want.

[Senator]

 

Is the mere attempt to steer the conversation an act of ark-steadying?

 

I think the environment that fostered the "ark-steadier" accusation has been greatly diminished over the past few years.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

aghghghghghghghghgggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhggggggg

[Mystery Meat]

There is a pseudo-feminist notion going around that girls and women should be able to do whatever they want with zero consequences. But the simple truth is that choices and actions have consequences. I hear all the time of people who show up to a job interview in sloppy clothes, who are offended that the interviewer won't look past their appearance to see their amazing skills. (Oddly enough, those who are most offended often have worse skills than those who are genuinely clueless and accept the suggestion of better dress.)

In the same way, dating is basically an mutual extended job interview, the job being marriage. If a girl wants a faithful LDS priesthood holder, she needs to basically advertise that she is looking for that. It's really no different from when a guy gives a long list of desired qualities in a girl, and someone asks him if HE is the kind of person a girl like that would want.

 

Bingo.

[Mystery Meat]

aghghghghghghghghgggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhggggggg

 

LOUD NOISES!!!!!!!!!!!!

[thesometimesaint]

No disagreements from me here. Nor do I think I have said anything to the contrary in my posts.

 

I do think when we stand before our maker, we will be held accountable for how our actions, words, and yes even the way we dress may have helped, invited, or encouraged those around us to become more like the Savior as opposed to being more like the world. Edit to add: we don't live our lives in a vacuum. 

 

Believe me as a Social Worker I'm well aware of how people effect others, for good or for ill. Except for the fact I have a bushy mustache, you wouldn't be able to tell me from my Bishop by the clothes we each wear. But mostly I don't want to scare the public.

Edited February 17, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[Mystery Meat]

Believe me as a Social Worker I'm well aware of how people effect others, for good or for ill. Except for the fact I have a bushy mustache, you wouldn't be able to tell me from my Bishop by the clothes we each wear. But mostly I don't want to scare the public.

 

I have a pretty decent beard at the moment...chicks dig the beard.

[pogi]

I think it would be better stated: Most women get the type of man they seek after.

 

I think women try to attract men who have the same level of self-esteem/worth as themselves.  Changing the attire of a girl with low self-esteem/worth is not going to fix things.  If only it was that easy!  

 

I sometimes wonder if parents who make such a fuss over the dress of their children are more concerned about what it says about them as parents than anything else. 

 

Edit:  I hope the last paragraph is not offensive to anybody, I know that it is not true for all parents who are concerned about the dress of their children.  I believe that a woman should dress modestly, but I hope that people recognize that the dress is only a symptom of deeper issues.  

Edited February 17, 2014 by pogi

[pogi]

I have a pretty decent beard at the moment...chicks dig the beard.

 

Be careful, it may prompt improper and immoral thoughts, even in the mind of a young woman who is striving to be pure.

[Mystery Meat]

Be careful, it may prompt improper and immoral thoughts, even in the mind of a young woman who is striving to be pure.

 

Hahahaha. I LOL'd. 

[canard78]

So notice that the only comments which are quite negative about the article are from women.

Even canard makes it clear that he encourages modesty in his daughter. What man here will stand up for immodest dress for his wife or daughter? None!

Women are extremely naive about what goes on in men's minds when it comes to these matters.

Perhaps the article could have been more sensitive but the central message is correct. Just notice the sex of the commenters in each comment and you will see a difference.

I think you're drawing false assumptions about my OP. I'm pretty furious about the sexism in this article. I deeply object to the dual standards in this article. I will encourage all of my children to be modest in their appearance and behaviour for multiple reasons, mainly to encourage self-respect.

I will not, however, use false threats and guilt such as:

- You're walking porn

- You'll get, and deserve, the wrong type of partner

- You'll only get a "high quality" spouse if you're pure

All are very poor teaching tools, encourage negative self-image and give tacit endorsement to sexism and misogyny.

The article is terrible and quotes scripture that, in some cases, is taken from chapters that we otherwise reject wholesale.

Elder Callister, for example, selectively quotes from:

1 Tim 2:

"9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

Given Elder Callister claims to be delivering God's indisputable word on the matter, at what verse in the list above does Paul stop speaking God's doctrine and instead speaks his own opinion? V10? V11??

I find it somewhat ironic that in the opening paragraphs he sweeps aside the opinions of psychologists when the dominant view of morality is born less out of revealed doctrine and more out of Victorian prudishness. Attitudes which were, in part, influenced by the attitudes of psychologists of the era.

I find little doctrine in this article and instead personal opinion sprinkled with selective scripture.

(Does that help adjust the male:female balance mfbukowski?)

[mfbukowski]

One small quibble.

 

Men and boys are responsible for entertaining thoughts and the actions those thoughts lead to. A girl, can however, play a role in planting an improper thought in the mind of a man. I have found in my life, that my ability to remove those thoughts quickly improves with practice and is practically to the point now where they don't even arise in the first place, but that was definitely a skill I had to train up.

Meditation has helped me immeasurably to control my thoughts.

 

It becomes a question of who is control- ones spirit  or one's hormones.

 

I used to think it would get easier as I got older, but it is still a struggle.

 

I don't think women understand this aspect of maleness very well.  The fact is that we have a very different hormonal structure than women and the General Authorities understand it perfectly.

 

I have been in the presence of GA's and seen their eyes divert when a beautiful woman walks by, and then come back without missing a beat.  I am glad they understand our problems.

[Senator]

I think you're drawing false assumptions about my OP. I'm pretty furious about the sexism in this article. I deeply object to the dual standards in this article. I will encourage all of my children to be modest in their appearance and behaviour for multiple reasons, mainly to encourage self-respect.

I will not, however, use false threats and guilt such as:

- You're walking porn

- You'll get, and deserve, the wrong type of partner

- You'll only get a "high quality" spouse if you're pure

All are very poor teaching tools, encourage negative self-image and give tacit endorsement to sexism and misogyny.

The article is terrible and quotes scripture that, in some cases, is taken from chapters that we otherwise reject wholesale.

Elder Callister, for example, selectively quotes from:

1 Tim 2:

Given Elder Callister claims to be delivering God's indisputable word on the matter, at what verse in the list above does Paul stop speaking God's doctrine and instead speaks his own opinion? V10? V11??

I find it somewhat ironic that in the opening paragraphs he sweeps aside the opinions of psychologists when the dominant view of morality is born less out of revealed doctrine and more out of Victorian prudishness. Attitudes which were, in part, influenced by the attitudes of psychologists of the era.

I find little doctrine in this article and instead personal opinion sprinkled with selective scripture.

(Does that help adjust the male:female balance mfbukowski?)

 

Geez...I wish you would just tell us how you really feel!!!

[canard78]

There is a pseudo-feminist notion going around that girls and women should be able to do whatever they want with zero consequences. But the simple truth is that choices and actions have consequences. I hear all the time of people who show up to a job interview in sloppy clothes, who are offended that the interviewer won't look past their appearance to see their amazing skills. (Oddly enough, those who are most offended often have worse skills than those who are genuinely clueless and accept the suggestion of better dress.)

In the same way, dating is basically an mutual extended job interview, the job being marriage. If a girl wants a faithful LDS priesthood holder, she needs to basically advertise that she is looking for that. It's really no different from when a guy gives a long list of desired qualities in a girl, and someone asks him if HE is the kind of person a girl like that would want.

So why does the article have double standards? Why are only the women specifically given this warning? It's an unfair pressure placed on one gender. It's sexism.

[bluebell]

Meditation has helped me immeasurably to control my thoughts.

 

It becomes a question of who is control- ones spirit  or one's hormones.

 

I used to think it would get easier as I got older, but it is still a struggle.

 

I don't think women understand this aspect of maleness very well.  The fact is that we have a very different hormonal structure than women and the General Authorities understand it perfectly.

 

I have been in the presence of GA's and seen their eyes divert when a beautiful woman walks by, and then come back without missing a beat.  I am glad they understand our problems.

 

Perhaps this is a good example of how important it is to have more women speaking and teaching in GC and devotionals as general authorities.  Women are in no less need of people who understand our problems than men are, and men have no better idea of what women face than women do of men.

[canard78]

Geez...I wish you would just tell us how you really feel!!!

I thought I'd keep the OP as neutral as possible to at least allow people to make their own minds up.

But yes, the second post above is how I really feel.

It makes me, and I would imagine many others, question whether this is the kind of environment I want to raise my daughter in. I shudder at the thought of this being used as material in YW classes she will start attending next year.

Elder Callister isn't "being brave" and "telling it how it is." He's imposing his personal view of the world on the church, amplified via one of the organisation's official mouthpieces. It's wrong and it's damaging.

[canard78]

Meditation has helped me immeasurably to control my thoughts.

It becomes a question of who is control- ones spirit or one's hormones.

I used to think it would get easier as I got older, but it is still a struggle.

I don't think women understand this aspect of maleness very well. The fact is that we have a very different hormonal structure than women and the General Authorities understand it perfectly.

I have been in the presence of GA's and seen their eyes divert when a beautiful woman walks by, and then come back without missing a beat. I am glad they understand our problems.

So teach both men and women to not letch. Teach them to notice and not stare.

Don't teach our daughters that they are "walking porn."

And teach the beauty of the atonement. Stop making people second class citizens if they have past transgressions.

[Senator]

I thought I'd keep the OP as neutral as possible to at least allow people to make their own minds up.

But yes, the second post above is how I really feel.

It makes me, and I would imagine many others, question whether this is the kind of environment I want to raise my daughter in. I shudder at the thought of this being used as material in YW classes she will start attending next year.

Elder Callister isn't "being brave" and "telling it how it is." He's imposing his personal view of the world on the church, amplified via one of the organisation's official mouthpieces. It's wrong and it's damaging.

Just remember that you are not required to believe everything that is said by anyone in any venue.

[JLHPROF]

Meditation has helped me immeasurably to control my thoughts.

 

It becomes a question of who is control- ones spirit  or one's hormones.

 

I used to think it would get easier as I got older, but it is still a struggle.

 

I don't think women understand this aspect of maleness very well.  The fact is that we have a very different hormonal structure than women and the General Authorities understand it perfectly.

 

I have been in the presence of GA's and seen their eyes divert when a beautiful woman walks by, and then come back without missing a beat.  I am glad they understand our problems.

 

I agree - it is part of the male nature to want to look at the immodestly dressed or even simply beautiful woman but we are still accountable to control ourselves.  I take comfort that two great men of God had the same challenge (both named Joseph) and managed to overcome.

 

'Whenever I see a pretty woman, I have to pray for grace - Joseph Smith

and

"And it came to pass about this time, that Joseph went into the house to do his business; and there was none of the men of the house there within.  And she caught him by his garment, saying, Lie with me: and he left his garment in her hand, and fled, and got him out." - Genesis 39:11-12

 

and we can always follow President Packers advice and sing a hymn to clear our thoughts (although as one person said, maybe not "There is Beauty All Around).

[Senator]

And teach the beauty of the atonement. Stop making people second class citizens if they have past transgressions.

I'm not quite sure how you have interpreted the article to be stating this?

[mfbukowski]

Perhaps this is a good example of how important it is to have more women speaking and teaching in GC and devotionals as general authorities.  Women are in no less need of people who understand our problems than men are, and men have no better idea of what women face than women do of men.

Couldn't agree more.  I see that is precisely why we are here to live in families.  As a philosophical principle I see this as an extension of the idea that we are to unify opposites- yin and yang, male and female etc.

 

I want to know as much about these differences as I can, but the bottom line is that you have to first recognize that there ARE DIFFERENCES.