Most Women Get The Type Of Man They Dress For - March 2014 Ensign

[Mystery Meat]

Taking extremes only surves to prove the rule.

[hoo rider]

On whose authority do you so regally claim we have "an unhealthy obsession with "modesty""  There are a goodly number of sane rational people who would disagree with you.

 

FWIW my wife currently serves as YW President.  She feels that many in the ward have an unhealthy obsession with modesty (particularly the modesty of others) which has hurt many of the YW she serves.

[Gray]

And some people obsessively seek for attention by dressing inappropriately.  There needs to be a balance and there are women who cross the line.  We had a teenager who was dressing like Christina Aguilera and it was very obscene looking.  I don't think it's too much to ask to dress respectully at church. 

 

Women who "cross the line" need kindness, not judgement. Often it's a self esteem thing, which isn't helped by judgement. 

[Gray]

On whose authority do you so regally claim we have "an unhealthy obsession with "modesty""  There are a goodly number of sane rational people who would disagree with you.

 

Sane rational people aren't immune from unhealthily obsessing about other people's bodies and clothing 

 

On whose authority? Are you asking me to make an argument from authority?

 

If you want an example I think the idea that four year olds can't wear sundresses or the notion that female angels depicted in art need to have their shoulders digitally covered.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Gray

[mtomm]

Haven't read the last few pages of comments but my teenage son certainly knew what his happy trail was and it didn't have anything to do with riding off into a western sunset.  
 

My point.  Women find men sexually attractive.  And guess what, you don't even have to be showing any skin.  We can lust after men wearing suits.  We can also lust after a man in a speedo (but that much less likely IMHO.)  Sometimes more is less.  But then that's just me and maybe some women find speedos attractive?  Oh, stop, I'm making my own point.

 

Here, here it is in a nutshell.  Thank you SU:

 

 

The fact of the matter is that no matter how a women dresses, she can still "influence" a man to become aroused. This creates unneeded guilt and shame in the woman that doesn't belong there. 

Edited February 19, 2014 by mtomm

[MorningStar]

Women who "cross the line" need kindness, not judgement. Often it's a self esteem thing, which isn't helped by judgement. 

Is there a way to kindly tell them that they are influencing young women who are using them as an excuse for what they should be allowed to wear? 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

The fact that an argument can be misused doesn't make it untrue, or irrelevant. 

 

No one here is proposing those things, why do you continue to argue that we are proposing them.

 

According to your logic, all arguments that have been misused in the past are automatically invalid.  If that were the case there could be no such thing as a valid argument.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

To further elaborate: Please show me how I am misusing the argument. This is a sincere request. You say that women should avoid doing "things" that might influence men to have bad thoughts. Please explain to me logically how I go about determining what those "things" are. Is it anything that might influence a man to have a bad thought? Is it things that influence more than 10% of men? 50% of men? Should the women have any say in the matter or should she just talk to some guys in her life to figure it out? What's the threshold? This is not an association fallacy. I am just trying to understand where you are coming from and why you draw the line at knee length skirts and not at full burqa's. Help me understand - please?

Edited February 19, 2014 by SeekingUnderstanding

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Is there a way to kindly tell them that they are influencing young women who are using them as an excuse for what they should be allowed to wear?

No. Absolutely not.

[Gray]

Is there a way to kindly tell them that they are influencing young women who are using them as an excuse for what they should be allowed to wear? 

 

There is no need to talk to women about how they are dressed, which isn't really anyone's business. The desire for social conformity would take care of any issues you have with her clothing eventually. 

 

Even if it didn't, it's not the end of the world if sister Smith's heels are an inch higher than you are personally comfortable with. It's really no one's business but her own. 

[hoo rider]

Is there a way to kindly tell them that they are influencing young women who are using them as an excuse for what they should be allowed to wear? 

 

No.  Women often take such comments as a personal insult, even when coming from a priesthood leader.   Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves. 

 

As an aside, sounds like a great opportunity to teach your daughter about personal revelation and personal righteousness.  

[Danzo]

"Judge not according to the appearance" should really stop these sorts of articles from ever being published. Unfortunately we have an unhealthy culture of judging based on superficiality and not on actual character.

 

Being judged by appearances is a fact of life (whether right or wrong).  Get used to it. If you are teaching people not to worry about appearances, you are doing them a disservice. 

[bluebell]

Women who "cross the line" need kindness, not judgement. Often it's a self esteem thing, which isn't helped by judgement. 

 

Someone has to judge in order to know whether or not anyone has 'crossed the line'.

 

Where does this idea that we can never ever make any kinds of negative judgments against anyone?  It's certainly not in the scriptures.

[Danzo]

If you can explain to me why you think the line should be drawn at the knees and not the ankles I'm listening.

Where did I say where the line should be?

Which post?

 

There is no line, modesty is culturally defined (and differently for different occasions).

Why do you need lines?

Why the obsession with the law of Moses?

[hoo rider]

Women who "cross the line" need kindness, not judgement. Often it's a self esteem thing, which isn't helped by judgement. 

 

 

Someone has to judge in order to know whether or not anyone has 'crossed the line'.

 

Where does this idea that we can never ever make any kinds of negative judgments against anyone?  It's certainly not in the scriptures.

 

You are right, everyone has to judge.  I think when we use the word "judge" we really mean vocalize/express judgment.  Generally it's not productive to tell the person about your judgment (unless you are serving as a Bishop and expressing judgment to someone in your ward).  I think the principle comes from the Savior's beam and mote teaching.  

[Danzo]

"Judge not according to the appearance" should really stop these sorts of articles from ever being published. Unfortunately we have an unhealthy culture of judging based on superficiality and not on actual character.

 

We live in a world were people are judged by appearances, Get over it.

If you tell people they don't, and if they believe you, you will be hurting them. 

[Deborah]

I haven't waded through all the responses here, but I think some are over-reacting to the article. Of course the way we dress affects how we behave and how others behave toward us. Does that mean we shouldn't look beyond the outer appearance? No, but it does mean first impressions have a tendency to stick.

 

Years ago there was a book called "Dress for Success." Anyone in business will tell you this is true. When my son was a teenager he had an earring and wore a tee shirt and sunglasses applying for jobs. He quickly learned if he wants a job he'd better dress like he wanted it. Out went the earring and he cleaned up his act.

 

Because one dresses seductively doesn't mean they are inviting rape and most men wouldn't even think this. But there are those sick individuals who don't need much incentive to go after someone whom they consider more available. Often someone just doesn't know that the way they look is showing poor esteem and often dressing trashy shows exactly that. And yes I know what I am talking about. As someone who has been single a long time and loved to go out and party with friends I have seen a lot of how one dresses affects the response of others.

 

The dress for success theme is still important as seen in this: http://www.dressforsuccess.org/
 

[Danzo]

Look, we live in a world were message are sent by what we where.

 

A police man has his uniform (it sends a message)

if I were to wear a police uniform I could be sent to jail for impersonating an officer (they will judge me based on the clothes I wear)

 

 

A Judge wears a uniform (it sends a message)

 

A doctor wears a uniform (it sends a message)

 

People make judgement about others based on clothing.

 

I wear a suit when I appear in court, if I showed up wearing shorts and a t shirt, it would send the wrong message. I will be judged negatively because it it.

 

If I wear a suit to the beach, I will probably be judged negatively because of it.

 

These are extreme examples, but we do send messages by what we wear.  It is entirely appropriate to teach our youth to be aware of the message that their clothing sends to others.

This isn't absolving anyone of any responsibility for their thoughts, this isn't blaming anyone for other peoples thoughts it is just the reality of the world we live in.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Danzo

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Where did I say where the line should be?

Which post?

 

There is no line, modesty is culturally defined (and differently for different occasions).

Why do you need lines?

Why the obsession with the law of Moses?

My apologies. The general guideline I've heard at church is knee length (perhaps from my BYU days). Perhaps I should get away from a line in the sand and just ask for some general guidlines.

So in your mind is it up to each individual? Can a bikini be modest? Since each individual has to draw the line somewhere what advise would you give? No one in this thread to date (that I've seen) seems to be able to give clear cut guidelines as to how a women should go about choosing an outfit that is safe. Plenty of people have pointed out that women should dress in a manner that doesn't influence the men in a negative way, so let's say I'm a clueless women that is just discovering this issue. How do I go about making wardrobe choices?

Elder Callister said "If it is too low or too high or too tight, it may prompt improper thoughts, even in the mind of a young man who is striving to be pure." How do I know if its too low, too high, or too tight?

Elder Oaks says " please understand that if you dress immodestly, you are magnifying this problem by becoming pornography to some of the men who see you."

How do I determine what is too low or too high or too tight? How do I avoid being walking pornography? Is it cultural modesty norms? Obviously not or we'd let our young women wear bikini's to the beach as they are very culturally acceptable. If the point is to avoid influencing men's thoughts in a negative way, why do you think different standards for different situations are okay? Isn't a bathing suit just as arousing at the beach as it is in a park?

No one on this thread has been able to answer these questions. That's fine. I don't know the answer either. Since it is impossible to determine what clothes will have what impact on what people, it would seem that this whole line of teaching about modesty should be avoided and perhaps we should focus on teaching our young women and young men to dress modestly as a way to respect their bodies.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Look, we live in a world were message are sent by what we where.

 

A police man has his uniform (it sends a message)

I were to wear a police uniform I could be sent to jail for impersonating an officer (they will judge me based on the clothes I wear)

 

 

A Judge wears a uniform (it send a message)

 

A doctor wears a uniform (it sends a message)

 

People make judgement about others based on clothing.

 

I wear a suit when I appear in court, if I showed up wearing shorts and a t shirt, it would send the wrong message. I will be judged negatively because it it.

 

If I wear a suit to the beach, I will probably be judged negatively because of it.

 

These are extreme examples, but we do send messages by what we wear.  It is entirely appropriate to teach our youth to be aware of the message that their clothing sends to others.

This isn't absolving anyone of any responsibility for their thoughts, this isn't blaming anyone for other peoples thoughts it is just the reality of the world we live in.

I disagree with nothing in this post. If we are just teaching our young woman to dress in a way that sends a positive message, I can get 100% on board with that.

[Sleeper Cell]

There is a way to do that without crossing into unhealthy territory. Currently as a culture we have an unhealthy obsession with "modesty"

 

As opposed to our “healthy” obsession over thirteen (13) words in a magazine article?

[T-Shirt]

No one on this thread has been able to answer these questions. That's fine. I don't know the answer either. Since it is impossible to determine what clothes will have what impact on what people, it would seem that this whole line of teaching about modesty should be avoided and perhaps we should focus on teaching our young women and young men to dress modestly as a way to respect their bodies.

Here is how the Church answers your question:

 

Immodest clothing is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. Young men and young women should be neat and clean and avoid being extreme or inappropriately casual in clothing, hairstyle, and behavior. They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports. The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord’s standards will not change.

Do not disfigure yourself with tattoos or body piercings. Young women, if you desire to have your ears pierced, wear only one pair of earrings.

Show respect for the Lord and yourself by dressing appropriately for Church meetings and activities. This is especially important when attending sacrament services. Young men should dress with dignity when officiating in the ordinance of the sacrament.

If you are not sure what is appropriate to wear, study the words of the prophets, pray for guidance, and ask your parents or leaders for help. Your dress and appearance now will help you prepare for the time when you will go to the temple to make sacred covenants with God. Ask yourself, “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?”

 

The Church, rarely gets really specific, and I think that is as it should be.

Edited February 19, 2014 by T-Shirt

[thesometimesaint]

Clothes serve essentially two functions. To keep us worm and not scare the public. Bikinis and burkas do neither.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Here is how the Church answers your question:

 

Immodest clothing is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. Young men and young women should be neat and clean and avoid being extreme or inappropriately casual in clothing, hairstyle, and behavior. They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports. The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord’s standards will not change.

Do not disfigure yourself with tattoos or body piercings. Young women, if you desire to have your ears pierced, wear only one pair of earrings.

Show respect for the Lord and yourself by dressing appropriately for Church meetings and activities. This is especially important when attending sacrament services. Young men should dress with dignity when officiating in the ordinance of the sacrament.

If you are not sure what is appropriate to wear, study the words of the prophets, pray for guidance, and ask your parents or leaders for help. Your dress and appearance now will help you prepare for the time when you will go to the temple to make sacred covenants with God. Ask yourself, “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?”

 

The Church, rarely gets really specific, and I think that is as it should be.

Which doesn't address the issue at hand. Elder Callister said "Our dress affects ... the thoughts and actions of others.... If it is too low or too high or too tight, it may prompt improper thoughts, even in the mind of a young man who is striving to be pure." This thread has many posts stating that women can negatively influence men's thoughts, that they should be aware of this and do everything they can not to create these negative thoughts in otherwise pure men.

Are you saying that if women follow the for strength of youth guidelines, they don't need to worry about prompting improper thoughts in pure young men? Are you saying that pure men never have improper thoughts about women that meet those guidelines?

ETA: Again my point is that teaching women that they might "prompt" men to have bad thoughts and become walking pornography is pointless. It is an impossible standard. Some women will "prompt" some men to have bad thoughts regardless of what they are wearing. The teaching causes needless guilt and body issues for women and is unnecessary to teach modesty. It ought to stop.

Edited February 19, 2014 by SeekingUnderstanding

[mercyngrace]

Clothes serve essentially two functions. To keep us worm and not scare the public. Bikinis and burkas do neither.

 

I prefer to think of my clothes as a chrysallis and myself as a butterfly to be.

 

j/k

[Gray]

As opposed to our “healthy” obsession over thirteen (13) words in a magazine article?

 

If I go so far as to airbrush it out of my Ensign, I'll let you know