Most Women Get The Type Of Man They Dress For - March 2014 Ensign

[wenglund]

I can only imagine the outrage were the Ensign to publish an article discouraging young men from wearing low-slung gang banger pants, and this by truthfully informing young men that such dress mimics prison garb symbolizing sexual accessibility to other men.

 

Oh...the horrors.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Gray]

So, you believe the scriptures in the BOM are contradicting themselves?  Maybe i'm misunderstanding but that's what you seem to be arguing.

 

My statement is not internally contradictory.  We don't judge how worthy someone is by what they wear.  We can judge how inappropriate an article of clothing is though, without making a judgment against the person wearing it.

 

Do you have children?

 

Sorry, what I was trying to say it's inconsistent to say you're not judging by appearances while judging people by what they are wearing.

 

Yes, I have a child, and no, I'm not concerned about him sitting behind a woman in church with bare shoulders or whatever. If someone gets upset over seeing something like that, the only way they'll be able to cope with life is by hiding in a bunker

Edited February 20, 2014 by Gray

[juliann]

I can only imagine the outrage were the Ensign to publish an article discouraging young men from wearing low-slung gang banger pants, and this by truthfully informing young men that such dress mimics prison garb symbolizing sexual accessibility to other men.

 

Oh...the horrors.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

http://www.snopes.com/risque/homosex/sagging.asp

While sagging did gain its start in the U.S. prison system, it was not a clothes-wearing style authored by imprisoned homosexuals intent upon advertising their interest in casual flings. Sagging pants became the behind-the-bars thing thanks to ill-fitting prison-issue garb: some of those incarcerated were provided with clothing a few sizes too large. That oversizing, coupled with the lack of belts in the big house, led to a great number of jailbirds whose pants were falling off their arses.

 

Edited February 20, 2014 by juliann

[bluebell]

Sorry, what I was trying to say it's inconsistent to say you're not judging by appearances while judging people by what they are wearing.

 

Yes, I have a child, and no, I'm not concerned about him sitting behind a woman in church with bare shoulders or whatever. If someone gets upset over seeing something like that, the only way they'll be able to cope with life is by hiding in a bunker

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

 

And i only asked about whether or not you had children because i've never come across a parent who thought it was inappropriate (or not their business) for them to teach their children why not to emulate someone they thought was being a bad example.  Since that was where the whole 'stripper shoe' thing started, i was trying to understand your point of view better. So thanks for clarifying.

 

[jkwilliams]

http://www.snopes.com/risque/homosex/sagging.asp

 

Stop confusing me with facts.

[Gray]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

 

And i only asked about whether or not you had children because i've never come across a parent who thought it was inappropriate (or not their business) for them to teach their children why not to emulate someone they thought was being a bad example.  Since that was where the whole 'stripper shoe' thing started, i was trying to understand your point of view better. So thanks for clarifying.

 

 

All good parents teach their children what they think to be right 

 

The comment about "not your business" was referring to telling other people (not your children) what to wear. Of course what your children wear is your business as long as they are children. Not that your children are any of my business.

 

 

 

Thanks

Edited February 20, 2014 by Gray

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In March 2014 Ensign we have the following statement:

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-march-2014/2014-03-00-ensign-eng.pdf

As the father of an 11-year-old girl I of course encourage her to dress modestly. But I'm disturbed by the message that: "...most women get the type of man they dress for."

So if a woman who wears a short dress or low top ends up in an abusive relationship, is it her fault? Did she get the man she dressed for?

I don't see your point, are you suggesting that all men who are attracted to such are abusive? Btw, any man with a pulse and attracted to women find such attractive...therein lies much of the problem. This is why fathers with daughters are concerned with such dress and why few want theirs wives dressed this way, they know how men are. A friend of my daughter once showed up dressed inappropriate whom I had known all her life...I told her, your mom and dad are not home are they, she replied "no". I said, you know I love you sweetie, so go home and change and then you can go with my daughter to the mall! She thanked me for that later at her wedding reception...for telling her to do that and for not telling her parents. True story...many times our children push the limits just to see if we still care enough to say anything. Children have an often unrealized yearning for us to set limits. We as parents are not judged as to how or what our children decide when they grow up, only as to what we teach them growing up. This even applies to boys, unless my boys were playing sports, they were not allowed to go shirtless, and never t-shirts without sleeves. Even now, all are adults and none dare come around their parents dressed otherwise.

[Rockerwife]

I love high heels.  I almost always wear heels to church or other occasions where i dress up.    

 

'Hooker shoes' are not simply high-heeled shoes though.  They are a specific kind of extremely high heeled platform shoe which are also worn by strippers and sometimes hookers.

 

Here is how one person on yahoo-answers defined the term "stripper shoe"

 

"They are usually referring to 6" stilettos with a platform sole, usually strappy with open toes. They also often times are clear heels and platforms, but not always. The advantage of them is that men love to see women in them, they make our legs look long, lean, and very toned. I own several pairs, but they aren't for going out, they are strictly bedroom wear. I can walk around in them, but don't like to for extended periods of time."

 

These are the kinds of shoes MS was talking about.  And yes, i have actually seen these a few times on women at church.  My only thought was, "I hope she doesn't hurt herself."  I snickered to no one and certainly didn't mention anything out loud.

 

If it had been someone serving in YW's though, and i had a daughter in YW's, I would have quietly mentioned to her that regardless of the example that sister so and so was setting (who we know is a wonderful woman who can teach you lots of good things, etc...), those shoes are not acceptable for church.

 

Yes, I can see a difference...although I don't think some of the shoes from that pinterest board should be considered stripper shoes.  I think some of them are cute.

 

I think that as fellow members of a ward family, we could try to look beyond what we perceive as stripper shoes (or insert other perceived immodest choices) and see that everyone is on a different place on the path of this earthly life.

 

Last night at our Young Women activity, (I am the Mia-maid counselor) we had a non-member Mia-maid aged young women join us at our activity.  This young women has piercings and other choices in fashion that do not fit in to our modesty standards.  But I watched her as she was surrounded by the Young Women in our ward, accepted by them, and loved by them, I thought about this thread and the article in the Ensign and the realization hit me that as I teach the young women about standards, that I need to keep in mind that standards are best taught by example.  

 

I just wish that teaching that "most women get the type of man they dress for" and teaching young men that they should shun young women who dress immodestly should be replaced with:

 

"We need to teach girls AND boys to dress in clothing that is respectful to their bodies, and that allows them to participate in the activities they would like to participate in without constantly worrying about their clothing, and that modesty has more to do with our intentions than it does how many inches of skin we show. We need to teach girls AND boys that it is normal and natural to be attracted to each other, that those feelings are good. We need to teach them how to control impulses, how to be respectful to each other and not objectify others. We should teach both boys and girls that they have worth beyond how they look. We should teach them to set goals and reach for them. We should teach them to listen to each other, and respect each other’s boundaries." (This is a quote from Alliegator from Feminist Mormon Housewives) (I'm outing myself as a bit of a feminist with this quote, but there it is)

[BCSpace]

Remember statues and paintings of naked men or women back in time where they were looked at as magnificent, not something smutty, or shameful.

 

Yet unfortunately, the same statues and artwork would be covered or modified before being displayed at, say, BYU or in a Church magazine lest one become overwhelmed by their 'magnificence'.

Edited February 20, 2014 by BCSpace

[BCSpace]

With some men, you could point to an empty refrigerator box and say there is a woman in it and they would have inappropriate thoughts.

 

Yes, and many would do the same the instant a girl made eye contact and smiled or sang with a clear beautiful voice.  And I'd be willing to bet I could generate inappropriate thoughts in women by showing them this very innocuous video:

 

 

My point being that concerns about modesty is just the tip of the iceberg and sometimes miss the mark.

Edited February 20, 2014 by BCSpace

[cinepro]

Yes, and many would do the same the instant a girl made eye contact and smiled or sang with a clear beautiful voice.  And I'd be willing to bet I could generate inappropriate thoughts in women by showing them this very innocuous video:

 

 

My point being that concerns about modesty is just the tip of the iceberg and sometimes miss the mark.

 

 

Ironically, they were married IRL.  And then divorced....

[bluebell]

Yes, I can see a difference...although I don't think some of the shoes from that pinterest board should be considered stripper shoes.  I think some of them are cute.

 

I think that as fellow members of a ward family, we could try to look beyond what we perceive as stripper shoes (or insert other perceived immodest choices) and see that everyone is on a different place on the path of this earthly life.

 

Last night at our Young Women activity, (I am the Mia-maid counselor) we had a non-member Mia-maid aged young women join us at our activity.  This young women has piercings and other choices in fashion that do not fit in to our modesty standards.  But I watched her as she was surrounded by the Young Women in our ward, accepted by them, and loved by them, I thought about this thread and the article in the Ensign and the realization hit me that as I teach the young women about standards, that I need to keep in mind that standards are best taught by example.  

 

I just wish that teaching that "most women get the type of man they dress for" and teaching young men that they should shun young women who dress immodestly should be replaced with:

 

"We need to teach girls AND boys to dress in clothing that is respectful to their bodies, and that allows them to participate in the activities they would like to participate in without constantly worrying about their clothing, and that modesty has more to do with our intentions than it does how many inches of skin we show. We need to teach girls AND boys that it is normal and natural to be attracted to each other, that those feelings are good. We need to teach them how to control impulses, how to be respectful to each other and not objectify others. We should teach both boys and girls that they have worth beyond how they look. We should teach them to set goals and reach for them. We should teach them to listen to each other, and respect each other’s boundaries." (This is a quote from Alliegator from Feminist Mormon Housewives) (I'm outing myself as a bit of a feminist with this quote, but there it is)

 

I don't disagree with anything that you said.  I've always been vocal on this board about how teaching women that they should be modest for boys is not good. You don't have to consider yourself a feminist to find things to disagree with in this article.

 

And we do have a few feminists on the board already so you'll find company if you hang around.  

[mercyngrace]

Not sure if this link will work but a video showed up in my FB feed today that reminded me of this thread...

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10202395910432817

[mfbukowski]

I can only imagine the outrage were the Ensign to publish an article discouraging young men from wearing low-slung gang banger pants, and this by truthfully informing young men that such dress mimics prison garb symbolizing sexual accessibility to other men.

 

Oh...the horrors.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Since we have to be unisex about modesty and since women don't care what men think about, I am mystified why this fashion statement hasn't caught on with the no-longer-fairer sex.

 

I guess they are just too conservative still.  Oh well I am sure it will change.

 

And since we should not judge each other for the kinds of clothes we wear, I am sure all the young sister returning missionaries will be very interested in dating these guys.  Modesty doesn't matter after all any more.

 

Surely most men should not get the type of woman they dress for.

Edited February 22, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

 

My point being that concerns about modesty is just the tip of the iceberg and sometimes miss the mark.

He should have kept his swash buckled.

[mfbukowski]

Yes, I can see a difference...although I don't think some of the shoes from that pinterest board should be considered stripper shoes.  I think some of them are cute.

 

Isn't "some" a great word?

[mfbukowski]

error

Edited February 22, 2014 by mfbukowski

[ERayR]

Sorry, what I was trying to say it's inconsistent to say you're not judging by appearances while judging people by what they are wearing.

 

Yes, I have a child, and no, I'm not concerned about him sitting behind a woman in church with bare shoulders or whatever. If someone gets upset over seeing something like that, the only way they'll be able to cope with life is by hiding in a bunker

 

IMNSHO judging by appearance may be alright. If someone continuously portrays an image that you don't, personally, don't want to portray it just might be prudent not to associate with them.

[mormonnewb]

I can only imagine the outrage were the Ensign to publish an article discouraging young men from wearing low-slung gang banger pants, and this by truthfully informing young men that such dress mimics prison garb symbolizing sexual accessibility to other men.

Oh...the horrors.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

http://www.snopes.com/risque/homosex/sagging.asp

While sagging did gain its start in the U.S. prison system, it was not a clothes-wearing style authored by imprisoned homosexuals intent upon advertising their interest in casual flings. Sagging pants became the behind-the-bars thing thanks to ill-fitting prison-issue garb: some of those incarcerated were provided with clothing a few sizes too large. That oversizing, coupled with the lack of belts in the big house, led to a great number of jailbirds whose pants were falling off their arses.

Perhaps, this best demonstrates the problem with judging others by their clothing. Your prejudice might lead you to a faulty conclusion of the "statement" that someone is making with their clothing. For example, you might think that someone's "sagging" pants are a statement about their sexual proclivities or their affinity for the prison culture when, in fact, it actually indicates that they can't afford a belt (or just forgot to wear one that day). And given that these faulty conclusions can be deadly in the cases of, say, a hoodie or loud "rap crap", perhaps the Ensign should publish an article telling us to be less quick to judge by appearances.

Edited February 22, 2014 by mormonnewb

[thesometimesaint]

The Touch of the Master's Hand

'Twas battered and scarred,
And the auctioneer thought it
hardly worth his while
To waste his time on the old violin,
but he held it up with a smile.

"What am I bid, good people", he cried,
"Who starts the bidding for me?"
"One dollar, one dollar, Do I hear two?"
"Two dollars, who makes it three?"
"Three dollars once, three dollars twice, going for three,"

But, No,
From the room far back a gray bearded man
Came forward and picked up the bow,
Then wiping the dust from the old violin
And tightening up the strings,
He played a melody, pure and sweet
As sweet as the angel sings.

The music ceased and the auctioneer
With a voice that was quiet and low,
Said "What now am I bid for this old violin?"
As he held it aloft with its' bow.

"One thousand, one thousand, Do I hear two?"
"Two thousand, Who makes it three?"
"Three thousand once, three thousand twice,
Going and gone", said he.

The audience cheered,
But some of them cried,
"We just don't understand."
"What changed its' worth?"
Swift came the reply.
"The Touch of the Masters Hand."

And many a man with life out of tune
All battered with bourbon and gin
Is auctioned cheap to a thoughtless crowd
Much like that old violin

A mess of pottage, a glass of wine,
A game and he travels on.
He is going once, he is going twice,
He is going and almost gone.

But the Master comes,
And the foolish crowd never can quite understand,
The worth of a soul and the change that is wrought
By the Touch of the Masters' Hand.

Myra Brooks Welch

[mfbukowski]

Perhaps, this best demonstrates the problem with judging others by their clothing. Your prejudice might lead you to a faulty conclusion of the "statement" that someone is making with their clothing. For example, you might think that someone's "sagging" pants are a statement about their sexual proclivities or their affinity for the prison culture when, in fact, it actually indicates that they can't afford a belt (or just forgot to wear one that day). And given that these faulty conclusions can be deadly in the cases of, say, a hoodie or loud "rap crap", perhaps the Ensign should publish an article telling us to be less quick to judge by appearances.

I feel bad about giving you a hard time and apologize.

 

I get too wound up sometimes.  We are in the same boat all trying to figure this stuff out.

Edited February 22, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mormonnewb]

I feel bad about giving you a hard time and apologize.

 

I get too wound up sometimes.  We are in the same boat all trying to figure this stuff out.

Thanks, but no need to apologize. I'm sure that I've been twice as offensive as offended.

Besides, this is what I like best about the board -- the opportunity to work out all (or at least MOST) of my contentiousness here, so that I don't drag it with me to Sunday School.

[mercyngrace]

Mofems weigh in. http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/2014/02/why-my-socks-did-not-get-me-a-good-husband-or-rape-culture-101/

[Calm]

Perhaps, this best demonstrates the problem with judging others by their clothing. Your prejudice might lead you to a faulty conclusion of the "statement" that someone is making with their clothing. For example, you might think that someone's "sagging" pants are a statement about their sexual proclivities or their affinity for the prison culture when, in fact, it actually indicates that they can't afford a belt (or just forgot to wear one that day). And given that these faulty conclusions can be deadly in the cases of, say, a hoodie or loud "rap crap", perhaps the Ensign should publish an article telling us to be less quick to judge by appearances.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/charity-never-faileth?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/youth/video/stop-judging-others?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/04/developing-good-judgment-and-not-judging-others?lang=eng

Edited February 22, 2014 by calmoriah

[frank_jessop]

I believe teaching modesty is important. I do not believe using, in part, a "blame the victim" approach is a good way to teach modesty nor a healthy reason for a person to choose act and dress with modesty.

Edited February 22, 2014 by frank_jessop