ERayR Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 I'll never understand the idea that disagreeing with someone is a result of a bad attitude. If someone says something I disagree with or find harmful, I don't see anything wrong in expressing my opinion. It doesn't mean I have a pessimistic view. Its not the opinion nor disagreement, but the attitude. Without going back there were some who felt he should not have spoken on this timely problem. That he should not express his opinion.
jkwilliams Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 Its not the opinion nor disagreement, but the attitude. Without going back there were some who felt he should not have spoken on this timely problem. That he should not express his opinion. He can say what he wants, but I don't blame anyone for finding his remarks troubling. I did. But then I have a bad attitude.,
Calm Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 What I found rather interesting is that the rest of the article dealt with the subjects in a rather generic way, which I feel is entirely appropriate given that girls and women may have issues with porn (either visual or written) and "self-abuse" just as boys and men do even if currently it appears that men are significantly more likely to; females certainly have the ability to have inappropriate thoughtsas well as all the other issues though historically from what I hear, men have gotten counselled much more about those aspects than women have so I see the inclusion of warning of women about such potential hazards as a wise step. I think it is important for girls to be aware of the potential harm and not get the impression that they are somehow exempt or protected from such due to no one talking to them about making an effort to avoid such sins and avenues to sin.But then while there was a generic sentence of introduction and a sentence in the middle about both men and women dressing modestly, the rest of the short immodest dress section was very much focused on women, including a scripture and a comment on how women's dress can impact a man's mind powerfully as if it can't do the same for a woman (the man's dress), finishing off with the soundbite of the female specific 'getting the man she dresses for'.It comes across to me as either having a lack of familiarity with the way female minds can dwell on appearance and modesty or the lack there of in men or dismissing the importance of that impact which by its absence inflates the importance of the impact of women's appearance on men.
mfbukowski Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 'Cause there's nothing creepy or condescending about men telling women how to dress for men... And certainly nothing vain about men thinking women dress for them.I was just comparing how the Catholics dealt with a similar situation- without agreeing or disagreeing. It seemed like they would not have blinked at Elder C's comment- right or wrong.
mfbukowski Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 And certainly nothing vain about men thinking women dress for them.And of course LDS women never wear lingerie or give it at wedding showers. 1
mfbukowski Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 He can say what he wants, but I don't blame anyone for finding his remarks troubling. I did. But then I have a bad attitude., Nah, you just know the babes like guys who pretend to be sensitive. JUST KIDDING - NO DEATH THREATS PLEASE. 1
jkwilliams Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 And of course LDS women never wear lingerie or give it at wedding showers. We had a special priesthood meeting in my married-student ward at BYU during which our bishop railed against unrighteous husbands who bought lingerie for their wives. He said, and I quote, "We do not want our wives to dress up like Hollywood hookers!" I was glad that it is usually my wife who buys the lingerie.
guerreiro9 Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 I liked the article and think even the part about women getting the man they dress for is true in general.(Ducks and covers waiting for stones to be thrown)-guerreiro9 1
ERayR Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 He can say what he wants, but I don't blame anyone for finding his remarks troubling. I did. But then I have a bad attitude., Does your family call you Yosemite Sam. Mine does.
jkwilliams Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 Does your family call you Yosemite Sam. Mine does. My family says I'm too conciliatory and too altruistic. I'm only an evil contrarian on the boards, I guess.
mercyngrace Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 And of course LDS women never wear lingerie or give it at wedding showers. Newsflash: Lingerie makes women feel sexy. My (albeit limited) experience is that men prefer to see it in a heap on the floor. Although, if you're into wearing it, well, who am I to judge.... 1
Anteojito Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 Newsflash: Lingerie makes women feel sexy. My (albeit limited) experience is that men prefer to see it in a heap on the floor. Although, if you're into wearing it, well, who am I to judge....
mfbukowski Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 Newsflash: Lingerie makes women feel sexy. My (albeit limited) experience is that men prefer to see it in a heap on the floor. Although, if you're into wearing it, well, who am I to judge.... Dang it.You weren't supposed to tell
jkwilliams Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 Newsflash: Lingerie makes women feel sexy. My (albeit limited) experience is that men prefer to see it in a heap on the floor. Although, if you're into wearing it, well, who am I to judge.... Heh. I'm agnostic about lingerie: I like it when it's on my wife and when it's off.
The Nehor Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 We had a special priesthood meeting in my married-student ward at BYU during which our bishop railed against unrighteous husbands who bought lingerie for their wives. He said, and I quote, "We do not want our wives to dress up like Hollywood hookers!" I was glad that it is usually my wife who buys the lingerie.This bishop needs to stop shaming my kinks. I would be perfectly content to have my wife dress as a Hollywood hooker......though I honestly prefer the English hooker look. Did he have a stance on that?And certainly nothing vain about men thinking women dress for them.It may be vain but it is true and if you reverse the genders it is also true.
pogi Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) It may be vain but it is true and if you reverse the genders it is also true. I don't think that women actually dress for men, no, they dress to be seen by other women. While the results may be that they attract the men, the satisfaction comes from being better dressed than all of the other women. Am I right ladies? When a woman enters a room, she doesn't look around to see which men are checking her out, but she looks around to see which women are better dressed, then she secretly wants to squish that woman. Edited February 26, 2014 by pogi
pogi Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) And certainly nothing vain about men thinking women dress for them. I'll tell you what is vain: Isaiah 3 16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: 17 Therefore the LORD will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts. 18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, 19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, 20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, 21 The rings, and nose jewels, 22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, 23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails. All of those round tires, mufflers, and hoods are a little over the top don't you think? Sure, cars are sexy, but that is just too far! Edited February 26, 2014 by pogi 2
Calm Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 I don't think that women actually dress for men, no, they dress to be seen by other women. While the results may be that they attract the men, the satisfaction comes from being better dressed than all of the other women. Am I right ladies? When a woman enters a room, she doesn't look around to see which men are checking her out, but she looks around to see which women are better dressed, then she secretly wants to squish that woman.I think many women dress for themselves (I am one of those which is why no one ever saw me in a dress except at church in my high school days and my closet right now has three skirts and no dresses and they are all ankle length so I never have to wear hose), others dress to be seen by other women and others dress to be seen by men and others, the largest group probably, vary their choice among the three depending on how they are feeling and what they are doing.
pogi Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 I think many women dress for themselves (I am one of those which is why no one ever saw me in a dress except at church in my high school days and my closet right now has three skirts and no dresses and they are all ankle length so I never have to wear hose), others dress to be seen by other women and others dress to be seen by men and others, the largest group probably, vary their choice among the three depending on how they are feeling and what they are doing. I would agree with that. I have just heard this sentiment from a lot of women and found it to be a funny insight. My wife is actually scared to dress really nice around other women because she feels their eyes burning into her as they look her up and down. When she wants to make friends with other girls, she is sure to dress less then them so as to not be threatening. I thought that was so funny, but she really does it.
The Nehor Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 I don't think that women actually dress for men, no, they dress to be seen by other women. While the results may be that they attract the men, the satisfaction comes from being better dressed than all of the other women. Am I right ladies? When a woman enters a room, she doesn't look around to see which men are checking her out, but she looks around to see which women are better dressed, then she secretly wants to squish that woman. They dress for both actually. Once women are married they are not usually as concerned with turning male heads and then they tend to switch to women. At least that is what my female coworkers tell me. Your mileage may vary.
mercyngrace Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 I'll tell you what is vain: Isaiah 3 16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: 17 Therefore the LORD will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts. 18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, 19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, 20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, 21 The rings, and nose jewels, 22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, 23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails. All of those round tires, mufflers, and hoods are a little over the top don't you think? Sure, cars are sexy, but that is just too far! I agree totally, Pogi. The scriptures seem quite obsessed with materialism and its accompanying vice, pride. In fact, as I've participated in this thread, the phrase running through my head has been "This is such a first world discussion". We obsess over hemlines and bare shoulders. We gasp over low necklines and midriff baring tankinis. . Other people drink dirty water, go hungry, and wear rags - the western world's hand-me-downs. What luxurious lives we must lead to be so consumed with how we look. How much time we must have on our hands to waste it on lustful fantasies or planning an attention-getting wardrobe. Vanity of vanities. 3
frank_jessop Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 I thought the following was nice way of addressing the statement: askgramps.orgModesty should be grounded in our knowledge of a loving Father, whom we wish to respect and worship with humility and a willingness to sacrifice. Though we largely talk about modesty in terms of a woman’s dress, it is a much more encompassing principle that we minimize when we reduce it to dress. We send a mixed message when we criticize a person for her dress, but praise another for his tailored suit, fancy car, and excessively large house. Modesty is an important principle that should be taught, but it should be taught in a way that empowers and inspires, and like all things in the gospel, it should point to Christ. Our teaching needs to reflect a proper understanding of agency, accountability, atonement, love, bodies, temples, sacrifice and spirit. Instead of teaching that the body is something sinful, or something to be ashamed of, we should embrace it as a sacred gift from God and treat it accordingly.
ERayR Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 I agree totally, Pogi. The scriptures seem quite obsessed with materialism and its accompanying vice, pride. In fact, as I've participated in this thread, the phrase running through my head has been "This is such a first world discussion". We obsess over hemlines and bare shoulders. We gasp over low necklines and midriff baring tankinis. . Other people drink dirty water, go hungry, and wear rags - the western world's hand-me-downs. What luxurious lives we must lead to be so consumed with how we look. How much time we must have on our hands to waste it on lustful fantasies or planning an attention-getting wardrobe. Vanity of vanities. It is a good thing the western world is in a position to have "hand-me-downs" else where would they be?
Calm Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 I thought the following was nice way of addressing the statement: askgramps.orgNice find.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) I haven't been much interested in contributing to (or even reading) this thread, but I just noticed that Daniel Peterson on his blog raised a good question and provided a link. The question is this: Would there have been the same reaction had the point been voiced by a California fashion writer instead of Elder Callister? Here's the link (and please pardon me if this has already been raised on this thread; I'm not inclined to search back through 23 pages of posts just to ensure I'm not duplicating something): http://www.examiner.com/article/what-does-your-outfit-say-about-you Edited March 4, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
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