President Monson Issued A Court Summons? Is This For Real?

[juliann]

 

 

 

So the Crown would have to demonstrate that:

• TSM personally made or caused to be made the claims listed in the summons
• the claims listed in the summons are, in fact, untrue or misleading
• TSM knows them to be untrue or misleading or knows that they might be untrue or misleading
• TSM knowingly misled Mr. Bloor for the purpose of making a gain "for himself or another" or causing Mr. Bloor a loss.

As much as I disapprove of frivolous and malicious lawsuits, part of me would actually like to see this go to trial. I would love to see the prosecution try to prove that Joseph Smith did not translate the Book of Mormon from gold plates.

 

Not knowing a thing about British law, of course....it would seem that they would also have to demonstrate that tithing was paid for no other reason than the listed reasons and that no one received any tangible benefit from tithing.  If you went to BYU, you benefited from tithing, if you participated in anything like Scouts in church bldgs, if you used church property for personal events or social events, etc.

[MorningStar]

This is dumb.  Way dumb.

[Bart Burk]

Dumbest thing I've ever seen.  All religions could be brought to court on something if this succeeds.

[juliann]

This could get ugly for the church PR if charges are also filed in Germany and France against President Monson.  People love a good scandal and don't seem to care if the charges have any legitimatcy behind them

From scanning reactions, a surprising amount of disaffected/ex Mormons are concerned about the image this will give them.  Especially since the complaint is relying on "doctrinal" stances that Mormons don't necessarily believe or even take a stand on. In other words, the Toms are actually more fundamentalistic than believers.

 

And the idea that the church knew the content of the lawsuit (perhaps that could be used as proof of their supernatural ability)  and started frantically churning out the recent statements is such grasping at straws... not to mention proof of the self-aggrandizement that seems to go along with such things.   It is also a good demonstration of the cost of ignoring or relying on mockery of refutations of their own positions.  Just throwing up another disagreement to avoid that may work online but expecting to expect a court to throw out anything they demonize as "apologetics" as well seems risky.

[MiserereNobis]

This reminds me of the various attempts people have made in European countries to charge the Pope (one was crimes against humanity, if I remember correctly).  Like I said before, it's helpful to have an independent state (Vatican City) to protect His Holiness against the possibility of something going amuck this way.

[InactiveLDS141]

My guess is, the courts dismiss this in short order as without merit and outside the scope of law.

Not knowing how British law works, of course, but this is what I suspect will occur.

[Calm]

This must be Tom Phillips's long-awaited "October Surprise." What a loser.

Precisely said.

[Kenngo1969]

This is dumb.  Way dumb.

 

Dumbest thing I've ever seen.  All religions could be brought to court on something if this succeeds.

 

Ya think?

[Duncan]

my EQ Pres' uncle is John Zackrison who used to be the European Legal counsel for the Church, I emailed him the link and look forward to getting his response on it

 

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=24188237

[ALarson]

In reading some of what's been posted online, I found this interesting:

 

It looks like Tom only needs to show that Pres. Monson knew the representations "might not be true" not that he actually believed they were false

First, this is a document created and signed by a district judge. This is not a Complaint (as to what americans are used to reading which is written by the alleging party). This is good because this means a District Judge has actually looked at some evidence and has decided there is validity. Huge..huge...huge.

I've been reading on the cps website and have come across some good stuff. Here are the guidelines. http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/frau ... troduction

I also find it interesting that the Summons limits the false representations to a very specific time period and to a very specific person. This again goes to show that the Judge who signed the Summons was presented with some very specific evidence (emails perhaps).

Another important point is that unlike US fraud cases, UK law simply requires the representations to be untrue and that the Accused knew the representations "might not be true".

Through discovery I don't think this would be that hard to prove considering all the money and resources the church has spent in archeology, dna, ect. Plus, any documents they have vaulted up and sealed that you would presume the prophet knows about.

 

 

Many are also posting that they plan to subpoena documents, etc., from the church archives for this case.  I hope it doesn't get that far.

 

Also, here's a link to some information on what constitutes fraud in the UK:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/crossheading/fraud

[canard78]

On behalf of my entire country, I'd like to apologise for our UK legal system allowing for this and a British member thinking this is anything more than an utter waste of time and money.

 

This is the October Surprise???!!!!

 

I have to say, I'm certainly surprised. I never thought it would be something so utterly lame given the hype built up about it.

[Avatar4321]

This might be interesting to watch. It's been a while since we had a Prophet called to Court. I keep thinking of Nephi being brought before the judges judges.

 

Are these criminal fraud claims or is it a civil fraud claim?

[Avatar4321]

As silly as this all is, I'm still grabbing my popcorn to see how this plays out.

 

I actually am too.

[Avatar4321]

This could get ugly for the church PR if charges are also filed in Germany and France against President Monson.  People love a good scandal and don't seem to care if the charges have any legitimatcy behind them

 

All they will do is kicking us closer to heaven:)

[Abulafia]

I know Steve and Chris personally, and I didn't know about this. I have to be honest and say that I don't quite know what to make of it, despite wading through a ton of threads on the subject.

What *is* interesting to me is that some evangelicals have commented on fb stating they feel uncomfortable, particularly with the 6000 year old earth, because that is something their faith has taught, and it could rebound on them. So it has brought up some interesting discussion with evangelicals reflecting on their own faith tradition.

[Avatar4321]

Tell me, did President Monson even know the people who are making the allegations? Because it's hard to commit fraud to complete strangers.

[David T]

I know Elder Holland knew at least Tom Phillips, who was a Stake President. The others, I believe, were Bishops at some point. Not that a personal relationship is relevant when acting as CEO of a corporation presenting information.

Edited February 4, 2014 by David T

[The Nehor]

"Mr Philips, you were told that tithing was a prerequisite to reach heaven."

"Yes."

"After you died."

"Yes."

"Court adjourned until Mr. Philips is dead and we can ascertain the destination of his soul."

"Next case."

[EllenMaksoud]

Just another plonker (floater in the toilet), vainly trying to invent a lame excuse to blame others for his lack of morality.

[MichelleD]

Do the 70 and mission president fit into this anywhere? Was it Tom Phillips who claimed to be meeting secretly with them or was he not involved with that? Just wondering because I saw it posted elsewhere that Phillips has copies of emails that support his case.

[Nevo]

.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[MichelleD]

Just another plonker (floater in the toilet), vainly trying to invent a lame excuse to blame others for his lack of morality.

Now that's not very nice. Do you know Tom Phillips personally?

[MichelleD]

No, that was Grant Palmer. I can understand why you would confuse him with Tom Phillips, though. They're both a piece of work.

Oh that's right. It was Grant Palmer. Wonder if they are working together at all? I'm just curious as to who could be his witnesses and who obtained the supposed emails. I'm hoping he has nothing and this whole case will be thrown out!

[why me]

I know Steve and Chris personally, and I didn't know about this. I have to be honest and say that I don't quite know what to make of it, despite wading through a ton of threads on the subject.

 

There is nothing to make of it. But it will be interesting to see just where all this ends up. But it doesn't look good for exmormons. They will seem pretty petty. I can understand why family members of such exmembers may not be pleased with such exmormons. Sadly, when one does this and when one still has family members who are members, it cannot help the relationship. But...it is really not my business. But this all does seem rather petty.

Edited February 4, 2014 by why me

[halconero]

This might be interesting to watch. It's been a while since we had a Prophet called to Court. I keep thinking of Nephi being brought before the judges judges.

Are these criminal fraud claims or is it a civil fraud claim?

Criminal. But it's complicated. The UK, and many commonwealth countries have "private prosecution," aka the UK legal system isn't charging him, a private citizen is.