Thee, Thy, Thou - Archaic English - Essential To L D S Prayer

[Five Solas]

When I was growing up LDS, we were taught some curious things.  Among them, that we must use archaic pronouns when addressing “Heavenly Father” in prayer.  The reason was these pronouns supposedly expressed the reverence and formality due God.

 

My sister & her husband (devout LDS) pray in this manner and have likewise instructed their kids—who (most of the time) dutifully bow their heads, fold their arms and via their speech turn the clock back to William Tyndale & early 16th century England.

 

It’s led to some interesting conversation because her kids have picked up the fact our family also prays but without following LDS protocol, and that’s lead to questions.  My sister provides the same explanation I heard growing up—use of thee, thou, etc. is the formal, reverent way to address God and therefore my family doesn’t do it right (albeit in a gentle way which doesn’t produce tension among young cousins—which I appreciate).

 

AS it happens, the truth is exactly 100% the opposite.  Those pronouns were never formal—they were always informal for casual speech as you would have with a friend (“you” is formal).  The ancient Greek language of the New Testament had no distinction of formal vs. informal pronouns.  And as David Daniell explains in his remarkable history of the English language Bible, The Bible in English—Tyndale was faced with a choice, and he deliberately chose the informal pronouns to make the theological point that the reader could have a close personal relationship with God.  And the King James Version translators persisted those pronouns—even though by 1611 they had already fallen into disuse in the vernacular. 

 

White is black, up is down, and informal is formal.  Her children have no idea the air of religious solemnity they create is antithetical to the actual meaning of their words, to say nothing of the intent of Tyndale or the KJV translators.

 

Here’s a question for the board: Should they know?  If not, why not?

 

--Erik

 

[teddyaware]

When I was growing up LDS, we were taught some curious things.  Among them, that we must use archaic pronouns when addressing “Heavenly Father” in prayer.  The reason was these pronouns supposedly expressed the reverence and formality due God.

 

My sister & her husband (devout LDS) pray in this manner and have likewise instructed their kids—who (most of the time) dutifully bow their heads, fold their arms and via their speech turn the clock back to William Tyndale & early 16th century England.

 

It’s led to some interesting conversation because her kids have picked up the fact our family also prays but without following LDS protocol, and that’s lead to questions.  My sister provides the same explanation I heard growing up—use of thee, thou, etc. is the formal, reverent way to address God and therefore my family doesn’t do it right (albeit in a gentle way which doesn’t produce tension among young cousins—which I appreciate).

 

AS it happens, the truth is exactly 100% the opposite.  Those pronouns were never formal—they were always informal for casual speech as you would have with a friend (“you” is formal).  The ancient Greek language of the New Testament had no distinction of formal vs. informal pronouns.  And as David Daniell explains in his remarkable history of the English language Bible, The Bible in English—Tyndale was faced with a choice, and he deliberately chose the informal pronouns to make the theological point that the reader could have a close personal relationship with God.  And the King James Version translators persisted those pronouns—even though by 1611 they had already fallen into disuse in the vernacular. 

 

White is black, up is down, and informal is formal.  Her children have no idea the air of religious solemnity they create is antithetical to the actual meaning of their words, to say nothing of the intent of Tyndale or the KJV translators.

 

Here’s a question for the board: Should they know?  If not, why not?

 

--Erik

As I was reading this, I got the picture of someone pulling the trigger of those gag, novelty guns and all that happens is a little banner pops out that says "BANG!"

[Five Solas]

As I was reading this, I got the picture of someone pulling the trigger of those gag, novelty guns and all that happens is a little banner pops out that says "BANG!"

I always appreciate your thoughtful contributions, teddyaware

;0)

 

--Erik

[The Nehor]

The Apostles know this.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/05/the-language-of-prayer

Note that Elder Oaks acknowledges that is familiar language and acknowledges that some of the meaning of respect and reverence has been acquired since.

[halconero]

I'll tell you this, it makes for some confusing General Conference talks when translated into other langauges. I remember hearing stories from the Mexican members on my mission about being extremely confused about one of the apostle's talks on the language of prayer in General Conference. Why? Because the equivalents of thee, thou and thine, along with you or your, are still used in Spanish.

Tú, ti, tuyo vs usted or su. The first three are used to address friends, family or other close confidants, the others are used to show respect to strangers, older people, professionals, etc.

Interestingly the Bible uses the former to describe and pray to God, much like the intended message of the KJV. Also, in teaching new members how to pray, Preach My Gospel tells us to use the informal, close friendship, pronouns instead.

So you can imagine the confusion when a talk in English on the language of prayer gets translated into Spanish.

[BlueDreams]

Here’s a question for the board: Should they know?  If not, why not?

 

 

Does it really matter? I realized that when I started reading the BoM in spanish. All of the thee's and thou's are tu's, which is the familiar. As an adult I'm extremely casual with my personal prayers. I walk and talk with God. I pray laying down. I sometimes pray kneeling or sitting too. Sometimes I say thee's sometimes you. Sometimes both in the same sentence. Sometimes in spanish. Mostly in english. I've yelled at God, whined at him, and had very solemn gentle prayers as well. God's my Friend and my Father. And I know I started with thee's and thou's as a kid. I can't say it had a negative effect on my prayers today. It has had positive moments.

 

The kids are learning to respect God and are earnest in their efforts. To me, that's what matters most. It does bother me when someone tells older people that thee/thou is the most respectful/better/only way to pray (even though I usually do that in public meetings, without thinking about it)...cuz it's not accurate. But I remember finding it just as disrespectful when a man - equally religious....I think baptist or ev - Couldn't get over it and kept picking at my earnest prayer given (which felt mocking and in poor taste, if not Pharisaical).   

 

So in short: No, unless the parents want to tell them. Why not: because it's not important. Meaning is fluid. In LDS culture it's a sign of respect and reverence. Both, toward God is generally a good thing. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited January 20, 2014 by BlueDreams

[Freedom]

This is certainly a cultural practice that, as the church expands more into other languages, may go away. It sets the prayer apart as unique and separate from normal language in English. I wonder how this plays out in Cantonese or Russian? 

[mfbukowski]

Languages change and their usages and reasons for certain usages do also.

 

Anyone ever notice that Latin is now Spanish, Italian, French Romanian and who knows what else?

 

And yes, it is right to respect God.  What's the issue here??

 

It's those old stupid LDS doing it all wrong again, I guess.    This stuff gets pretty old you know.

[mfbukowski]

The Apostles know this.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/05/the-language-of-prayer

Note that Elder Oaks acknowledges that is familiar language and acknowledges that some of the meaning of respect and reverence has been acquired since.

Exactly.

Uh, emphasis added.

[thesometimesaint]

The important thing is we pray.

[mfbukowski]

  Her children have no idea the air of religious solemnity they create is antithetical to the actual meaning of their words, to say nothing of the intent of Tyndale or the KJV translators.

 

And what, pray tell, is the "actual meaning of the words" if not the respectful intent of their hearts?

[Xajax]

When I was growing up in Hawaii I spoke pigeon English with my peers.  My mother would not let me speak pigeon in our home. 

 

When I joined the church at twelve and entered my mother’s closet for my first prayer, I began with “Fada”.  Then before I could say any more my mouth stopped and an image of my mother came into my mind.  I knew I couldn't speak to my mother that way, and so I realized that I couldn't speak to God that way, or in other words I had to speak my best language, my highest level of language to Him.

 

I had heard other people pray in pigeon, and wondered about it.  I then realized that that was their best or only language and it was acceptable to God.

I have learned to use thee, thou, thine in my prayers and for me (and not necessarily for everyone) it conveys a deep feeling of respect and love.  Sometimes when I am especially loving to my wife, I use those pronouns.  However you decide to address deity, I believe He will since your respect.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And what, pray tell, is the "actual meaning of the words" if not the respectful intent of their hearts?

Exactly. This thread is an epic fail.

[The Nehor]

The important thing is we pray.

According to Elder Oaks the words we use matter as well. He outright says this. I say this as a former archaic phraseology non-user who has since gone back to using because that talk convinced me.

[The Nehor]

When I was growing up in Hawaii I spoke pigeon English with my peers.  My mother would not let me speak pigeon in our home. 

 

When I joined the church at twelve and entered my mother’s closet for my first prayer, I began with “Fada”.  Then before I could say any more my mouth stopped and an image of my mother came into my mind.  I knew I couldn't speak to my mother that way, and so I realized that I couldn't speak to God that way, or in other words I had to speak my best language, my highest level of language to Him.

 

I had heard other people pray in pigeon, and wondered about it.  I then realized that that was their best or only language and it was acceptable to God.

I have learned to use thee, thou, thine in my prayers and for me (and not necessarily for everyone) it conveys a deep feeling of respect and love.  Sometimes when I am especially loving to my wife, I use those pronouns.  However you decide to address deity, I believe He will since your respect.

Can you teach me to talk to pigeons?

I think you mean "pidgin".

[mfbukowski]

When I was growing up in Hawaii I spoke pigeon English with my peers.  My mother would not let me speak pigeon in our home. 

 

When I joined the church at twelve and entered my mother’s closet for my first prayer, I began with “Fada”.  Then before I could say any more my mouth stopped and an image of my mother came into my mind.  I knew I couldn't speak to my mother that way, and so I realized that I couldn't speak to God that way, or in other words I had to speak my best language, my highest level of language to Him.

 

I had heard other people pray in pigeon, and wondered about it.  I then realized that that was their best or only language and it was acceptable to God.

I have learned to use thee, thou, thine in my prayers and for me (and not necessarily for everyone) it conveys a deep feeling of respect and love.  Sometimes when I am especially loving to my wife, I use those pronouns.  However you decide to address deity, I believe He will since your respect.

WOW!  Wonderful post!

[mfbukowski]

Can you teach me to talk to pigeons?

I think you mean "pidgin".

Uh, I think you should look at the intent of the post- which is exactly what we are talking about.  Rather ironic.

[Xajax]

. I wonder how this plays out in Cantonese or Russian? 

 

I went to Hong Kong on my mission where the local language was mostly Cantonese.  Many of the people use ‘nei’ for ‘you’ in their prayers but in the sacramental prayer the word was Ta a more formal use of the term.

[Xajax]

Can you teach me to talk to pigeons?

I think you mean "pidgin".

 

Actually, I did spell it almost that way, but my spell checker recommended an alternate spelling and I went with it with out checking my checker.  Thankfully I don't have to spell to Heavenly Father or I would be in big trougle.

[Stroopwafel]

In French, the Church teaches that one should use the personal pronoun "tu" when praying. Generaly, the use of this pronoun emphasizes a close relationship with the person one is addressing, which is what the Church intends, and which is typically a Protestant attitude. French Catholics, for instance, usually address the Father in Heaven using "vous", which tends to create a distance between two individuals when used, but also a greater sense of respect.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Stroopwafel

[Storm Rider]

This is a strange question you ask Five; do you really think that something is wrong with the way LDS pray?  Is the way you pray superior or is it just different? Is it acceptable for others to pray differently from you? 

 

We teach people to pray a certain way; primarily we teach people to pray because many feel uncomfortable with praying i.e. they express they do not know how to pray.  If you were to attend LDS meetings, particularly in wards where there are a lot of converts, you would hear a mix of thees and thous as well as yous and yours. Joseph Smith's statement, "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves" is apt. We teach people how to pray, but after that we are not overly concerned about exactly how one prays. The fact that they pray is of primary importance and that they strive to become one with Son as the Son is with the Father is the objective. 

 

As for me, I always use thee and thou in English; it is the easiest form of communication for me when addressing God. When I pray in other languages I use the more personal pronouns.

 

Five Solas, what do you think God would tell you in response to your question? What do you think He thinks is of primary importance.  Is it really a question of white and black, up and down, formal and informal?  You may be swallowing camels and choking on flies. 

[rpn]

I think it might be useful for your sister to learn what you have told us (maybe using the apostles talk).   But if your intent is to stir up trouble, please don't.  

[CV75]

Here’s a question for the board: Should they know?  If not, why not?

Should who know what? As far as I can tell, using the KJV pronouns in this day and age provides a unique opportunity (in English at least) to be both gratefully familiar (as child to Parent) and lovingly reverent (as mortal to God).

[daz2]

"Thee" and "thou" have primarily become a religious boundary marker--like using the King James Version or avoiding using the cross--to distinguish LDS from other English-speaking Christians.  Outside the LDS Church, Christianity as a whole has largely moved to using more updated versions of the Bible and to using "you" in prayer (even Popes before Pope Francis). 

In the talk to which Nehor refers, Elder Oaks said:

"I am sure that our Heavenly Father, who loves all of his children, hears and answers all prayers, however phrased. If he is offended in connection with prayers, it is likely to be by their absence, not their phraseology. . . .But as we gain experience as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we need to become more mature in all of our efforts, including our prayers.

Men and women who wish to show respect will take the time to learn the special language of prayer. Persons spend many hours mastering communication skills in other mediums, such as poetry or prose, vocal or instrumental music, and even the language of access to computers. My brothers and sisters, the manner of addressing our Heavenly Father in prayer is at least as important as these.

 

"

 

Elder Oaks' basis for instructing us to use the archaic forms is that the archaic forms are used in the KJV, the Book of Mormon, in prayers by prophets, and that "[t]he men whom we sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators have consistently taught and urged English-speaking members of our Church to phrase their petitions to the Almighty in the special language of prayer. President Spencer W. Kimball said, “In all our prayers, it is well to use the pronouns thee, thou, thy, and thine instead of you, your, and yours inasmuch as they have come to indicate respect.” (Faith Precedes the Miracle, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1972, p. 201.) Numerous other Church leaders have given the same counsel. (See Stephen L Richards, in Conference Report, Oct. 1951, p. 175; Bruce R. McConkie, Ensign, Jan. 1976, p. 12; and L. Tom Perry, Ensign, Nov. 1983, p. 13.)"

 

I wonder if that means that the only way that the  instruction (which is now in the handbook) will be changed is by revelation, like the priesthood/temple ban based on race/lineage.  Would an official declaration be required?

Edited January 20, 2014 by daz2

[Rob Osborn]

I have a family member who no longer practices the LDS religion even though he is still very much a devout Christian. I hear him pray frequently as we meet often as extended family. One phrase that sticks out in my mind that he uses every time is this-

"we love You with all of our hearts". I have thought long and hard over this and have come to the conclusion over the years that it is best to use the words of "our heart" as that is all that matters. Properly in Archaic english this same sentence would be "we lovest thee with all of our hearts" but we really no longer use words such as "lovest". Even 400 years ago, thee, thine, thy, thou was used to speak to common man in either singular or plural sense. In this context, as it was translated in the KJ bible, there were no words of special priveledge or use to address deity. It became a new tradition over the last 400 years only to do as such. Thus, Joseph Smith, raised using this languag would thus translate according to this same standard. So how did Christ really teach us to pray? The original language was in Hebrew which didn't use pronouns differently when addressing either common man or Deity. "Thee, thine, thy, thou was introduced solely for using it in context of whether the person or persons were singular aor plural. Tradition thus then sprang from that in the King James version which went on to use the words whenever addressing deity.

http://www.thytestimonies.com/questions_answers/prayer_in_old_english.htm