Thee, Thy, Thou - Archaic English - Essential To L D S Prayer

[teddyaware]

I have no problem with English speakers using old English if that is their wish. Whatever floats your boat. But to claim that old English is more reverential. Therefore we must use it is contrived, and Pharisaic.  IMNTBHO

Here we go

It may be tradition to call our Heavenly Father "thee" or "thou" but we should realize according to biblical text that Satan is calked the same-" thee" and "thou". Its interesting that we dont remember that part of scripture. I admit mysekf, being raised in traditional mormon upbringing that I use this thee thou thine in prayer. But, I also didnt know the meaning of these words until justvrecently. Now that I am finding out the true meaning of thesr words in how they are used I am more inclined to slowly start replacing them with words that actually convey my real feelings. I find the phrase "we love you" more powerful than " we lovest thee". Perhaps I was never into Shakespear or what not but I do think we tend to make speech too flowerly and proper.

Found the following on Wikipedia...

"Once a language becomes associated with religious worship, its believers may ascribe virtues to the language of worship that they would not give to their native tongues.[citation needed] In the case of sacred texts, there is a fear of losing authenticity and accuracy by a translation or re-translation, and difficulties in achieving acceptance for a new version of a text. A sacred language is typically vested with a solemnity and dignity that the vernacular lacks. Consequently, the training of clergy in the use of a sacred language becomes an important cultural investment, and their use of the tongue is perceived to give them access to a body of knowledge that untrained lay people cannot (or should not) access. In medieval Europe, the (real or putative) ability to read (see also benefit of clergy) scripture—which was in Latin—was considered a prerogative of the priesthood, and a benchmark of literacy; until near the end of the period almost all who could read and write could do so in Latin.[citation needed]

Because sacred languages are ascribed with virtues that the vernacular is not perceived to have, the sacred languages typically preserve characteristics that would have been lost in the course of language development. In some cases, the sacred language is a dead language. In other cases, it may simply reflect archaic forms of a living language. For instance, 17th-century elements of the English language remain current in Protestant Christian worship through the use of the King James Bible or older versions of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer. In more extreme"

[thesometimesaint]

Here we go

Found the following on Wikipedia...

"Once a language becomes associated with religious worship, its believers may ascribe virtues to the language of worship that they would not give to their native tongues.[citation needed] In the case of sacred texts, there is a fear of losing authenticity and accuracy by a translation or re-translation, and difficulties in achieving acceptance for a new version of a text. A sacred language is typically vested with a solemnity and dignity that the vernacular lacks. Consequently, the training of clergy in the use of a sacred language becomes an important cultural investment, and their use of the tongue is perceived to give them access to a body of knowledge that untrained lay people cannot (or should not) access. In medieval Europe, the (real or putative) ability to read (see also benefit of clergy) scripture—which was in Latin—was considered a prerogative of the priesthood, and a benchmark of literacy; until near the end of the period almost all who could read and write could do so in Latin.[citation needed]

Because sacred languages are ascribed with virtues that the vernacular is not perceived to have, the sacred languages typically preserve characteristics that would have been lost in the course of language development. In some cases, the sacred language is a dead language. In other cases, it may simply reflect archaic forms of a living language. For instance, 17th-century elements of the English language remain current in Protestant Christian worship through the use of the King James Bible or older versions of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer. In more extreme"

 

I don't see anything particularly reverential in old English. Besides English is a combination of two German Languages mixed in with a lot of French.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin

[teddyaware]

I don't see anything particularly reverential in old English. Besides English is a combination of two German Languages mixed in with a lot of French.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin

I suppose the fact that the LDS Sacrament prayer's wording and language were given by revelation will have no impact on your position...

7 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify thisbread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the nameof thy Son, and always remember him and keep his ccommandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

8 The manner of administering the wine—he shall take the cup also, and say:

79 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen. (D&C 20)

Edited January 21, 2014 by teddyaware

[The Nehor]

I have no problem with English speakers using old English if that is their wish. Whatever floats your boat. But to claim that old English is more reverential. Therefore we must use it is contrived, and Pharisaic.  IMNTBHO

 

Counterpoint: Its use has Apostolic sanction and it is dangerous to accuse apostles of being pharisees. The essence of being a Pharisee is to take the Word and Law of God and add to it without revelation to give yourself an air of holiness. People on crank Word of Wisdom diets that won't shut up about them are Pharisees. Following the counsel of those with the keys to dispense revelation is not.

 

I don't see anything particularly reverential in old English. Besides English is a combination of two German Languages mixed in with a lot of French.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin

 

There is nothing reverential that we do not put there. The reality is that most English speakers associate it with reverence and some with pretentiousness but that is because they recognize that others give it reverence.

 

It may be tradition to call our Heavenly Father "thee" or "thou" but we should realize according to biblical text that Satan is calked the same-" thee" and "thou". Its interesting that we dont remember that part of scripture. I admit mysekf, being raised in traditional mormon upbringing that I use this thee thou thine in prayer. But, I also didnt know the meaning of these words until justvrecently. Now that I am finding out the true meaning of thesr words in how they are used I am more inclined to slowly start replacing them with words that actually convey my real feelings. I find the phrase "we love you" more powerful than " we lovest thee". Perhaps I was never into Shakespear or what not but I do think we tend to make speech too flowerly and proper.

 

The universal use of "thee" and "thou" in the King James Bible was a conscious choice. They wanted the intimate words to convey that one could come to know God and then consistently applied it throughout the rest of the text.

 

While there is some virtue in closeness there is also virtue in respect. Prayers should run the gamut from loving parent-child to king-subject to judge-penitent relationships and many many more. Emphasizing informality is probably not the way to keep this perspective in mind. Transitioning to a different mode of communication has positive benefits in helping someone to focus. Of course since the use of this language when able is a command you also get blessings for obedience.

[thesometimesaint]

I suppose the fact that the LDS Sacrament prayer's wording and language were given by revelation will have no impact on your position...

7 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify thisbread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the nameof thy Son, and always remember him and keep his ccommandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

8 The manner of administering the wine—he shall take the cup also, and say:

79 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen. (D&C 20)

 

No; Not really. We have just three set prayers in the Church, and it wouldn't bother me a bit if we were drop the thees,  and thous. Fortunately I don't have the responsibility to make it so.

[Senator]

 Of course since the use of this language when able is a command you also get blessings for obedience.

 

It's now a commandment? Now we are getting pharisaical and I don't care who it is issued from.

[teddyaware]

No; Not really. We have just three set prayers in the Church, and it wouldn't bother me a bit if we were drop the thees,  and thous. Fortunately I don't have the responsibility to make it so.

And I suppose that even though the living prophets counsel us that we should always be sure to pray in the language of scripture, that will have no impact on you either?

Edited January 21, 2014 by teddyaware

[thesometimesaint]

There is nothing reverential that we do not put there. The reality is that most English speakers associate it with reverence and some with pretentiousness but that is because they recognize that others give it reverence.

 

The universal use of "thee" and "thou" in the King James Bible was a conscious choice. They wanted the intimate words to convey that one could come to know God and then consistently applied it throughout the rest of the text.

 

While there is some virtue in closeness there is also virtue in respect. Prayers should run the gamut from loving parent-child to king-subject to judge-penitent relationships and many many more. Emphasizing informality is probably not the way to keep this perspective in mind. Transitioning to a different mode of communication has positive benefits in helping someone to focus. Of course since the use of this language when able is a command you also get blessings for obedience.

 

I know it is associated with reverence, I just don't get it. To me it feels contrived, and to insist, or make someone feel less of a member, that we use it when addressing Deity pharasaic.

 

We have only three set prayers in the Church and see no need to expand the use of old English to anytime we address Deity in public, let alone in our own personal prayers. Again if someone wants to use it I have no objection. Whatever floats their boat. IE; On this last Sunday I was blessed with ordaining my Grandnephew to the Melchizedek Priesthood. Not one thee or thou was used.  Was that ordination something less than legitimate because of that?

[thesometimesaint]

And I suppose that even though the living prophets counsel us that we should always be sure to pray in the language of scripture, that will have no impact on you either?

 

When I say the Sacrament and Baptism prayers I use the prescribed form. Otherwise the choice of wording is up to me.

[cdowis]

As a funny side note, I have an evangelical english professor friend who lives in a primarily LDS area.  One day he sat me down and asked why Mormons write so weird when they try to write formally.  As he explained it to me, it started to make sense.  He said it was kind of a King James English without the thees and thous, but still KJV.  Mormons know enough to leave out the thees and thous (for the most part) but revert to almost a king james english when they try to write formally.  He wasn't mocking, just couldn't understand where it came from.  He actually agreed to come to fast and testimony meeting to try to get a grip on the "LDS dialect."  

 

As a funny side note, I have an evangelical english professor friend who lives in a primarily LDS area.  One day he sat me down and asked why Mormons write so weird when they try to write formally.  As he explained it to me, it started to make sense.  He said it was kind of a King James English without the thees and thous, but still KJV.  Mormons know enough to leave out the thees and thous (for the most part) but revert to almost a king james english when they try to write formally.  He wasn't mocking, just couldn't understand where it came from.  He actually agreed to come to fast and testimony meeting to try to get a grip on the "LDS dialect."  

 

This would make an interesting research study.

 

I would guess it has to do with the language used in General Conference talks, and that language is influenced by the speeches of the general authorities going back to the 1800's.  I remember reading some letters from Civil War soldiers to their wives, and their english was very formal to my ears.

Edited January 21, 2014 by cdowis

[teddyaware]

When I say the Sacrament and Baptism prayers I use the prescribed form. Otherwise the choice of wording is up to me.

That's true. But our prophets counsel otherwise. This reminds me of two of the best known of the Book of Mormon's verses:

6 Now ye may suppose that this is foolishness in me; but behold I say unto you, that by small and simple things are great things brought to pass; and small means in many instances doth confound the wise.

7 And the Lord God doth work by means to bring about his great and eternal purposes; and by very small means the Lord doth confound the wise and bringeth about the salvation of many souls. (Alma 37)

[thesometimesaint]

That's true. But our prophets counsel otherwise. This reminds me of two of the best known of the Book of Mormon's verses:

6 Now ye may suppose that this is foolishness in me; but behold I say unto you, that by small and simple things are great things brought to pass; and small means in many instances doth confound the wise.

7 And the Lord God doth work by means to bring about his great and eternal purposes; and by very small means the Lord doth confound the wise and bringeth about the salvation of many souls. (Alma 37)

 

 I'm far from wise, and am often foolish. However I'm just not that tied to old English. With over 60% of the English language coming from the French. Insisting in calling French Fries "Freedom Fries" is really very foolish.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Freedom+Fries%22&client=firefox-a&hs=El2&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=rcs&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=P8LeUsGkAs7soAT4jICgBw&ved=0CDYQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=568

[volgadon]

In French, the Church teaches that one should use the personal pronoun "tu" when praying. Generaly, the use of this pronoun emphasizes a close relationship with the person one is addressing, which is what the Church intends, and which is typically a Protestant attitude. French Catholics, for instance, usually address the Father in Heaven using "vous", which tends to create a distance between two individuals when used, but also a greater sense of respect.

 

Orthodox, OTOH, tend to use the familiar personal pronoun, so this isn't particularly a protestant attitude.

[The Nehor]

It's now a commandment? Now we are getting pharisaical and I don't care who it is issued from.

 

It is a commandment to use if able, yes. We don't force it on children or recent converts but the Apostles and Prophets say "Do it!".

 

I am not sure you know what a Pharisee is......

[Rob Osborn]

And then we have the temple language which tells us the true order of prayer but yet no one I know prays like that outside of that certain prayer in the temple endowment...

[volgadon]

And then we have the temple language which tells us the true order of prayer but yet no one I know prays like that outside of that certain prayer in the temple endowment...

 

Because to do so would be to misunderstand the function of those words.

[The Nehor]

. I'm an old long time member of the Church, and I still don't get the fascination with old English.

 

To be honest I don't either. I just deal with it.

[thesometimesaint]

It is a commandment to use if able, yes. We don't force it on children or recent converts but the Apostles and Prophets say "Do it!".

 

I am not sure you know what a Pharisee is......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees

[volgadon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees

 

A better resource. http://books.google.com/books?id=G80UAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pharisees+neusner&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MsfeUun2PKmCygGY94Ag&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=pharisees%20neusner&f=false

[thesometimesaint]

To be honest I don't either. I just deal with it.

 

Great minds think alike, :lol;

[thesometimesaint]

A better resource. http://books.google.com/books?id=G80UAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=pharisees+neusner&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MsfeUun2PKmCygGY94Ag&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=pharisees%20neusner&f=false

 

Bookmarked it and will read later. Thanx.

[Scott Lloyd]

I know it is associated with reverence, I just don't get it. To me it feels contrived, and to insist, or make someone feel less of a member, that we use it when addressing Deity pharasaic.

 

We have only three set prayers in the Church and see no need to expand the use of old English to anytime we address Deity in public, let alone in our own personal prayers. Again if someone wants to use it I have no objection. Whatever floats their boat. IE; On this last Sunday I was blessed with ordaining my Grandnephew to the Melchizedek Priesthood. Not one thee or thou was used.  Was that ordination something less than legitimate because of that?

When you ordain someone to the priesthood, you are addressing the one being ordained, not Heavenly Father.

 

That's an important distinction, because no one has ever mandated that we use scriptural pronouns in addressing individuals who are being ordained or blessed.

 

On the other hand, there has been very clear and repeated direction to use the language of scripture when talking to God. You may rail against this all you like, but be advised that in doing so, you are contradicting the apostles and prophets (not Pharisees).

Edited January 21, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[thesometimesaint]

When you ordain someone to the priesthood, you are addressing the one being ordained, not Heavenly Father.

 

That's an important distinction, because no one has ever mandated that we use scriptural pronouns in addressing individuals who are being ordained or blessed.

 

On the other hand, there has been very clear and repeated direction to use the language of scripture when talking to God. You may rail against this all you like, but be advised that in doing so, you are contradicting the apostles and prophets.

 

I never said I rail against it, and I don't. If you want to use thee, thine, thou be my guest. I certainly won't object. I don't dress up in Elizabethan style clothes when addressing Deity.  That would be pretentious, and rather silly of me to do. Likewise I see no need to talk like them. I just don't get it.

[Rob Osborn]

Ive got a theory baking here. Suppose that when Jesus was teaching people originally how to pray in Jerusalem and in the Americas that he understood their everyday language and thus taught them to also speak to God in this method because God is not jealous of one over another and certainly we shouldn't change who we are and make it into a flowery eloquent speech. Christ perhaps was showing us that we can speak to our Heavenly Father with everyday speech because He too is personable and loveable and easy to get along with- easy to entreat.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Rob Osborn

[Scott Lloyd]

I never said I rail against it, and I don't.

Maybe "rail against" is the wrong terminology. You just use sarcasm to ridicule and disparage explicit instruction from the Brethren, as below:

 

If you want to use thee, thine, thou be my guest. I certainly won't object. I don't dress up in Elizabethan style clothes when addressing Deity.  That would be pretentious, and rather silly of me to do. Likewise I see no need to talk like them. I just don't get it.

 

By the way, here's the full version of the Dallin H. Oaks talk that was among those excerpted in the link I gave in my post above, which, apparently, you never bothered to click on or consider.

 

Here's a particularly pithy excerpt:

 

The words we use in speaking to someone can identify the nature of our relationship to that person. They can also remind speaker and listener of the responsibilities they owe one another in that relationship. The form of address can also serve as a mark of respect or affection.

So it is with the language of prayer. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches its members to use special language in addressing prayers to our Father in Heaven.

When we go to worship in a temple or a church, we put aside our working clothes and dress ourselves in something better. This change of clothing is a mark of respect. Similarly, when we address our Heavenly Father, we should put aside our working words and clothe our prayers in special language of reverence and respect. In offering prayers in the English language, members of our Church do not address our Heavenly Father with the same words we use in speaking to a fellow worker, to an employee or employer, or to a merchant in the marketplace. We use special words that have been sanctified by use in inspired communications, words that have been recommended to us and modeled for us by those we sustain as prophets and inspired teachers.