Thee, Thy, Thou - Archaic English - Essential To L D S Prayer

[Rob Osborn]

One further note. If we are tu use these words when addressing God then it should be noted that we also refer to all of His creations in the same context. No longer should we say to our brother- "You are great" but instead "Thou art great" because this is how the Bible would have used the word. But, then it creates the conflict of us thinking we are addressing God and not our brother.

[DJBrown]

When I was growing up LDS, we were taught some curious things.  Among them, that we must use archaic pronouns when addressing “Heavenly Father” in prayer.  The reason was these pronouns supposedly expressed the reverence and formality due God.

 

My sister & her husband (devout LDS) pray in this manner and have likewise instructed their kids—who (most of the time) dutifully bow their heads, fold their arms and via their speech turn the clock back to William Tyndale & early 16th century England.

 

It’s led to some interesting conversation because her kids have picked up the fact our family also prays but without following LDS protocol, and that’s lead to questions.  My sister provides the same explanation I heard growing up—use of thee, thou, etc. is the formal, reverent way to address God and therefore my family doesn’t do it right (albeit in a gentle way which doesn’t produce tension among young cousins—which I appreciate).

 

AS it happens, the truth is exactly 100% the opposite.  Those pronouns were never formal—they were always informal for casual speech as you would have with a friend (“you” is formal).  The ancient Greek language of the New Testament had no distinction of formal vs. informal pronouns.  And as David Daniell explains in his remarkable history of the English language Bible, The Bible in English—Tyndale was faced with a choice, and he deliberately chose the informal pronouns to make the theological point that the reader could have a close personal relationship with God.  And the King James Version translators persisted those pronouns—even though by 1611 they had already fallen into disuse in the vernacular. 

 

White is black, up is down, and informal is formal.  Her children have no idea the air of religious solemnity they create is antithetical to the actual meaning of their words, to say nothing of the intent of Tyndale or the KJV translators.

 

Here’s a question for the board: Should they know?  If not, why not?

 

--Erik

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9797617/Shakespeare-and-Wordsworth-boost-the-brain-new-research-reveals.html

 

Researchers at Liverpool University have published interesting findings relating to the effect of classic English on the human brain.  Philip Davis, professor at the university, along with his research group, has monitored the electrical activity in the brains of individuals as they read literature from Bard authors including Shakespeare, Wadsworth, and others.  Utilizing high-tech MRI scanners, they can see which areas of the brain are activated with reading and the degree to which the brain is stimulated by this activity.  The research group has found interesting differences in brain activity when people read classical literature compared to more modern texts.  It turns out that when people read the works of Shakespeare and other Elizabethan texts, the brain activity increases significantly more than when other forms of literature are read.  Professor Davis states that this type of literature is “like a rocket booster to the brain.”  He goes on to say that reading classic English texts seems to engage the brain in deeper self-reflection capacities and increases “autobiographical memory,” something Davis says helps the reader reflect upon and reappraise their own experiences in light of what they have read.  Such English prose has a greater effect on an individual than “self-help” books according to Davis. The team of researchers translated the older English texts into more modern versions and found that the brain activity in readers declined significantly compared to the brain activity when they read the older versions of the texts.

 

Personally, I think that there is a reason the language of the Book of Mormon and the KJV of the Bible is what it is.  And there is a reason we pray the way we do.  

[Rob Osborn]

_{Here is something interesting with Christ engaging Satan and calling him "thee"}

 

 _{10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Matthew 4:10)}

 

Edited January 20, 2014 by Rob Osborn

[cinepro]

Erik, it appears you and your sister have stumbled across the perfect opportunity to perform an experiment to determine if, in fact, such language makes a difference to God.  You should use every opportunity to compare the outcomes of the prayers between the prayers of your two families.  Which family has more incidences of food poisoning from weakly blessed food?  Which family is more nourished and strengthened by their food (you should adopt identical meal plans to test this one)?  Which family travels more safely, and which family has friends and missionaries who are generally more blessed?

 

You should also use every opportunity to have guests compare; I would recommend both of you inviting the same set of missionaries over for dinner several times a month.  After they've eaten food blessed by both families, prepare a questionnaire for them to fill out evaluating the experience and any observations they had about the quality of blessed-food, and their safety in traveling immediately after the visit (assuming their subsequent travel was also included in the prayer- make sure it is!) 

 

Let us know how it turns out. 

[Calm]

]

Actually, I did spell it almost that way, but my spell checker recommended an alternate spelling and I went with it with out checking my checker.  Thankfully I don't have to spell to Heavenly Father or I would be in big trougle.

You are a good sport and welcome to the board.

[ERayR]

When I was growing up LDS, we were taught some curious things.  Among them, that we must use archaic pronouns when addressing “Heavenly Father” in prayer.  The reason was these pronouns supposedly expressed the reverence and formality due God.

 

My sister & her husband (devout LDS) pray in this manner and have likewise instructed their kids—who (most of the time) dutifully bow their heads, fold their arms and via their speech turn the clock back to William Tyndale & early 16th century England.

 

It’s led to some interesting conversation because her kids have picked up the fact our family also prays but without following LDS protocol, and that’s lead to questions.  My sister provides the same explanation I heard growing up—use of thee, thou, etc. is the formal, reverent way to address God and therefore my family doesn’t do it right (albeit in a gentle way which doesn’t produce tension among young cousins—which I appreciate).

 

AS it happens, the truth is exactly 100% the opposite.  Those pronouns were never formal—they were always informal for casual speech as you would have with a friend (“you” is formal).  The ancient Greek language of the New Testament had no distinction of formal vs. informal pronouns.  And as David Daniell explains in his remarkable history of the English language Bible, The Bible in English—Tyndale was faced with a choice, and he deliberately chose the informal pronouns to make the theological point that the reader could have a close personal relationship with God.  And the King James Version translators persisted those pronouns—even though by 1611 they had already fallen into disuse in the vernacular. 

 

White is black, up is down, and informal is formal.  Her children have no idea the air of religious solemnity they create is antithetical to the actual meaning of their words, to say nothing of the intent of Tyndale or the KJV translators.

 

Here’s a question for the board: Should they know?  If not, why not?

 

--Erik

 

Slow Day?  Couldn't think of anything else to find fault with?

[Rob Osborn]

From what I can tell from some further study it seems apparent that we have kind of a bible language tradition that has turned into a prayer tradition and from there we use these words in our own unique way which is indeed different than how it was originally used. Back in translation times hundreds of years ago they used these words in every day language the same way we use words like you, your today. Somewhere along the way this language found itself still in use but pretty much just in bibles until eventually only the bible for the most part kept these words in use. Around this same time we began to associate these words only in prayer because this was common in reciting memorized prayers in worship. It then became kind of a standard tradition to associate thee, thine, thou in reference to God and pretty much just in prayer. Typically when we speak of God in open discussion or in a class setting we do not refer to him as thee, thine, thou but as "God", "Heavenly Father", etc. But when we pray we invoke this tradition left over from translation days. Whats interesting is that most often in scripture Satan is addressed with the same thee, thine, thou asalso is common man. Even as part of traditional wording, we still use this phrase to cast Satan out of our midst- " Satan, get thee hence". My dad would always rattle off that phrase when he felt Satan was present.

Thus, it appears that we have made it a tradition but miss the true meaning of how these words were indeed used as referring to anyone including God and Satan alike. We have had a tendency in our church to make this a point, as if we believe it gives prayer more reverence, power, etc, when in fact, its what is in our heart that matters. This reminds me of other situations of word use like "born again". Typically we do not use this wording in describing ourselves even though the phrase is found in all of our LDS scripture.

I think we should be aware of not getting too flowery and proud our speech, making up special rules for prayer or we too will fall into that trap of reciting prayer with no meaning other than to hear ourselves speak in some puffed up eloquence. The Holy Ghost teaches man how to pray and perhaps we are dead wrong teaching our children how to pray using words they do not understand nor can comprehend.

[Rob Osborn]

Wanted to bring up one more thing that dawned on me as I sat playing a game with my 6 year old daughter this evening. After we finished a game she sat there smiling then said "dad I love you". I hold these words in the highest places of my heart right next to God himself. This immediately reminded me of my family member who when he prays also says these words "we love you" in addressing our Heavenly Father. If you think about it, wereserve this phrase "I love you" for the highest gratitude towards those whom we truly love and have deep affection towards. It really got me to thinking about how we address our Heavenly Father but use different words to try to convey the same feelings from our heart. It dawned on me that perhaps we should use the same words to address our HF s we do for our own family.

[thesometimesaint]

According to Elder Oaks the words we use matter as well. He outright says this. I say this as a former archaic phraseology non-user who has since gone back to using because that talk convinced me.

 

I don't believe that. A little child who stutters, or is inarticulate in prayer is heard by God just as well as the old college president with perfect diction. 

[Robert F. Smith]

Exactly. This thread is an epic fail.

Not at all, Mola.  Some of us needed to read this stuff -- especially Elder Oaks' views.  I'm still learning.

[Robert F. Smith]

I don't believe that. A little child who stutters, or is inarticulate in prayer is heard by God just as well as the old college president with perfect diction. 

You misunderstood The Nehor, and apparently didn't bother to read Elder Oaks' comments.

[Senator]

 

It's those old stupid LDS doing it all wrong again, I guess.    This stuff gets pretty old you know.

 

Actually, according to the report in the OP, it was the LDS that was making a point to inform others that they were doing it wrong. Yes that also happens, and I can see how it would get old.

 

So Five Solas, I accept your questions as good and legitimate, and I think it would be good for you to talk about it with your sister in the same form of gentleness that she used to inform you.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Senator

[blooit]

I spent a long time studying linguistics, so I respect the ever changing meaning behind words and idioms.  At the same time, I would like to see thees and thous done away with.  We really don't know how to use them when combined with verbs anyway, and it ends up being very awkward.  I remember helping teach a new investigator who wouldn't pray for several lessons because he was concerned about getting the thees and thous right.  Further, if they are supposed to communicate formality today, why are we not encouraging members of other languages to use the formal?  When I pray in spanish we always use the informal.  Shouldn't the norm be consistent across cultures?  I also think it serves as a boundary with other faiths.  My evangelicals laugh that I "pray evangelical" - but without the word "just" quite so much.

 

Anyway, I guess my point is that I think it makes prayer not only "formal" but awkward and distant.  Several priesthood/RS manuals have lauded the fact that when the prophets pray they pray "as if speaking to a friend."  I prefer this mode of prayer to something formal or ritualistic when it comes to personal and family prayer.

 

That being said, my daughter came home excited this week because a recently returned sister missionary had shared with the YW that she decided her prayers were more effective if they were done with raised hands and looking to heaven, so that is how she prayed through her mission.  We now have a bunch of young women praying that way.  Maybe there is something to our traditions.  

Edited January 21, 2014 by blooit

[The Nehor]

I don't believe that. A little child who stutters, or is inarticulate in prayer is heard by God just as well as the old college president with perfect diction. 

 

Well, you are wrong. God ignores those who do not use all the correct language perfectly. One "you" instead of a "thee" and God ignores the whole prayer and will probably afflict you with boils for your temerity. Either that or you didn't read Elder Oaks comments and what I said about them comprehensively.

 

Elder Oaks made it clear that God hears all prayers but he expects us to develop into using the prescribed language. Children and recent converts and those who are afflicted and cannot pull it off get a pass. The developed adult who fails to do so because of laziness or because they choose to ignore the counsel of an apostle......they probably miss out of blessings and possibly get boils.

[blooit]

Well, you are wrong. God ignores those who do not use all the correct language perfectly. One "you" instead of a "thee" and God ignores the whole prayer and will probably afflict you with boils for your temerity. Either that or you didn't read Elder Oaks comments and what I said about them comprehensively.

 

Elder Oaks made it clear that God hears all prayers but he expects us to develop into using the prescribed language. Children and recent converts and those who are afflicted and cannot pull it off get a pass. The developed adult who fails to do so because of laziness or because they choose to ignore the counsel of an apostle......they probably miss out of blessings and possibly get boils.

 

I can understand this, but then why would he expect other cultures to develop a strong, informal (intimate) language in prayer, and english speakers to use a formal?

[Rob Osborn]

Well, you are wrong. God ignores those who do not use all the correct language perfectly. One "you" instead of a "thee" and God ignores the whole prayer and will probably afflict you with boils for your temerity. Either that or you didn't read Elder Oaks comments and what I said about them comprehensively.

 

Elder Oaks made it clear that God hears all prayers but he expects us to develop into using the prescribed language. Children and recent converts and those who are afflicted and cannot pull it off get a pass. The developed adult who fails to do so because of laziness or because they choose to ignore the counsel of an apostle......they probably miss out of blessings and possibly get boils.

I remember once hearing a 5th Sunday speech given by the bishop on this "thee, thine, thou" in our prayers and thinking how out of place or how odd this seemed considering all that what wrong with our ward. Anyways, it got me to thinking that we do indeed use the word "you" in a lot of our prayers and don't even think twice about it mixing thees and thous with you you. For instance, a typical blessing on our food might go something like- "Dear Heavenly Father, we thank thee for this day and all our many blessings. Thank you for this food and please bless it to nourish and strengthen our bodies. This we ask in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen."

I think we make too big of a deal about it and lose the true meaning of prayer just because we are trying to speak with 15th century language.

[Tacenda]

I remember once hearing a 5th Sunday speech given by the bishop on this "thee, thine, thou" in our prayers and thinking how out of place or how odd this seemed considering all that what wrong with our ward. Anyways, it got me to thinking that we do indeed use the word "you" in a lot of our prayers and don't even think twice about it mixing thees and thous with you you. For instance, a typical blessing on our food might go something like- "Dear Heavenly Father, we thank thee for this day and all our many blessings. Thank you for this food and please bless it to nourish and strengthen our bodies. This we ask in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen."

I think we make too big of a deal about it and lose the true meaning of prayer just because we are trying to speak with 15th century language.

Too much pressure to talk with our God in a particular way, when all he wants is you, not your words.     

[thesometimesaint]

Well, you are wrong. God ignores those who do not use all the correct language perfectly. One "you" instead of a "thee" and God ignores the whole prayer and will probably afflict you with boils for your temerity. Either that or you didn't read Elder Oaks comments and what I said about them comprehensively.

 

Elder Oaks made it clear that God hears all prayers but he expects us to develop into using the prescribed language. Children and recent converts and those who are afflicted and cannot pull it off get a pass. The developed adult who fails to do so because of laziness or because they choose to ignore the counsel of an apostle......they probably miss out of blessings and possibly get boils.

 

. I'm an old long time member of the Church, and I still don't get the fascination with old English.

[blooit]

As a funny side note, I have an evangelical english professor friend who lives in a primarily LDS area.  One day he sat me down and asked why Mormons write so weird when they try to write formally.  As he explained it to me, it started to make sense.  He said it was kind of a King James English without the thees and thous, but still KJV.  Mormons know enough to leave out the thees and thous (for the most part) but revert to almost a king james english when they try to write formally.  He wasn't mocking, just couldn't understand where it came from.  He actually agreed to come to fast and testimony meeting to try to get a grip on the "LDS dialect."  

[gordontrue]

I think the prayer pronouns can be grouped in with things that are LDS tradition, but not vitally important. Of course God hears all prayers, regardless of language.

 

Having said that, it IS a way to show reverence and respect, regardless of the history of those words. It is no longer normal to speak that way. Just by virtue of the fact that you are addressing God in a way that you address no one else, you are showing respect. The history of the words is not as important as the intent of the heart in using the words.

[The Nehor]

I can understand this, but then why would he expect other cultures to develop a strong, informal (intimate) language in prayer, and english speakers to use a formal?

 

The usage may be archaic but it is not formal. Love poetry of the time used "thee" instead of "you": "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?" It is an intimate form.

[teddyaware]

. I'm an old long time member of the Church, and I still don't get the fascination with old English.

I get it. The Prophet Joseph Smith modeled this kind of prayer for us and we are simply following his lead. I believe the reason why the Prophet Joseph prayed in this way is because it is the sacred form of language used in the Standard Works. And because it is the sacred language of scripture, I feel the weight of its solemnity and power each time I pray. I call my acquaintances 'you,' I call my Heavenly Father thou, just as it is the scriptures, and I'm perfectly happy and honored to do so.

 

The following is an example of the Prophet's usage of the sacred language in prayer:

1Thanks be to thy name, O Lord God of Israel, who keepest covenant and showest mercy unto thy servants who walk uprightly before thee, with all their hearts—

2 Thou who hast commanded thy servants to build a house to thy name in this place [Kirtland].

3 And now thou beholdest, O Lord, that thy servants have done according to thy commandment.

4 And now we ask thee, Holy Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of thy bosom, in whose name alone salvation can be administered to the children of men, we ask thee, O Lord, to accept of this house,the workmanship of the hands of us, thy servants, which thou didst command us to build.

5 For thou knowest that we have done this work through great tribulation; and out of our poverty we have given of our substance to build a house to thy name, that the Son of Man might have a place to manifest himself to his people. (D &C 109)

Edited January 21, 2014 by teddyaware

[The Nehor]

As a funny side note, I have an evangelical english professor friend who lives in a primarily LDS area.  One day he sat me down and asked why Mormons write so weird when they try to write formally.  As he explained it to me, it started to make sense.  He said it was kind of a King James English without the thees and thous, but still KJV.  Mormons know enough to leave out the thees and thous (for the most part) but revert to almost a king james english when they try to write formally.  He wasn't mocking, just couldn't understand where it came from.  He actually agreed to come to fast and testimony meeting to try to get a grip on the "LDS dialect."  

 

Pro:

 

Means the LDS are reading their scriptures.

 

Con:

 

They aren't reading anything else.

[thesometimesaint]

I get it. The Prophet Joseph Smith modeled this kind of prayer for us and we are simply following his lead. I believe the reason why the Prophet Joseph prayed in this way is because it is the sacred form of language used in the Standard Works. And because it is the sacred language of scripture, I feel the weight of its solemnity and power each time I pray. I call my acquaintances 'you,' I call my Heavenly Father thou, just as it is the scriptures, and I'm perfectly happy and honored to do so.

 

The following is an example of the Prophet's usage of the sacred language in prayer:

1Thanks be to thy name, O Lord God of Israel, who keepest covenant and showest mercy unto thy servants who walk uprightly before thee, with all their hearts—

2 Thou who hast commanded thy servants to build a house to thy name in this place [Kirtland].

3 And now thou beholdest, O Lord, that thy servants have done according to thy commandment.

4 And now we ask thee, Holy Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of thy bosom, in whose name alone salvation can be administered to the children of men, we ask thee, O Lord, to accept of this house,the workmanship of the hands of us, thy servants, which thou didst command us to build.

5 For thou knowest that we have done this work through great tribulation; and out of our poverty we have given of our substance to build a house to thy name, that the Son of Man might have a place to manifest himself to his people. (D &C 109)

 

I have no problem with English speakers using old English if that is their wish. Whatever floats your boat. But to claim that old English is more reverential. Therefore we must use it is contrived, and Pharisaic.  IMNTBHO

[Rob Osborn]

It may be tradition to call our Heavenly Father "thee" or "thou" but we should realize according to biblical text that Satan is calked the same-" thee" and "thou". Its interesting that we dont remember that part of scripture. I admit mysekf, being raised in traditional mormon upbringing that I use this thee thou thine in prayer. But, I also didnt know the meaning of these words until justvrecently. Now that I am finding out the true meaning of thesr words in how they are used I am more inclined to slowly start replacing them with words that actually convey my real feelings. I find the phrase "we love you" more powerful than " we lovest thee". Perhaps I was never into Shakespear or what not but I do think we tend to make speech too flowerly and proper.