Amen, Sherri Dew!

[Bernard Gui]

Agreed, I also believe that actual depression occurs out of our control, but we are completely in control for our choices that might lead to this very real, very unfortunate condition.  It is our responsibility to eat right, exercise sufficiently, and sleep properly; if the condition still exists it is our choice to seek after additional medical assistance.  For those of us who suffer from depression we are responsible and we have learned by sad experience that we need to pay particular attention to our bodies and treat them with more care than the average bear. 

I made no choices that lead to depression. It popped up out of nowhere. My grandparents, mother and her siblings, sisters, and many of my nephews and nieces all have had depression, and now I have passed it on to most of my children. Mine was exacerbated by, in quick succession, a broken collar bone, an extreme case of shingles, the death of both parents, and severe stress at work. Food, exercise, and sleep were not helpful. Medicine was. I asked my LDS doctor what did people do before medicine. He responded, in cases like yours they became alcoholics and were institutionalized or committed suicide. I have made sure my kids know how to recognize the illness and to get help immediately. I am so thankful for Elder Holland's conference address. I wish I had heard it 40 years ago. My life would have been totally different...and that's not saying I haven't had a good life. It would have been different without depression. On the other hand, coping with depression has taught me humility, patience, and compassion for others with such illnesses.   https://beta.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/like-a-broken-vessel?lang=eng

Edited November 10, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Teancum]

A superb exposition by Sister Dew.

 

I mentioned here on the board the other day, but this might be an appropriate place to bring it up again, that I work for a corporate entity that is owned by the Church, and my two immediate supervisors are women. They've both made it clear they don't feel in any way held back by the Church.

That is wonderful! Can they serve as a bishop? Nope. Can they run the RS organization in their ward without male supervision? Nope. So whether they feel it or not they are held back.

[Teancum]

I think the point is that women in the Church will not be prohibited from expressing and fulfilling their talents just because they are members of the Church. If it takes a rather prominent example to illustrate that, so be it.

As noted this is not true. A women who is capable of leading a congregation cannot express that talent in the LDS church.

[BCSpace]

This is exactly how I feel. 

 

http://youtu.be/-QYlDLChzig

 

Ought to feel like a dull Epilator to the hairy upper lip of the OW movement.

 

Anyone know what article resulted from the interview?

 

You are out of the thread.

[Jazzdreamer]

Ought to feel like a dull Epilator to the hairy upper lip of the OW movement.

Anyone know what article resulted from the interview?

I posted it

[Jazzdreamer]

Ought to feel like a dull Epilator to the hairy upper lip of the OW movement.

Anyone know what article resulted from the interview?

http://youngmormonfeminists.org/2013/10/11/a-response-to-sheri-dews-what-do-lds-women-get/

[BCSpace]

The article ostensibly produced by the European journalist interviewing Sherri Dew?

[thesometimesaint]

That is wonderful! Can they serve as a bishop? Nope. Can they run the RS organization in their ward without male supervision? Nope. So whether they feel it or not they are held back.

 

They have a much more authoritative position. They are wives to the Bishops.

[Kenngo1969]

I made no choices that lead to depression. It popped up out of nowhere. My grandparents, mother and her siblings, sisters, and many of my nephews and nieces all have had depression, and now I have passed it on to most of my children. Mine was exacerbated by, in quick succession, a broken collar bone, an extreme case of shingles, the death of both parents, and severe stress at work. Food, exercise, and sleep were not helpful. Medicine was. I asked my LDS doctor what did people do before medicine. He responded, in cases like yours they became alcoholics and were institutionalized or committed suicide. I have made sure my kids know how to recognize the illness and to get help immediately. I am so thankful for Elder Holland's conference address. I wish I had heard it 40 years ago. My life would have been totally different...and that's not saying I haven't had a good life. It would have been different without depression. On the other hand, coping with depression has taught me humility, patience, and compassion for others with such illnesses.   https://beta.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/like-a-broken-vessel?lang=eng

You deserve much more than the single rep point I was able to give you, along with two additional rep points given by others as of this writing, for this post.  I'll certainly be happy to start a campaign if you like.  

[bluebell]

That is wonderful! Can they serve as a bishop? Nope. Can they run the RS organization in their ward without male supervision? Nope. So whether they feel it or not they are held back.

 

Held back from what?

 

Is there something that a person get's just by having the 'chance' to serve in a leadership position over males or by holding a leadership position that is supervised by the same gender, that is missed out on if not given that chance?

 

Given that most men will also never serve as a bishop, it must be the chance that one might be called that keeps one from being 'held back', right?

[Garden Girl]

I've always had such admiration of Sheri Dew and absolutely loved it when she would give a talk... her no nonsense, faithful attitude and manner of speaking...

Although as a strong Latter Day Saint woman myself, who was married to a non-member, who is not a mother, and someone who had worked full time for 30 years straight by time I retired, I always felt hers was a much needed voice to the women like me. 

I always felt a sadness however, that she was never married as she seemed to have so very much to give... as the years passed and she became stronger in her career, I think that men were intimidated by her... it would take a super strong LDS man to keep up with her... I feel certain she will be blessed with all the righteous desires of her heart...

 

GG

[Teancum]

Held back from what?

 

Is there something that a person get's just by having the 'chance' to serve in a leadership position over males or by holding a leadership position that is supervised by the same gender, that is missed out on if not given that chance?

 

Given that most men will also never serve as a bishop, it must be the chance that one might be called that keeps one from being 'held back', right?

Many men will serve as bishops. most won't. No woman ever will. Nor will your daughter ever administer the sacrament or perform any ordinance. Your sons will. These are simple irrefutable facts.

[Calm]

Many men will serve as bishops. most won't. No woman ever will. Nor will your daughter ever administer the sacrament or perform any ordinance. Your sons will. These are simple irrefutable facts.

I don't think anyone is arguing that.  What is being debated is the implications.  Are such restrictions also limitations in growth, service and influence basically?

[juliann]

 

I always felt a sadness however, that she was never married as she seemed to have so very much to give... as the years passed and she became stronger in her career, I think that men were intimidated by her... it would take a super strong LDS man to keep up with her... I feel certain she will be blessed with all the righteous desires of her heart...

 

GG

Ouch, what man or woman wants pity while living an accomplished and fulfilling life.   I suspect she has as many righteous desires being fulfilled as the next guy or gal....especially since there is so much divorce. 

[juliann]

I don't think anyone is arguing that.  What is being debated is the implications.  Are such restrictions also limitations in growth, service and influence basically?

Or does asking males for what males have advance a woman's position...or does it merely confirm her dependence?  I think that is a very legitimate position being expressed by what appears to be a deepening schism between schools of thought in Mormon feminism.

[juliann]

General auxiliary women presidencies, IMO, exert more influence on the Church than area authorities or seventy who preside over specific regions.

That depends on what you consider to be influence,  I suppose.   Even if those women could command the audience that these men do on a regular basis, women are rarely quoted anywhere, especially in lesson manuals, so I would question this assertion on that basis alone. 

[Garden Girl]

Ouch, what man or woman wants pity while living an accomplished and fulfilling life.   I suspect she has as many righteous desires being fulfilled as the next guy or gal....especially since there is so much divorce. 

 

Actually it isn't so much "pity" because I think you're correct that she has many satisfying accomplishments, but in our faith when a temple marriage is so much a part of the picture, is she as fulfilled as she desires to be?

When she was serving in the RS presidency, she unexpectedly visited my little ward while vacationing on the Oregon coast... she and her friend Wendy who is now married to Russell M. Nelson...

Not long after that she attended our Stake Women's conference as a speaker... she told us she had felt prompted to visit with us... during her talk she briefly told us of a time in her life when she had been involved in a relationship that did not work out and how very hurt she was so she threw herself into her career...

When I reactivated three years prior to my non-member husband's death, I felt the lonliness of always sitting in Church alone, but particularly when attending the temple alone (walking down the hallway to an endowment room, couples always seemed to hold hands, or seeing them sitting together in the Celestial Room)... yes, that weighed on my heart in spite of all the blessings in my life...

And I'm still alone...

 

GG

 

Edit to add... during her visit to our ward, as we were breaking from Sac Mtg, one of our ward sisters asked her... Are you who I think you are? 

Not long after that during one of her talks, her topic was "Are We the Women We Think We Are?"  And she told of visiting the "exquisite Oregon coast" and of being asked that question, which caused her to ponder... am I the woman I think I am?  And she centered her talk on that... are we who we think and know we should be?

Edited November 11, 2013 by Garden Girl

[bluebell]

Many men will serve as bishops. most won't. No woman ever will. Nor will your daughter ever administer the sacrament or perform any ordinance. Your sons will. These are simple irrefutable facts.

I'm not questioning the facts. I'm questioning their implications.

What exactly are your daughters being held back from? What blessings are my sons gaining that your daughters will never have access to, based on gender?

[Scott Lloyd]

That is wonderful! Can they serve as a bishop? Nope. Can they run the RS organization in their ward without male supervision? Nope. So whether they feel it or not they are held back.

I know them and  you don't. I'm fairly confident that if asked, each would tell you she doesn't need to be a bishop to feel fulfilled and validated and that in her desires to serve in an ecclesiastical setting, she doesn't feel "held back," any more than millions of other people, male and female, who serve in their callings under priesthood supervision.

 

I don't really desire to speak for them, but the fact is neither is apt to engage with carping critics on a message board. Perhaps that's to their credit and benefit.

[Tacenda]

I know them and you don't. I'm fairly confident that if asked, each would tell you she doesn't need to be a bishop to feel fulfilled and validated and that in her desires to serve in an ecclesiastical setting, she doesn't feel "held back," any more than millions of other people, male and female, who serve in their callings under priesthood supervision.

I don't really desire to speak for them, but the fact is neither is apt to engage with carping critics on a message board. Perhaps that's to their credit and benefit.

For as long as I can remember women have been told how blessed they are to have the PH blessings either in their home or through a PH leader that can be called in for blessings, if there isn't a PH holder in the home. But women have never been given the option to hold it themselves, that is foreign to them. Maybe if the subject came up that they have every right to hold it also, they might change their perception of it.

[bluebell]

For as long as I can remember women have been told how blessed they are to have the PH blessings either in their home or through a PH leader that can be called in for blessings, if there isn't a PH holder in the home. But women have never been given the option to hold it themselves, that is foreign to them. Maybe if the subject came up that they have every right to hold it also, they might change their perception of it.

 

Isn't that just saying that women aren't smart or perceptive enough to know what is best for them on their own, and that someone has to tell them something is o.k. before they will realize it's good for them?

[juliann]

I know them and  you don't. I'm fairly confident that if asked, each would tell you she doesn't need to be a bishop to feel fulfilled and validated and that in her desires to serve in an ecclesiastical setting, she doesn't feel "held back," any more than millions of other people, male and female, who serve in their callings under priesthood supervision.

 

I don't really desire to speak for them, but the fact is neither is apt to engage with carping critics on a message board. Perhaps that's to their credit and benefit.

Actually, Scott....I have been in enough auxillaries to hear the "carping" from women leaders who do feel held back because of some screwball rule or opinion imposed them by male leaders who can be pretty clueless when it comes to women folk and how things work best for them.   Now whether the same thing would happen if a woman had the final word, who knows.   But what we do know is that a man always having veto power over things he really isn't even involved with a good deal of the time can be problematic.  I don't think we lose anything by admitting that.

 

The larger question, however, is whether having these positions holds women back in some tangible manner.  I would have to ask what it holds them back from.  I go to church once a week, whatever positions I hold there do not bleed into my "real" life...the one where I have to earn money and such.  When push comes to shove, it just really doesn't matter a whole lot in the big picture.  What does matter is how we talk to women and about women and that needs to change and change fast.  That does matter when it comes to what the girls are observing and hearing. 

 

There is so much that is being ignored in this relentless push for male priesthood that I am stepping back.  I am finding their rhetoric more and more caustic and unpleasant.  Kate Kelly's attacks on the feminists who won't back her 100% were stunning and not in a good way.  Their recent conference is resorting to extreme rhetoric that is offensive and off putting.  The divide is growing.  Meanwhile, the Lady in the Temple conference was ignored by them.  It presented a way in which we can reclaim our heritage without depending on men. 

 

I look at something like the pantscapade as an example of women taking hold of their own power without begging or humiliating the other side.  I watched Ordain Women with an open...and even hopeful...mind but they have lost me with the attacks on other feminists (or "so-called feminists as Kelly referred to them).   As I try to put all of this into the bigger picture...as I fully acknowledge how far we have to go when it comes to women in the church....it looks more and more petty.  The growing vitriol reminds me of the joke about what happens when the stakes are so low.   It really is an elite Western world problem that is amplified when the rest of the less advantaged women aren't even acknowledged.  Fiona Givens' observation that we have to bring everyone along was mocked when she used Africa as an example of men joining because of the patriarchy...which also results in the women's position being raised relative to what they currently have.  That really does have to come first. I don't think we can afford to laugh the less advantaged societies off in our rush to better ourselves and ourselves only.

 

So I am currently having some issues with the direction OW is going and I don't see it getting better.  But in the meantime,  we do have to be forthright about how things really are.  And we have to remember that what people "feel" is irrelevant and actually a kind of strawman.  That isn't the point.  The institutional structure is the point.  And women are not being given similar opportunity...in addition to often being patronized and almost talked to like children.  That should just be a given.  Now, if you want to point out how someone feels about that...it is of anecdotal interest, but it is essentially off topic to the position women factually have in the church.

Edited November 11, 2013 by juliann

[juliann]

Actually it isn't so much "pity" because I think you're correct that she has many satisfying accomplishments, but in our faith when a temple marriage is so much a part of the picture, is she as fulfilled as she desires to be?

When she was serving in the RS presidency, she unexpectedly visited my little ward while vacationing on the Oregon coast... she and her friend Wendy who is now married to Russell M. Nelson...

Not long after that she attended our Stake Women's conference as a speaker... she told us she had felt prompted to visit with us... during her talk she briefly told us of a time in her life when she had been involved in a relationship that did not work out and how very hurt she was so she threw herself into her career...

When I reactivated three years prior to my non-member husband's death, I felt the lonliness of always sitting in Church alone, but particularly when attending the temple alone (walking down the hallway to an endowment room, couples always seemed to hold hands, or seeing them sitting together in the Celestial Room)... yes, that weighed on my heart in spite of all the blessings in my life...

And I'm still alone...

 

GG

 

Edit to add... during her visit to our ward, as we were breaking from Sac Mtg, one of our ward sisters asked her... Are you who I think you are? 

Not long after that during one of her talks, her topic was "Are We the Women We Think We Are?"  And she told of visiting the "exquisite Oregon coast" and of being asked that question, which caused her to ponder... am I the woman I think I am?  And she centered her talk on that... are we who we think and know we should be?

I think it comes down to we either accept that nothing will be withheld if we keep our covenants or we don't.  If we do, there isn't any reason to look at another woman's life and comment about it being incomplete or sad.   That is exactly what the militant feminists are doing with the lack of priesthood.  But mostly,  it makes it hard for singles to stay in the church when they know people are looking at them as less than or equating their worth and happiness to being married. 

[bluebell]

I think it comes down to we either accept that nothing will be withheld if we keep our covenants or we don't.  If we do, there isn't any reason to look at another woman's life and comment about it being incomplete or sad.   That is exactly what the militant feminists are doing with the lack of priesthood.  But mostly,  it makes it hard for singles to stay in the church when they know people are looking at them as less than or equating their worth and happiness to being married. 

 

What about those people who themselves believe that their life is incomplete without a spouse and who regularly express that feeling?  Can we sympathize with them without others seeing it as self righteous or judgmental?  

 

And if we can, what's the best way to do that? 

[ERayR]

Many men will serve as bishops. most won't. No woman ever will. Nor will your daughter ever administer the sacrament or perform any ordinance. Your sons will. These are simple irrefutable facts.

 

Your sons will never have the opportunity of conceiving, carrying or giving birth to a baby.  A much more profound experience than administering the sacrament, serving as a bishop or even than being called as a prophet.