Amen, Sherri Dew!

[juliann]

Glad you cleared that up for me. I think I have just a bad taste in my mouth with feminism as I have been on the other side of it. So sometimes it clouds my views.

That is why it is good to have Jazzdreamer here.  She is a good representative.  I can't begin to express the damage that has been done by miscommunication or aggression....which is why I am just banging my head on the desk over the recent ugly talk coming from them which "proves"  what you experienced.  They are now in a position where niceness is likely to be seen as a strategy rather than genuine.

[Analytics]

Exactly.  And this points out our problem.  We don't ask them to leave!  It wouldn't even occur to us.  So to me, that is the solution.  Women speaking up for themselves and creating their own rules instead of always waiting to be told.  That is our problem not a church problem.   I am going to begin by having a chat with my RS Prez.  Actually,  with the bishop, too.  I got the no opening prayer by a woman changed by just bringing it to his attention. 

 

My understanding is that the leaders of the women group at every level are chosen by men.  So if the bishop crashed relief society and the R.S. president asked him to leave, what would happen if he refused?  Would she stand by her guns and demand he leave?  If she did, could the bishop release her and call a new R.S. president that "knew her place"?

 

Of course it is hard to imagine it coming to that with real people in the real world.  But as long as it's the men who call and release the leaders of the women's organization, how much power do the women really have?

[rongo]

 But I have been very put off by the more recent attacks on moderate feminists from OW.  I have seen what I call a schism developing for some time which seemed to erupt in some very ugly stuff from Kate Kelly in the Mormon Stories comment section.   I cannot think of a more important time for women to stick together and be tolerant of one another....which is why I am fed up with trash the feminists talk even if I don't back all feminists. 

 

Can you give some examples of this? Summarized or paraphrased is fine. I don't have a lot of time to browse Mormon Stories, and would appreciate it if you could give a couple of examples.

 

Thanks!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Exactly.  And this points out our problem.  We don't ask them to leave!  It wouldn't even occur to us.  So to me, that is the solution.  Women speaking up for themselves and creating their own rules instead of always waiting to be told.  That is our problem not a church problem.   I am going to begin by having a chat with my RS Prez.  Actually,  with the bishop, too.  I got the no opening prayer by a woman changed by just bringing it to his attention. 

Ok I think I see the view. That probably should be addressed. I would be interested on what happens.

[Calm]

Can you give some examples of this? Summarized or paraphrased is fine. I don't have a lot of time to browse Mormon Stories, and would appreciate it if you could give a couple of examples.

 

Thanks!

It is best to read it in context and it doesn't take that long, just a few minutes to get Kate Kelly's comments.

See here:

http://mormonstories.org/alternative-feminist-approaches-to-ordain-women/

[Tacenda]

My understanding is that the leaders of the women group at every level are chosen by men. So if the bishop crashed relief society and the R.S. president asked him to leave, what would happen if he refused? Would she stand by her guns and demand he leave? If she did, could the bishop release her and call a new R.S. president that "knew her place"?

Of course it is hard to imagine it coming to that with real people in the real world. But as long as it's the men who call and release the leaders of the women's organization, how much power do the women really have?

This makes me think back to a time when a RS teacher stopped giving the lesson when the bishop came to listen. She was mad.

[Buckeye]

Exactly.  And this points out our problem.  We don't ask them to leave!  It wouldn't even occur to us.  So to me, that is the solution.  Women speaking up for themselves and creating their own rules instead of always waiting to be told.  That is our problem not a church problem.   I am going to begin by having a chat with my RS Prez.  Actually,  with the bishop, too.  I got the no opening prayer by a woman changed by just bringing it to his attention. 

 

Juliann, you're making some very good points.  I can't disagree except to say that, in my limited experience, the only time a man attends RS is when he is specifically requested to do so by the RS presidency.  Typically the man is a member of the bishopric.  Quite often he is asked to speak on mother's day.  Yes, the bishop has the perogative to attend RS meeting whenever he wants, and when he does so he changes the dymanics greatly because he is a man and because he holds the presiding authority.  But the bishop is specifically instructed to sit with the Priest's Quorum whenever possible and because the priests meet at the same time as the RS the bishop rarely would choose to attend RS without an invitation or other reasonable reason to be there (e.g., setting apart a new RS presidency; support his wife who asked him to come help her lesson).

 

To answer another's question, yes, the bishop calls the RS president so he can release her as his discretion.  The bishop can be a jerk about this, but in my experience bishops are really good men and the last thing they want to do is to tick off the sisters.  Pulling rank on a RS president is about the quickest way to say "amen to his priesthood" that I know of.

 

On a related issue, I was teaching the Priest Quorum this past sunday about how the church's welfare system works.  Rather than just use scriptures, we pulled out tithing forms talk about how donations work, checks and balances for protecting funds, and how the bishop works on welfare issues.  I also told them about storehouse forms and that the two people who work with those forms are the bishop and the RS president.  The priests had no idea how involved the RS president is in welfare issues.  The next time I teach a lesson like that, I'm of a mind to invite a former RS president to come into priest's quorum and teach the boys about her important work.  I'd recommend any YW organization do the same when they cover the lesson with the young women. 

Edited November 18, 2013 by Buckeye

[juliann]

My understanding is that the leaders of the women group at every level are chosen by men.  So if the bishop crashed relief society and the R.S. president asked him to leave, what would happen if he refused?  Would she stand by her guns and demand he leave?  If she did, could the bishop release her and call a new R.S. president that "knew her place"?

 

Of course it is hard to imagine it coming to that with real people in the real world.  But as long as it's the men who call and release the leaders of the women's organization, how much power do the women really have?

Well, it is limited by that, of course.  And those who insist it isn't a reality (or avoid it by talking about how good they "feel" about it)  are just as big a problem as anything OW does.   Personally,  I would follow my bishop just about anywhere.  He is that cool.  I got fed up with the political talk and enlisted him.  He did come and sit in RS the day of the lesson on the Constitution and made a few guiding comments that left no room for smack talk about liberals.   He also did that in GD.   We don't have that problem anymore...the biggest offender has actually stopped reading her Ronald Reagan quotes she keeps in her scripture bag.

 

I would also want the First Presidency in RS general meetings no matter what gender they were.  But, I cannot imagine a situation in which even a couple of women objected to the lookey loo stuff and a bishop letting it go on.  Well, ok...there is always going to be a wingnut bishop who would but you get my point.  And he will be removed in a few years and meantime every other potential bishop is being trained by the women around him.  The problem is that we always fall back on the "I'm so helpless"  rather than just taking it by the horns and making it change.

 

And Buckeye, I can't think of a better way to raise awareness and respect than bringing in women to speak to the men.  Most women have been conditioned to think priesthood gives a man more knowledge and skill.  They expect him to be the scripture experts, etc.   Women need to step it up.

Edited November 18, 2013 by juliann

[bluebell]

My understanding is that the leaders of the women group at every level are chosen by men.  So if the bishop crashed relief society and the R.S. president asked him to leave, what would happen if he refused?  Would she stand by her guns and demand he leave?  If she did, could the bishop release her and call a new R.S. president that "knew her place"?

 

Of course it is hard to imagine it coming to that with real people in the real world.  But as long as it's the men who call and release the leaders of the women's organization, how much power do the women really have?

 

I'll let Juliann speak for herself, but I've also seen this issue that she is speaking of, and been annoyed by it, and in my perception, the Bishop coming in is not the problem.

 

The bishop is the leader of the ward, and as such, has a reason to visit any class during church that he wants to.   Him being male doesn't really bother me, since he's not there based on his maleness, but based on his calling (if that makes sense).

 

On the other hand, the man that crashed Juliann's RS meeting was the Sunday school president.  Hello?  What the heck was he doing there?  He has no 'jurisdiction'.  I've also seen male missionaries attend RS meeting (the whole meeting, without converts or less actives with them, and without having any announcements to share or anything like that).  What purpose does that serve?  They don't need to be there anymore than sister missionaries need to hang out in Priesthood meetings on Sunday.

 

So this begs the question-Why do men, in general, believe that they have the right to attend RS meeting whenever they want, without having a valid reason for being there or an invitation?  And why wouldn't a woman believe that she has the same right when it comes to priesthood meetings?

 

These men were in RS meeting solely because they were men and they could be.  Their calling didn't dictate they go-their gender and how RS has been perceived by men is what allowed them to be there (it's what allowed them to believe they could be there) and nothing else.

 

And that, in my opinion, is the problem.  Not a man in RS, but the reasons that a man might believe he needs to be in RS.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

 

So this begs the question-Why do men, in general, believe that they have the right to attend RS meeting whenever they want, without having a valid reason for being there or an invitation?  And why wouldn't a woman believe that she has the same right when it comes to priesthood meetings?

 

I am not sure men feel they have the right. I know I don't beleive I have the right and I shouldn't. I am a dude I have no business being there. And I should be asked to leave. Maybe that is the approach that should be taken. Esp the missionaries. They should not be there even if they had an investigator.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[juliann]

 

 

And that, in my opinion, is the problem.  Not a man in RS, but the reasons that a man might believe he needs to be in RS.

Excellent point!

[Tacenda]

Excellent point!

So agree also!

[Calm]

I am not sure men feel they have the right.

 

I suspect it varies.  Perhaps some men feel it is their right, whether due to past or current callings they have held that have given them some sense of authority that they've just carried on with them so if they feel it would benefit their wor for some reason (perhaps the SS President was checking out RS to see who he would like to call as a SS teacher) or some men think that men have a right to visit any class they want to no matter what...and probably others, it never occurs to them there is a reason they would be forbidden...not so much that they have a right, but that there is no need for a right to begin with...while women having had lines drawn for them beyond which they are not to go, may think more in terms of needing permission than men.

 

But I would not be surprised if a number of men would never think of sitting in on RS without asking and having to have a good reason to do so if they desired to.

[ERayR]

Bluebell

So this begs the question-Why do men, in general, believe that they have the right to attend RS meeting whenever they want, without having a valid reason for being there or an invitation?  And why wouldn't a woman believe that she has the same right when it comes to priesthood meetings?

 

 

Me

I have seen no evidence that men "in general" think they have the right to attend Relief Society meetings without an invitation.  In fact I see no evidence of any men crashing RS meetings.  In my ward the Bishop leaves it to the RS president to plan and run her program as she sees fit.  Within the approved guide lines and her approved budget of course but then that goes for each organization.

Edited November 19, 2013 by ERayR

[Calm]

ERay, how do you think most men would go about attending RS if for some reason they wanted to?  Would they just assume it would be okay to walk in and sit down (not saying that they have a right to be there, but rather just don't think of it as needing permission to be there) or would they ask the women in charge permission to do so first?

[MorningStar]

We had a guy stay with his wife in RS when she was having health problems and we didn't really mind, but that would be weird if a guy were there for no reason.  We have never had a member of the bishopric teach a lesson, but we did have our bishop come in to speak to us for a while and invited us to ask whatever was on our minds.  He also addressed an issue that had happened where a sister encouraged a friend to leave her husband.  He said as a bishop, that wasn't even something he was supposed to say.  So he asked us not to make suggestions like that because it's not out place.  The sister did leave, but she came back. 

[BlueDreams]

 

Bluebell

So this begs the question-Why do men, in general, believe that they have the right to attend RS meeting whenever they want, without having a valid reason for being there or an invitation?  And why wouldn't a woman believe that she has the same right when it comes to priesthood meetings?

 

BB can answer for herself, but I'd like to take a knock at this....forgive me in advance if this isn't super coherent as I have a minor migraine. I think it goes back to inferred rules. RS isn't treated as on equal footing as a priesthood meetings/offices in general. There is simply little to no official president for women in the church having place in male-specific meetings. And RS is seen as more limited in authoritative scope to women specific issues and also subsidiary to priesthood office and roles. It's on the same par as YM/YW, sunday school, and primary....though in certain circumstances it does receive differential treatment as well....but either way, it's still supplemental. So what you get is this inferred rule (that's maintained by various policies) that RS takes care of women specific issues and priesthood offices/meetings deals with everybody (male and female, young and old). This is why it would surprise someone to find out women have active participation in the welfare budgeting. Or why all may study the priesthood session talks at Priesthood/RS meeting but not the RS talks. And it's enforced by the larger meetings like GC where women can't go to priesthood, but certain men aren't only allowed to go, but are expected (and not just the prophet or his counselors....but bishops and SP's). It continues on down to priesthood meeting and RS. Simply put, the parameters for RS is strongly put and heavily socially monitored/maintained. Where there are exceptions for men, they aren't many visible ones for women in this case. It has some unfortunate side-effects that delve into women's voice and how women authorities are viewed and utilized in the church body.      

 

Me

I have seen no evidence that men "in general" think they have the right to attend Relief Society meetings without an invitation.  In fact I see no evidence of any men crashing RS meetings.  In my ward the Bishop leaves it to the RS president to plan and run her program as she sees fit.  Within the approved guide lines and her approved budget of course but then that goes for each organization.

 

 

 

For me, I realized that I can't remember the last time the bishop or one of his counselors wasn't in RS. I know this, cuz it kinda bothers me....I don't exactly get why they're there. They don't presume to preside (at least in the normal way that you'd usually see, like sitting in the front, or being turned to for decisions, or officially turning the time over to the RS Prez, etc), but they're there. So it gets this feeling that they're there to watch and thus watch over. My ward is a YSA so it's already a little different in how things go, i don't know if that plays a part. But frankly I forgot that the bishopric don't have to be there. 

 

 

With luv,

BD

[Garden Girl]

 

For me, I realized that I can't remember the last time the bishop or one of his counselors wasn't in RS. I know this, cuz it kinda bothers me....I don't exactly get why they're there. They don't presume to preside (at least in the normal way that you'd usually see, like sitting in the front, or being turned to for decisions, or officially turning the time over to the RS Prez, etc), but they're there. So it gets this feeling that they're there to watch and thus watch over. My ward is a YSA so it's already a little different in how things go, i don't know if that plays a part. But frankly I forgot that the bishopric don't have to be there. 

 

Really?  I can't remember the last time the bishop or one of his counselors did attend RS...  I can't imagine why they attend in your ward... I think that is totally not the norm...

 

GG

[Calm]

A lot of single men probably could do with visiting teachers, if only to help them with their household and dating skills for those not particularly skilled in either.

 

On a more serious note, if the priesthood is important enough to ensure it is present in every member's life, then it seems that quality of women that adds to everyone's lives, however defined is lacking in single men's life and it would probably be a nice thing for them to have a chance to have full access to it just as women due to priesthood power.

[Calm]

Really?  I can't remember the last time the bishop or one of his counselors did attend RS...  I can't imagine why they attend in your ward... I think that is totally not the norm...

 

GG

Being a YSA ward, the bishop doesn't have to be with the Young Men and probably he and his counselors wants to be sure to get to know everyone which can be most easily done by attending all the meetings.  And it can be harder in a YSA to get to know everyone because in a family ward one only really needs to make a connection with one of the family and then the connection is usually spread through the rest of the family and the bishop et al pick up enough from one or two family members to know the needs of all.

 

An entire ward one has to interrelate to as individuals...much harder to get to know them.  Even with the branch presidents of a full year in university, I think I only talked to one once in four years and that was when they had lost my baptism date, thought I was a nonmember and invited me to see the missionaries.

[Jazzdreamer]

Juliann's point is that a sister would probably not be allowed to sit in on a priesthood lesson. More than likely she would be asked to leave.

Women are DEFINITELY allowed to sit in on a priesthood lesson. There's no rules against it. You're allowed.

[Jazzdreamer]

I agree with bluebell, I think the reaction might have been quite different if someone had stated "I'd like to go so I can better support my brethren in their Priesthood" rather than making it a symbolic acceptance of the ultimate goal of OW.

This is a response to both you and Bluebell.

Im gonna say it's all about how you interpret it.

I interpreted Kate Kelly's statement that women wanted to signal to the church that we were ready to be considered as prospective elders. The action had more to do with our intentions, rather than the church's.

[Jazzdreamer]

Really? I can't remember the last time the bishop or one of his counselors did attend RS... I can't imagine why they attend in your ward... I think that is totally not the norm...

GG

Elders taught in our RS one day...

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Women are DEFINITELY allowed to sit in on a priesthood lesson. There's no rules against it. You're allowed.

WEll...... I guess I could go either way on this matter. I feel like men should not attend RS unless they are a bishop or something and have a reason and women shouldn't attend priesthood. At the same time I can see some good in an "open door" type policy. Ok I aguess i'll just be agnostic about this issue.

[bluebell]

Women are DEFINITELY allowed to sit in on a priesthood lesson. There's no rules against it. You're allowed.

 

That isn't the point, for two reasons.

 

1-The church is not just about 'rules'.  It's a cultural experience as much as it is anything else.  And culturally, this is an issue.

 

2-Whether or not there are rules against it, I don't belong in a priesthood lesson.  Unless I'm specifically invited for a purpose, it is just plain bad manners for anyone to assume they have the right to attend a class they are not a member of.  

 

Also, it's not up to OW, or any other person, to tell other members of the church what they are 'definitely allowed' to do in church.  That is a usurpation of authority that they don't posses.