Caroline Kline : Mormon Women Have Their Say

[DBMormon]

I'm having trouble subscribing in order to listen to this and the other podcasts requiring a fee.   What do you think I'm doing wrong?  Is it just me?     

 

Tacenda - go here and pick which subscription you want

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/premium-signup

 

Once you do that you will get a email from me with username and password.

[Bob Crockett]

The discussion got away from things being talked about with me, and as usual Bob Crockett jumped in and took my quotes that were posted without context and became critical, so I chose to stay out of the conversation.  Point me to which comment you made that you want a response, and I will be happy to.

I'm sorry you don't like my comments.   I just disagree with your entire approach.  If you'd like, I can summarize my objections in the context of this post.  But there are many folks here with whom I disagree.  I'm sure you disagree with some people here.  It isn't a personal attack; just a difference of opinion.  I'm sure you're doing it all in good faith.

 

I think this board is a means to knowledge; disagreements are stated and resolved or not resolved.  As long as it doesn't get personal I don't see anything wrong with it.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Bob Crockett

[SamIam]

The discussion got away from things being talked about with me, and as usual Bob Crockett jumped in and took my quotes that were posted without context and became critical, so I chose to stay out of the conversation.  Point me to which comment you made that you want a response, and I will be happy to.

However, there were other of us who early on in the thread gave alternative, reasonable considerations to the other side of the discussion of women and the priesthood and the mistaken notion that a change is required, which also never received responses. For this cause, "I chose to stay out of the conversation" as well.

 

 

Bottom line though is whenever I see individuals subscribing to to a pattern that has been dictated only and solely by a change in societal definitions then I am sure these people do not know which way they face, to put it in the words of Elder Packer.  They do not draw their direction from the general authorities but from societies authority in general.

 

 

Nonetheless, I cannot say that this enabling mentality may not have some benefit to slowing some few down from wholesale apostasy and abandonment of the church.  However, if any are to remain in the church and regain the strength and stability of the stalwart they will of necessity need to overcome the mistaken notions of this very issue which thwarts the establishment of true understanding of why Christ organized the church in the meridian of time upon the same principles we see it established now.  The priesthood is an onerous but important blessing that is the provision of the worthy males in the kingdom, wielded in behalf of all, sisters included and it will remain such as to alter this order would only destroy the kingdom of God. 

[DBMormon]

However, there were other of us who early on in the thread gave alternative, reasonable considerations to the other side of the discussion of women and the priesthood and the mistaken notion that a change is required, which also never received responses. For this cause, "I chose to stay out of the conversation" as well.

 

 

Bottom line though is whenever I see individuals subscribing to to a pattern that has been dictated only and solely by a change in societal definitions then I am sure these people do not know which way they face, to put it in the words of Elder Packer.  They do not draw their direction from the general authorities but from societies authority in general.

 

 

Nonetheless, I cannot say that this enabling mentality may not have some benefit to slowing some few down from wholesale apostasy and abandonment of the church.  However, if any are to remain in the church and regain the strength and stability of the stalwart they will of necessity need to overcome the mistaken notions of this very issue which thwarts the establishment of true understanding of why Christ organized the church in the meridian of time upon the same principles we see it established now.  The priesthood is an onerous but important blessing that is the provision of the worthy males in the kingdom, wielded in behalf of all, sisters included and it will remain such as to alter this order would only destroy the kingdom of God. 

 

Samlam, I am always listening when your talking.  My podcast is there to talk about issues and to allow people struggling to see different frameworks.  My podcast is not for the member who has never encountered this stuff or the ex mormon.  It is for the one who is struggling and needs to explore these issues and the one who wants to.

[SamIam]

Samlam, I am always listening when your talking.  My podcast is there to talk about issues and to allow people struggling to see different frameworks.  My podcast is not for the member who has never encountered this stuff or the ex mormon.  It is for the one who is struggling and needs to explore these issues and the one who wants to.

In many ways, it almost seems as your approach is similar to my own.  I do not shut people down if there is any other way to reach them and certainly it is a far better principle to listen before one speaks.  If that is your objective then as I said before perhaps there is merit.  However, I think we may depart in other ways from this pattern.  While it may takes years to move someone from the point of misunderstanding to a point of understanding the intent, from my perspective is to slowly teach correct principles that they can eventually align their testimonies along correct knowledge and insight.  Sometimes, though,  I think others are sympathetic to social causes that have no place in the church and yet in the case of the sisters and the priesthood, it is easy to justify certain of these causes, when one does not understand the doctrine of the priesthood.  

 

So when you say your effort is to explore these issues, is it because you are sympathetic to the issue, or because you are simply trying to provide a soft landing place closer to the gospel, than if they were to fall all the way outside the gate for feeling alienated by the less sensitive?

[Scott Lloyd]

The quickest answer is that priesthood is required as a matter of practice by the CHI.  Same thing with the CHI requirement that YM receive the AP in order to do baptisms in the temple.  Theoretically, no priesthood is really needed in these instances.  A YM could be baptized without priesthood.  And a male missionary could teach, serve, tract (whoops, no more tracting) and do everything but ordinances as a missionary just fine.  So in theory he could serve a mission and let others do the priesthood ordinances. 

 

Why the church requires ordination is an interesting question.  For missionaries, I think we feel some need for servants to be "authorized."  An AOF comes to mind.  But that begs the question of how Sister Missionaries can be deemed authorized representatives of the Lord.  If they can do it without ordination than perhaps so could men. 

 

And to be clear, I don't want YM to turn down the priesthood.  I think they lose out on a lot when they do.  But when someone asks what women "miss out on" by not being ordained, I find the quickest way to get to the answer is to ask what men would miss out on if they declined ordination. 

Oops.

 

You used the phrase "begs the question" in an improper manner.

 

"Begging the question" (Latin petitio principal) is a form of logical fallacy in which the argument is assumed to be true without evidence other than the argument itself. It does not mean "to raise the question."

 

See here.

[Stone holm]

IIRC, there is a significantly higher number of LDS women who go to college than the general public, so I don't think they are being told to just wait around for a guy.  However, that number drops when it gets to completing college and really drops for higher degrees (again, IIRC) and if so, that could indicate that college is looked on as filling time until getting married as opposed to important in order to prepare for a career.

 

Or that is an indication that BYU is really and truly a marriage mill which distorts a lot of statistics -- but I would say that more and more LDS women are getting advanced education to the extent they are outstripping Mormon males -- a fact that the late President noted with some disatisfaction.

[juliann]

New stats:

 

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/12/11/on-pay-gap-millennial-women-near-parity-for-now/

[Stone holm]

New stats:

 

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/12/11/on-pay-gap-millennial-women-near-parity-for-now/

If I am understanding this correctly, it's taking time out to have kids which is creating the discrepancy. In other words our system is forcing women to choose between the two, and thus far enough are choosing to have kids to skew the statistics. Course if employment continues to stagnate, women may start changing their attitude.

[juliann]

If I am understanding this correctly, it's taking time out to have kids which is creating the discrepancy. In other words our system is forcing women to choose between the two, and thus far enough are choosing to have kids to skew the statistics. Course if employment continues to stagnate, women may start changing their attitude.

This would indicate to me that it is an interpersonal problem rather than a workforce problem.   When so few men say having children effects their career and so many women do, something is going to have to change at home to even things out.  What was most interesting to me was that people thought women faced more discrimination but when asked about their own situations they thought they had equal opportunity.   Considering that women do have more interruptions in careers and tend to cluster in lower paying "womens" work, I no longer think that it can be claimed there is an unfair pay gap...at least according to this poll.

[Buckeye]

Oops.

 

You used the phrase "begs the question" in an improper manner.

 

"Begging the question" (Latin petitio principal) is a form of logical fallacy in which the argument is assumed to be true without evidence other than the argument itself. It does not mean "to raise the question."

 

See here.

 

Duly noted.  I am honored you would go back to a 3 month old post to point out a gramatical mistake.  Perhaps you should contact the COB regarding the same mistake in the 2001 New Era.  Someone might lose their testimony over it.

 

 

Laury Livsey, “Collecting Kindness,” New Era, Mar 2001, 20

 

It’s contagious—and Marjon thinks everyone should be a carrier.

 

Some are written on scraps of paper, and some are typed. Some are in pencil by children who are just learning to write, and some are from high school students. The sheets of paper that Marjon Brady collects all have one thing in common: each lists a good deed.

 

One day when I was walking in the Arizona heat, someone stopped me on the side of the road and handed me half a gallon of water. At first I told those who offered it that I was fine, but they insisted so I consented.—Geoff

 

My dad and I mowed the lawn for someone who was hurt in a crash.—Brad

 

There are literally hundreds of short stories in Marjon’s scrapbook telling of good deeds. She gladly shows her collection to anybody interested in looking. But the collection begs the question: Why?

 

 

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=110&sourceId=7e83e257075fb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

[Scott Lloyd]

Duly noted. I am honored you would go back to a 3 month old post to point out a gramatical mistake.

It's a usage mistake, not a grammatical one.

And I'm glad to help.

Perhaps you should contact the COB regarding the same mistake in the 2001 New Era. Someone might lose their testimony over it.

I don't think it will be a testimony breaker, but it's just as wrong in the New Era as it is anywhere else.

It's a fairly common error. A good many violators don't even know it's an error.

To my chagrin I've found numerous instances of it in the Deseret News.

I've even seen it on a Church News proof. Fortunately, I caught it before it went to press.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Stone holm]

This would indicate to me that it is an interpersonal problem rather than a workforce problem.   When so few men say having children effects their career and so many women do, something is going to have to change at home to even things out.  What was most interesting to me was that people thought women faced more discrimination but when asked about their own situations they thought they had equal opportunity.   Considering that women do have more interruptions in careers and tend to cluster in lower paying "womens" work, I no longer think that it can be claimed there is an unfair pay gap...at least according to this poll.

Some of the women's responses were interesting in their self denial. I had a son once claim that many of his female law school professors were lesbians, he attributed that to the fact that their careers were not interrupted by having a family. Not sure if his claims were true. He, however, has really shouldered his fair share of the domestic and parenting responsibilities so both he and his wife could have professional careers. Since he practices law and she teaches and practices medicine, it can be done. But it's not easy. If we really support family values, we might want to devote just a little attention to encouraging legislation and social changes and programs which help women to be able to have both careers and families and knock off all the gender stereotyping, but that's just my opinion.

[Tacenda]

Duly noted.  I am honored you would go back to a 3 month old post to point out a gramatical mistake.  Perhaps you should contact the COB regarding the same mistake in the 2001 New Era.  Someone might lose their testimony over it.

 

 

Laury Livsey, “Collecting Kindness,” New Era, Mar 2001, 20

 

It’s contagious—and Marjon thinks everyone should be a carrier.

 

Some are written on scraps of paper, and some are typed. Some are in pencil by children who are just learning to write, and some are from high school students. The sheets of paper that Marjon Brady collects all have one thing in common: each lists a good deed.

 

One day when I was walking in the Arizona heat, someone stopped me on the side of the road and handed me half a gallon of water. At first I told those who offered it that I was fine, but they insisted so I consented.—Geoff

 

My dad and I mowed the lawn for someone who was hurt in a crash.—Brad

 

There are literally hundreds of short stories in Marjon’s scrapbook telling of good deeds. She gladly shows her collection to anybody interested in looking. But the collection begs the question: Why?

 

 

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=110&sourceId=7e83e257075fb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

 

http://www.cafepress.com/begthequestion

 

I think Scott might own stock in this company. 

[Scott Lloyd]

http://www.cafepress.com/begthequestion

 

I think Scott might own stock in this company. 

No, but I wouldn't mind owning the products -- except for one of them, which is a tad creepy.

 

I might mention here that this is nothing personal against you or Buckeye. I simply did a Google search on "begs the question" and "Mormon Dialogue," and you two just happened to pop up as the most recent hits.

[Buckeye]

No, but I wouldn't mind owning the products -- except for one of them, which is a tad creepy.

 

I might mention here that this is nothing personal against you or Buckeye. I simply did a Google search on "begs the question" and "Mormon Dialogue," and you two just happened to pop up as the most recent hits.

 

Funny, that's essentially the same approach I used to find the New Era article - I plugged "begs the question" into LDS.org.

[Scott Lloyd]

Funny, that's essentially the same approach I used to find the New Era article - I plugged "begs the question" into LDS.org.

Yeah. It's so common, you don't have to look very long or hard to find examples.

[DBMormon]

Did any of you listen to the actual interview with Carolyn Kline? lol

[Scott Lloyd]

Who is Carolyn Kline? I just came on here to talk about "begging the question."

[Tacenda]

Who is Carolyn Kline? I just came on here to talk about "begging the question."

 

Did any of you listen to the actual interview with Carolyn Kline? lol

 

 

I beg to differ!  I did listen to Carolyn Kline!  But can't remember a dang thing but will try to re-listen!  Now don't put in "beg to differ" please!

[Bernard Gui]

Did any of you listen to the actual interview with Carolyn Kline? lol

Yes....from 12 September, page 8 of this discussion:

OK. It looks like I'm the one that takes the bullet....I actually listened to the whole podcast, and some parts several times. It is relatively moderate, say a 6 on a scale of 1 (orthodox) to 10 (apostasy).

Here are some things that interested me:

Bernard: Why do so many of these folks teach Gospel Doctrine class? Just wondering.

Bernard: It bothered Kline that no men are punished for Adam's sin, but women are punished for Eve's sin. I don't see it that way. My brow is quite sweaty today. Also, I am 66 years closer to death than when I was born , and a whole bunch less innocent.

Kline: "One of the things I love about Mormonism the most is this idea of an open canon and continuing revelation and that the Mormon Church is continually open to progress and change. I mean this is what the Church is. It is progression. It is change. And so when I see moments like this where women are praying in general conference this is the thing I love most about Mormonism, we're changing and I think we need to change more."

Bernard: I have never heard anyone express that the most beloved thing about Mormonism is that it changes. Mercy and forgiveness are at the top of my list. Maybe I don't run in the right circles.

Reel: "We should embrace change and that is what our church is founded upon."

Bernard: Really? Our Church is founded upon change? Nothing about Christ, the Rock, the Author and Finisher of our faith, our Lord and Savior?

Kline (paraphrased): Quoting a feminist theologian....A woman's greatest sin is selflessness. Becoming a zero, a nothing. They didn't matter all that much. I found more women rejected that paradigm.

Bernard: Is that the Mormon paradigm?

Reel: "How flexible can the gospel be?"

Bernard: Perhaps we are about to find out.

Interview: Much discussion about men bossing women around...."pulling the priesthood card."

Bernard: I've had over 50 years of training in priesthood meetings, leadership, etc., but I've never been encouraged to "pull the priesthood card."

Bernard: There was a claim made that there was very harsh male domination rhetoric in the Church during the1800. Some examples?

Reel (paraphrase): There is a big push in the church to ordain women to the priesthood.

Bernard: I haven't seen that push in our area yet.

Kline: "I am a big fan of women expanding their spheres of access and opportunity, and what these 'ordain women' really want is...they want to serve and bless and do all these things that they see the men around them doing because they want to be closer to Jesus and God.... They are worried about their daughters. They know what their daughters see when they go out into the world. They see women executives. They see women presidents of companies. They see women being able to do almost everything that men do, and then we go to church and we don't see a single woman up on the stand. And so they are very concerned about what this is going to do to our young women. What is the likelihood of them staying when they see this huge discrepancy."

Bernard: I don't see how men can be closer to Jesus and God than women are because they have the priesthood. To me, this is not an impediment. So, it all comes down to keeping the young women in the church by giving them the priesthood?

Kline (paraphrase): I reject God thinking of women as second-class beings.

Bernard: Does God think of women as second-class beings? This is new to me.

And later, I said:

Well, I'm here to tell you the Church changes.

From the 1944 Handbook of Instructions:

"No specific instruction has been given that women should remove their hats during Church services.

Common courtesy would, of course, require that any large hats which obstruct the view of those in

the rear should be removed in Church as well as in other gatherings; but where hats do not obstruct

the view, the matter of their removal should be left to the individuals. Ushers should refrain from asking

any woman to remove her hat."

Now that is not harsh rhetoric, and it definitely is not bossing women around...no pulling the priesthood card...just the opposite! We are making progress.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[DBMormon]

wow.... glad you enjoyed it......   ok people nothing to see here, move one.

in all seriousness it would take too long to address but your kind of hard on what is meant when one is decribing being founded on.  God himself said talking of revelation aka divine change - upon this rock will I build my church.  so you blaming Christ too?

Edited December 14, 2013 by DBMormon

[juliann]

 

Now that is not harsh rhetoric, and it definitely is not bossing women around...no pulling the priesthood card...just the opposite! We are making progress.

That is good that you have had such positive experiences as a man.  But that does not have much to do with a woman expressing her less than good experience because those experiences aren't erased by someone else's experience. So you really haven't addressed any of what was said at all aside from saying they are deluded for all practical purposes.

[Tacenda]

It's wear pants to church day tomorrow, for the women. Wear purple for the men. Thank me later, those that wear purple a lot!

[DBMormon]

I love purple but don't have purple pants.  If I had purple parachute pants, I would rock them.  Imagine me in these!!!! ahhhhh yeahhhhhh

Edited December 15, 2013 by DBMormon