Caroline Kline : Mormon Women Have Their Say

[Bernard Gui]

Surely you are joking. A child of God was turned away because of his apparel? This is sarcasm right?

Surely, I am joking. Except about the Relief Society cluckers. 

[bluebell]

 Again, I don't agree. Scripture clearly indicates Adam (man) must toil to support wife and children. And if he

is unable to do so, the responsibility falls on the Church. We have eliminated that both clauses and now women

have both obligations: to bear the children and to provide for their sustenance.

 

Even in families where men do very much toil to support their families, that has never stopped women from working right along side them.  Even the temple film shows Adam and Eve working together-Adam is never working alone for the support of their family.  

 

I think it's a really short-sighted view that suggests that Adam was the only one in the pair to sweat in order to take care of his family.

[Stone holm]

Even in families where men do very much toil to support their families, that has never stopped women from working right along side them.  Even the temple film shows Adam and Eve working together-Adam is never working alone for the support of their family.  

 

I think it's a really short-sighted view that suggests that Adam was the only one in the pair to sweat in order to take care of his family.

So you want the men to bear the children?

[bluebell]

So you want the men to bear the children?

This isn't about wanting things to be different. It's just about being willing to acknowledge the way things are.

[Stone holm]

This isn't about wanting things to be different. It's just about being willing to acknowledge the way things are.

You want us to acknowledge childbirth is painful and both genders have functioning sweat glands, no problem. You think that the Genesis account is a tadbit sexist, no problem. Might go a bit farther and suggest gender stereotyping in the Church is a little sexist.

[bluebell]

You want us to acknowledge childbirth is painful and both genders have functioning sweat glands, no problem. You think that the Genesis account is a tadbit sexist, no problem. Might go a bit farther and suggest gender stereotyping in the Church is a little sexist.

If you remember, this initial conversation did not come out of the blue, but was in response to a post where Bernard implied that men and women experienced the same exact consequences because of the fall.

I pointed out that wasn't the case.

I never tried to make the conversation about more than that.

If the discussion was to obvious for you, and thus unnecessary, or required condescension, I am sorry.

[Bernard Gui]

Even in families where men do very much toil to support their families, that has never stopped women from working right along side them.  Even the temple film shows Adam and Eve working together-Adam is never working alone for the support of their family.  

 

I think it's a really short-sighted view that suggests that Adam was the only one in the pair to sweat in order to take care of his family.

And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. Thorns also, and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, and thou shalt eat the herb of the field. By the sweat of thy bface shalt thou eat bread, until thou shalt return unto the ground—for thou shalt surely die—for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou wast, and unto dust shalt thou return.

[bluebell]

And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. Thorns also, and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, and thou shalt eat the herb of the field. By the sweat of thy bface shalt thou eat bread, until thou shalt return unto the ground—for thou shalt surely die—for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou wast, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

Exactly.

 

And the ground is still just as cursed for Eve as it is for Adam, and Eve eats in sorrow just like adam, and deals with the thorns and thistles it now produces, just like Adam.  She sweats to eat bread, just like Adam does, and Eve dies just like Adam.

 

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

 

Eve gets these consequences all to herself though.  

 

It just is what it is.  

[DBMormon]

I don't agree with the pants thing, mostly because I do wear pants to church on occasion and don't want it associated with an unrelated cause that has no logical connection to clothing.  It also annoys me that they are constantly talking about how hard it is and how mean people are to them when I haven't seen any real life bad experiences expressed (not that I have read every remark from them).  The experiences they shared about the pants were uniformly glowing.  But they still want to see themselves as being attacked.

 

But here you are doing exactly that for no good reason.   It demeans us all as Mormons and followers of Christ.

 

As for Adam and Eve's punishments, Eve had two that Adam didn't.  So I think it is fair to say she got the raw end of the deal.

 

 

If God didn't see it as important enough to straighten his children and his authorized Church out on their false teachings of Interracial Marriage as Sin or that Black people were inferior or cursed - do you really think he cares what we wear to Church on Sunday between a dress and pants or a White shirt and tie or a pink one (yes I wear pink and actually rock it!)?

Edited December 20, 2013 by DBMormon

[rongo]

yes I wear pink and actually rock it!

 

You go, you awesome bishop dude, you! 

[Calm]

If God didn't see it as important enough to straighten his children and his authorized Church out on their false teachings of Interracial Marriage as Sin or that Black people were inferior or cursed - do you really think he cares what we wear to Church on Sunday between a dress and pants or a White shirt and tie or a pink one (yes I wear pink and actually rock it!)?

I think you missed this...

"mostly because I do wear pants to church on occasion"

[Bernard Gui]

Eve gets these consequences all to herself though.  

It just is what it is.  

Only if she chooses to bear children, of course.

If a man chooses to father children, then his sorrows

are also multiplied in childbirth, because he must now toil and

waste away his life providing for his wife and children.

If he does not do this, he is under condemnation.

That some women are forced to bear both burdens is

not pleasing to God, despite what progressivism and

feminism may teach.

[Bernard Gui]

If you remember, this initial conversation did not come out of the blue, but was in response to a post where Bernard implied that men and women experienced the same exact consequences because of the fall.

This initial conversation actually came about because of the claim

that women are punished because of the sin of Eve, but men are

not punished by the fall of Adam. I don't recall implying that the

consequences of the Fall are exactly the same for men and women.

I do maintain that there was a consequence unique to Adam and a consequence

unique to Eve, because God directed the words to each person by name.

We have conflated the two to the detriment of women, who now sometimes must

bear both burdens. Adam would not have done that.

[Bernard Gui]

You go, you awesome bishop dude, you! 

Is sacrament meeting the appropriate place to rock it?

[Stone holm]

Only if she chooses to bear children, of course.

If a man chooses to father children, then his sorrows

are also multiplied in childbirth, because he must now toil and

waste away his life providing for his wife and children.

If he does not do this, he is under condemnation.

That some women are forced to bear both burdens is

not pleasing to God, despite what progressivism and

feminism may teach.

I am going to take a chance and assume you are being serious. Exactly who do you think ran the farms, businesses, and ranches during the pioneer days when the men were called away on missions? And do you have any concept of the work involved with being a wife on a farm or ranch back then? Do you suppose that the woman just played with the kids in the nursery all day? Have you seen the dresses that were designed for Mormon women back then which held their elbows in a certain way to assist them in being constantly at work. The farms, ranches, and businesses were family partnerships, fathers ( when they weren't on missions worked) mothers worked,daughters worked, and sons worked together.

[Bernard Gui]

If God didn't see it as important enough to straighten his children and his authorized Church out on their false teachings of Interracial Marriage as Sin or that Black people were inferior or cursed - do you really think he cares what we wear to Church on Sunday between a dress and pants or a White shirt and tie or a pink one (yes I wear pink and actually rock it!)?

What do you think the consequences would have been if the church had

encouraged and consecrated interracial marriages between 1840 and, say,1960?

Is sacrament meeting an appropriate place to rock?

Edited December 21, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

I do maintain that there was a consequence unique to Adam and a consequence

unique to Eve, because God directed the words to each person by name.

We have conflated the two to the detriment of women, who now sometimes must

bear both burdens. Adam would not have done that.

you have put this in such a way to cause me to think I may need to think some more about it.

Thank you. Always enjoy it when this happens.

[Bernard Gui]

you have put this in such a way to cause me to think I may need to think some more about it.

Thank you. Always enjoy it when this happens.

Oh my. You are too kind! I would really like to know what you come up with.

[rongo]

Is sacrament meeting the appropriate place to rock?

 

That was my point. I guess it is if you're Bill Reel, the super-cool, edgy, podcastin', John Dehlin wannabe bishop.

 

Rock on in that pink shirt, dude!

[Tacenda]

That was my point. I guess it is if you're Bill Reel, the super-cool, edgy, podcastin', John Dehlin wannabe bishop.

Rock on in that pink shirt, dude!

Rongo, tell us how you really feel.

[bluebell]

This initial conversation actually came about because of the claim

that women are punished because of the sin of Eve, but men are

not punished by the fall of Adam. I don't recall implying that the

consequences of the Fall are exactly the same for men and women.

I do maintain that there was a consequence unique to Adam and a consequence

unique to Eve, because God directed the words to each person by name.

We have conflated the two to the detriment of women, who now sometimes must

bear both burdens. Adam would not have done that.

 

I think we've both explained ourselves (a few times), and seeing as how it's Christmas break and all, it's probably time to just agree to disagree.  

[rongo]

rongo, tell us how you really feel

 

lol  That's an inside joke my wife and I have when someone makes it obvious where they are on something. "Don't hold back. Tell me how you really feel."

 

I've said it to middle school/junior high students, too . . .

[Bernard Gui]

I think we've both explained ourselves (a few times), and seeing as how it's Christmas break and all, it's probably time to just agree to disagree.  

Yep. Merry Christmas!