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Caroline Kline : Mormon Women Have Their Say

DBMormon

By DBMormon
in General Discussions

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Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

I love purple but don't have purple pants. If I had purple parachute pants, I would rock them. Imagine me in these!!!! ahhhhh yeahhhhhh

92958ae401606a3e382e3132679f205d.image.3

So eighties!
Bernard Gui Grand Master

Bernard Gui

Posted
Posted

It's wear pants to church day tomorrow, for the women. Wear purple for the men. Thank me later, those that wear purple a lot!;)

Do you believe it is appropriate to take social and political conflicts into sacrament meeting?

bluebell Grand Master

bluebell

Posted
Posted (edited)

No, but that's just me.

Do you usually encourage people to do something, or to thank you for reminding them to do it, that you sincerely believe to be innapropriate?

;)

Edited by bluebell
Stone holm Grand Master

Stone holm

Posted
Posted

Do you believe it is appropriate to take social and political conflicts into sacrament meeting?

Why not? I mean it's not bringing a social conflict there if we don't require them to dress in a certain way to begin with, but maybe you are right because it would be distracting if we had a men wear dresses day.

Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted (edited)

Bluebell,

If you read my post again it was for men that wear purple a lot, they may not want to wear purple today, if they don't want to be part of the protest. That's why I put "thank me later" jokingly. But I don't begrudge anyone for doing this.

Edited by Tacenda
bluebell Grand Master

bluebell

Posted
Posted

Bluebell,

If you read my post again it was for men that wear purple a lot, they may not want to wear purple today, if they don't want to be part of the protest. That's why I put "thank me later" jokingly. But I don't begrudge anyone for doing this.

I was just teasing you tacenda. :D
Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

It is much nicer outside today. I actually managed to walk to church!

First time I've seen the sun in days. The Inversion is killer!
Stone holm Grand Master

Stone holm

Posted
Posted

Only saw one Sister in Church today wearing pants, but because of the snowstorm we had very few in attendance, most were still digging out.

Bernard Gui Grand Master

Bernard Gui

Posted
Posted

Why not? I mean it's not bringing a social conflict there if we don't require them to dress in a certain way to begin with, but maybe you are right because it would be distracting if we had a men wear dresses day.

Maybe we don't agree on the purpose of sacrament meeting.

Bernard Gui Grand Master

Bernard Gui

Posted
Posted (edited)

That is good that you have had such positive experiences as a man.  But that does not have much to do with a woman expressing her less than good experience because those experiences aren't erased by someone else's experience. So you really haven't addressed any of what was said at all aside from saying they are deluded for all practical purposes.

What positive experiences have I had as a man? That has nothing to do with my response to the interview. Let's try just one issue:

It bothered Kline that no men are punished for Adam's sin, but women are punished for Eve's sin. I don't see it that way. My brow is quite sweaty today. Also, I am 66 years closer to death than when I was born , and a whole bunch less innocent.

 

Is it true that no men are punished for Adam's sin, but women are punished for Eve's sin? 

Does Kline's statement even make sense?

 

 

Working for your bread by the sweat of your brow, dealing with the constant thorns and thistles, being subject to sin and its consequences and death are the results of Adam's sin.

I suppose one could say they are positive, because experiencing them is why we were sent here. No one gets a pass. 

So, what is the punishment for Eve's sin?

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
1
Bernard Gui Grand Master

Bernard Gui

Posted
Posted (edited)

wow.... glad you enjoyed it......   ok people nothing to see here, move one.

in all seriousness it would take too long to address but your kind of hard on what is meant when one is decribing being founded on.  God himself said talking of revelation aka divine change - upon this rock will I build my church.  so you blaming Christ too?

Not so much enjoyed it as was amused by it. So many really consequential things we face each day,

and here we have a group that wants to wear pants and purple ties to church. Go ahead. Wear the pants. Wear the ties.

Express your outrage in sacrament meeting, the best of all possible places to express outrage. Who cares?

 

"If you don't give me the Priesthood, I'm going to wear pants to church and try to break into your meetings!

If you don't ordain girls to the Priesthood, they are going to go inactive! If you don't give me the Priesthood

I'm going to hold my breath until I die!"

 

Ordaining young men to the Priesthood hasn't prevented many of them from falling away, but surely it will work with the young women.

 

This is just as silly as having to write a church policy about not asking ladies to remove their hats in sacrament meeting or forbidding

men to wear waders or hip boots while performing baptisms.

 

Sisters, having had my conscience raised in the 60s and 70s, I recommend real protest if your are serious. Ladies...if you want the Priesthood

that bad, break some stuff and hurt some people. Chain yourself to the temple gates. Lie down in front of missionaries' bicycles.

Get some real attention. Put something on the line. None of this namby-pamby wear-pants-to-church-purple-ties faux protest stuff. 

 

Women being nothing, zero. Is that the Mormon paradigm?

 

I love seeing women pray in Conference, too, but that's not the thing I love most.

 

Are men closer to God than women because men have the priesthood? How is that, since God is no respecter of persons and position has nothing

to do with salvation?

 

Do we believe God thinks of women as second-class beings?

 

Surely there are chauvinistic Priesthood oafs out there that "Pull the Priesthood Card." I don't recall ever being taught that is how men should act.

 

Just how big is this push in the Church to ordain women? Somewhat big? Big? Really big? Really really really big?

 

Do you really think the Church is founded on change and not Jesus Christ? Enough to say I "blame Christ," whatever that means?

 

"Wherefore, I am in your midst, and I am the good shepherd, and the stone of Israel. He that buildeth upon this rock shall never fall."

 

"And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless woe, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall."

 

On the other hand, just as Brother Brigham and his fellow oppressors gave up on their generation regarding the Word of Wisdom and focused their

attention on the next generation, ditto the brethren at the end of polygamy when the old school patriarchs died out, and now we fold up our tents on homosexuality,

the Priesthood ban, the Lamanite issue, the offenses of the temple, and the Pearl of Great Price, perhaps the Lord is just waiting for old coots like me to die off so the Church can progress. 

Edited by Bernard Gui
1
Bernard Gui Grand Master

Bernard Gui

Posted
Posted

Only saw one Sister in Church today wearing pants, but because of the snowstorm we had very few in attendance, most were still digging out.

Ah, but somewhere, some place, in some ward in this vast Church of ours today, a sister wore pants because she wants to be ordained to the Priesthood.

She is down for the struggle! Viva la revolucion!

Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

Not so much enjoyed it as was amused by it. So many really consequential things we face each day,

and here we have a group that wants to wear pants and purple ties to church. Go ahead. Wear the pants. Wear the ties.

Express your outrage in sacrament meeting, the best of all possible places to express outrage. Who cares?

"If you don't give me the Priesthood, I'm going to wear pants to church and try to break into your meetings!

If you don't ordain girls to the Priesthood, they are going to go inactive! If you don't give me the Priesthood

I'm going to hold my breath until I die!"

Ordaining young men to the Priesthood hasn't prevented many of them from falling away, but surely it will work with the young women.

This is just as silly as having to write a church policy about not asking ladies to remove their hats in sacrament meeting or forbidding

men to wear waders or hip boots while performing baptisms.

Sisters, having had my conscience raised in the 60s and 70s, I recommend real protest if your are serious. Ladies...if you want the Priesthood

that bad, break some stuff and hurt some people. Chain yourself to the temple gates. Lie down in front of missionaries' bicycles.

Get some real attention. Put something on the line. None of this namby-pamby wear-pants-to-church-purple-ties faux protest stuff.

Women being nothing, zero. Is that the Mormon paradigm?

I love seeing women pray in Conference, too, but that's not the thing I love most.

Are men closer to God than women because men have the priesthood? How is that, since God is no respecter of persons and position has nothing

to do with salvation?

Do we believe God thinks of women as second-class beings?

Surely there are chauvinistic Priesthood oafs out there that "Pull the Priesthood Card." I don't recall ever being taught that is how men should act.

Just how big is this push in the Church to ordain women? Somewhat big? Big? Really big? Really really really big?

Do you really think the Church is founded on change and not Jesus Christ? Enough to say I "blame Christ," whatever that means?

"Wherefore, I am in your midst, and I am the good shepherd, and the stone of Israel. He that buildeth upon this rock shall never fall."

"And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless woe, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall."

On the other hand, just as Brother Brigham and his fellow oppressors gave up on their generation regarding the Word of Wisdom and focused their

attention on the next generation, ditto the brethren at the end of polygamy when the old school patriarchs died out, and now we fold up our tents on homosexuality,

the Priesthood ban, the Lamanite issue, the offenses of the temple, and the Pearl of Great Price, perhaps the Lord is just waiting for old coots like me to die off so the Church can progress.

Maybe so. ;) And BTW, were you off and away in a cave somewhere that you did not read, see or hear about the women 'trying' to attend the PH Session this past Oct.? Each one walking up to the door and asking to be let in, which was metaphoric too. News showed it, interviewed many. This was just showing up in Sacrament wearing pants or purple? Men were there in support also. Ordain Women website and their testimony or statement with picture of them and of family? None of this is 'gang buster' enough for you? Which btw, I don't think I'd ever do, but only because I don't want the PH. I think anyone can pray and get an answer or blessing. Or anyone that takes upon them the name of Christ might have the PH in a way. But what I do appreciate is the fact that having it for the men may elevate them in a way that can be good for some men that need a push to do good, but not all men need that push. Or for them to be more holy. And if there are women that need it too, so be it.
Bernard Gui Grand Master

Bernard Gui

Posted
Posted (edited)

http://www.trust.org/item/20131216033658-e0lny

 

And here she is...the one who wore pants. And people talked behind her back!!! The horror!  :vader:

 

 

"There are members of my (congregation) that were really unhappy with my choice. They didn't make it known to me, but they complained behind my back," organizer Jerilyn Hassell Pool, of Medford, Oregon, told Reuters.

Organizers said pants day events were to be held worldwide on Sunday, but there was no official word on how many women turned up at church in pants around the world.

Mary Ellen Robertson, director of the Sunstone Symposium, an annual forum on Mormon culture and scholarship, said: "There has been a lot of movement in the Church this year. Whether those baby steps add up to a bigger step, we'll see."

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
1
Bernard Gui Grand Master

Bernard Gui

Posted
Posted (edited)

Maybe so. ;) And BTW, were you off and away in a cave somewhere that you did not read, see or hear about the women 'trying' to attend the PH Session this past Oct.? Each one walking up to the door and asking to be let in, which was metaphoric too. News showed it, interviewed many. This was just showing up in Sacrament wearing pants or purple? Men were there in support also. Ordain Women website and their testimony or statement with picture of them and of family? None of this is 'gang buster' enough for you? Which btw, I don't think I'd ever do, but only because I don't want the PH. I think anyone can pray and get an answer or blessing. Or anyone that takes upon them the name of Christ might have the PH in a way. But what I do appreciate is the fact that having it for the men may elevate them in a way that can be good for some men that need a push to do good, but not all men need that push. Or for them to be more holy. And if there are women that need it too, so be it.

 

Who needs metaphors when real protest is required? No, it's still namby-pamby. "Please let me in or I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house down!"

Wait a minute! Blow your house down? That's more like it.

 

I agree completely: The Priesthood elevates us all, because its source is God the Father. 

Edited by Bernard Gui
Scott Lloyd Grand Master

Scott Lloyd

Posted
Posted (edited)

It's wear pants to church day tomorrow, for the women. Wear purple for the men. Thank me later, those that wear purple a lot! ;)

I have a purple tie I like to wear occasionally, but I didn't wear it yesterday. I wore a red one that had blue and Christmas-tree patterned stripes. Festive in an understated sort of way.

 

No pants on women that I noticed. And, in addition to our block, I attended a stake event with performances by the ward choirs in our stake. I thought our ward choir did rather well, considering who the choir director is. (The bishopric really must have been thinking outside the box when they made that call.)

Edited by Scott Lloyd
bluebell Grand Master

bluebell

Posted
Posted

What positive experiences have I had as a man? That has nothing to do with my response to the interview. Let's try just one issue:

It bothered Kline that no men are punished for Adam's sin, but women are punished for Eve's sin. I don't see it that way. My brow is quite sweaty today. Also, I am 66 years closer to death than when I was born , and a whole bunch less innocent.

Working for your bread by the sweat of your brow, dealing with the constant thorns and thistles, being subject to sin and its consequences and death are the results of Adam's sin.

I suppose one could say they are positive, because experiencing them is why we were sent here. No one gets a pass.

So, what is the punishment for Eve's sin?

Eve's punishment was, according to the bible, that God would multiply the sorrow in conception.

While women also share in every punishment that Adam is given (they work for their daily bread, experience the thorns of mortal life, and will die eventually) men do not share in Eve's punishment.

That's what Kline was talking about.

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