“I Choose To Believe”

[Five Solas]

I never could. And in the eyes of some, my inability was evidence I was “unworthy.”

Personal history aside, the statement seems to make complete hash of what the Apostle Paul wrote in the New Testament—that faith is a “gift” of God (Romans 12:3)—not something we accomplish of our own free will & volition (or “agency,” formerly known as “free agency” in LDS circles). For a good exposition of that passage see here: http://www.monergism...er/faith01.html

What do others here think? Can you/do you will yourself to believe, as Elder Jensen bore witness in the now famous “Swedish Rescue.” And if you can/do—where does it end? Can you choose to believe any fantasy you like?

--Erik

[rockpond]

I never could. And in the eyes of some, my inability was evidence I was “unworthy.”

Personal history aside, the statement seems to make complete hash of what the Apostle Paul wrote in the New Testament—that faith is a “gift” of God (Romans 12:3)—not something we accomplish of our own free will & volition (or “agency,” formerly known as “free agency” in LDS circles). For a good exposition of that passage see here: http://www.monergism...er/faith01.html

What do others here think? Can you/do you will yourself to believe, as Elder Jensen bore witness in the now famous “Swedish Rescue.” And if you can/do—where does it end? Can you choose to believe any fantasy you like?

--Erik

I think you can choose to live as if you have a particular belief and then pray for that belief to be granted.

[HiJolly]

First, "Faith" and "Belief" are two separate things. I do think there is a relationship between the two, but they are (in Mormonspeak) essentially different words, concepts, 'signifieds'.

My faith allows me to choose to believe in the Church. God made sure, though, that I know what real & what's not real, since I sought so desperately for the 'truth'. And despite that severe (extreme?) adjustment to my testimony, yet I am allowed to believe. I think it's because that's where my heart has been, for a long time. And God's ok with that, as long as I remember what's real.

[CV75]

Can you/do you will yourself to believe, as Elder Jensen bore witness in the now famous “Swedish Rescue.” And if you can/do—where does it end? Can you choose to believe any fantasy you like?

--Erik

Choosing to believe (or not) is not a function of the object’s status as fantasy or reality. It is a function of the knowledge, skills, abilities, and interests of the possessor of the faculties making the choice, and to the extent someone is in control of their faculties, he chooses (and to the extent he is not in control of his faculties, he cannot choose). So, having control over your faculties, of course you can choose to believe any fantasy you like. But it may take time. And it may seem like you didn’t choose. Conversely, you can choose to not believe any reality you like, but this also may take time and appear as if you didn’t choose. Because they are so closely related, and often used synonymously, Elder Jensen may have meant this.

But where choosing (as in picking or selecting) and willing (as in either directing or insisting; or as in submitting or acquiescing) can also be two different processes, he could have also meant by "willing" that we believe when we submit to the Light or Christ, and we also believe when we direct and insist upon our own light; but in either case, we are also making a choice as to which light to follow, and how.

[canard78]

the statement seems to make complete hash of what the Apostle Paul wrote in the New Testament—that faith is a “gift” of God (Romans 12:3)—not something we accomplish of our own free will & volition (or “agency,” formerly known as “free agency” in LDS circles). For a good exposition of that passage see here: http://www.monergism...er/faith01.html

What do others here think? Can you/do you will yourself to believe, as Elder Jensen bore witness in the now famous “Swedish Rescue.” And if you can/do—where does it end? Can you choose to believe any fantasy you like?

I think that's a misunderstanding of the phrase. We don't make ourself believe and it's not an accomplishment.

The point is that we all have access to the same limited information and the same intangible spiritual communication with the heavens.

We consider all of the material and spiritual 'witnesses' for a faithful question and then either embrace or reject the conclusion. No-one makes us believe. As such we choose to accept the evidence in favour or not. Belief is not imposed on us ignoring our own will.

[bluebell]

I never could. And in the eyes of some, my inability was evidence I was “unworthy.”

Personal history aside, the statement seems to make complete hash of what the Apostle Paul wrote in the New Testament—that faith is a “gift” of God (Romans 12:3)—not something we accomplish of our own free will & volition (or “agency,” formerly known as “free agency” in LDS circles). For a good exposition of that passage see here: http://www.monergism...er/faith01.html

What do others here think? Can you/do you will yourself to believe, as Elder Jensen bore witness in the now famous “Swedish Rescue.” And if you can/do—where does it end? Can you choose to believe any fantasy you like?

--Erik

I think you can choose not to doubt (otherwise, why would Christ command us to 'doubt not').

And since Christ also commands us to 'believe' in different scriptures in the bible, it seems to imply that we can also choose to do that as well.

[stemelbow]

I think that's a misunderstanding of the phrase. We don't make ourself believe and it's not an accomplishment.

The point is that we all have access to the same limited information and the same intangible spiritual communication with the heavens.

We consider all of the material and spiritual 'witnesses' for a faithful question and then either embrace or reject the conclusion. No-one makes us believe. As such we choose to accept the evidence in favour or not. Belief is not imposed on us ignoring our own will.

Yep/ Good response. YOu describe nicely the exact context where "I choose to believe" is best applied. Prove what you want about Joseph Smith and you make some very good points in your condemnation, but I still choose to believe.

I don't see why anyone would see this as a problematic phrase.

[canard78]

Yep/ Good response. YOu describe nicely the exact context where "I choose to believe" is best applied. Prove what you want about Joseph Smith and you make some very good points in your condemnation, but I still choose to believe.

I don't see why anyone would see this as a problematic phrase.

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?

If someone proved to me conclusively that Joseph was a fraud or that there was no God then I would not have the need to make a choice. But history is rarely proved conclusively (and theology even less often). That good old 'dichotomy of time' as my lecturer used to call it.

There are things I choose not to believe base on the evidence and my experiences and things I do choose to believe. Mormonism is not an all or nothing thing for me. I am proudly "buffet." I know prophets have said that's not an option. But then those are the types of statements I choose to leave off my plate. Someone else can get indigestion over them.

I agree that when someone says "I will choose to believe no matter what you show me," then I agree that there's an issue.

[stemelbow]

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?

No. I"m serious. I liked what you said. I agree. And my following explanation was terrible. My mistake.

If someone proved to me conclusively that Joseph was a fraud or that there was no God then I would not have the need to make a choice. But history is rarely proved conclusively (and theology even less often). That good old 'dichotomy of time' as my lecturer used to call it.

I agree so much so I wish I had put it this way to begin with.

There are things I choose not to believe base on the evidence and my experiences and things I do choose to believe. Mormonism is not an all or nothing thing for me. I am proudly "buffet." I know prophets have said that's not an option. But then those are the types of statements I choose to leave off my plate. Someone else can get indigestion over them.

I agree again. I am somewhere near what you describe about yourself.

I agree that when someone says "I will choose to believe no matter what you show me," then I agree that there's an issue.

Yes. I meant to suggest, though, that, as you suggest, history itself can be problematic. Someone can come along and expose Joseph as all sorts of human failings. But in the end, though he took other's wives, though he misled, or thought too highly of himself, or whatever else he did, there is fundamental truths taught in mormonism that I just can't deny. In this sense it is true to me. And after considering it all, or as much as I have, I still regard Joseph as a prophet of God.

[awyatt]

...the statement seems to make complete hash of what the Apostle Paul wrote in the New Testament—that faith is a “gift” of God (Romans 12:3)—not something we accomplish of our own free will & volition...

As others have pointed out, belief and faith are not synonymous. Belief is an ingredient of faith, but faith is a whole lot more than mere belief.

Can you/do you will yourself to believe, as Elder Jensen bore witness in the now famous “Swedish Rescue.”

Not only can we do this, but we all do it every day. A common phrase (in English) is "I refuse to believe...". The very meaning of such a phrase--and its choice by the user--indicates that one can, indeed, choose to believe.

And if you can/do—where does it end? Can you choose to believe any fantasy you like?

Up to the person, isn't it? Can someone believe any old fantasy that comes along? Sure. My grandmother believed that man never really walked on the moon; it was her choice. (Ever see "Capricorn One?" It summed up her feelings nicely.) People believe foolish and vain things all the time. Again, it is their choice.

I suspect that the problem you (and many others) might have is coming to terms with competing evidence for or against a particular proposition. Let's consider a proposition that many on this board might be able to identify with: "Joseph Smith was a prophet of God." There is, of course, evidence for that proposition and against the proposition. Every person who considers the evidence can choose whether that evidence is valid or not towards the proposition. (For instance, some many consider Joseph's Civil War prophecy to be valid evidence toward the proposition; others may not.)

Fact is, for most propositions--particularly in a spiritual realm--there are just as many positive evidences as there are negative evidences. Some evidences can be seen in different perspectives, which may change whether they are positive or negative evidences. When presented with a plethora of competing evidences, one has to ultimately make a choice--do you believe the proposition or don't you believe the proposition?

It was this personal choice about any given proposition that Elder Jensen referred to. I can say "I choose to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God" and then act upon that belief. New evidences may surface at a later time that cause me to doubt my original choice and, perhaps, jettison my belief or modify it. Or, conversely, new evidences may later surface that strengthen my original choice.

Bottom line: Belief is a choice. Evidences and the weight we attach to them can affect the choice. But it is still a choice.

-Allen

-Allen

[LordUther]

I do not choose to believe, I believe because the evidence before me is such that I cannot do otherwise. In the same way I have to believe that the Earth is round, I have not been up in space, so I do not know, but the evidence before me is such that I cannot deny it. Some people do, that is their choice, but I cannot. Of course I have the option of dismissing the evidence that I have but I would only be lying to myself, so in good conscience I cannot do other than I am.

[awyatt]

I do not choose to believe, I believe because the evidence before me is such that I cannot do otherwise. In the same way I have to believe that the Earth is round...

This, of course, is easy when it comes to real-world things--as your examples illustrate. It is much harder to do when it comes to spiritual or historical matters. Two examples:

* Proposition: "God exists." The number of competing evidences precludes one, based just on those evidences, from believing because the evidence is overwhelmingly compelling. (Joseph apparently agreed with this when it came to spiritual matters with many, many competing claims and evidences. See JSH 1:8.)

* Proposition: "Joseph had sex with Fanny Alger." There is competing evidence, but none of it first hand. We draw conclusions based upon actions of contemporaries, but those conclusions could reflect our own presuppositions. Unless we see the acts or have confessions of those involved, how can we "judge righteously" in the matter?

In propositions such as these (and thousands of others) there may never be such overwhelmingly compelling evidence that it precludes non-belief. In such instances, belief is an individual choice based upon individual analysis of the evidence for or against the proposition.

Again, the bottom line is that it is still a choice.

-Allen

[Johnnie Cake]

Interesting proposition...as if belief is a choice formed in a vacuum...and if it was that simple...then I too would choose to believe in spite of the evidence against belief...but it isn't as simple as choosing to believe or not...other matters come into play.

Thomas Edison got it right when he said. “For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."

For me…it is a choice built on evidence or the lack of evidence to support the truth claim. To choose belief when the evidence doesn’t support belief is just dishonest and a damnable false hope.

(I recognize that others who have viewed the same difficulties have formed other conclusions)

Edited July 30, 2013 by Johnnie Cake

[LordUther]

This, of course, is easy when it comes to real-world things--as your examples illustrate. It is much harder to do when it comes to spiritual or historical matters. Two examples:

* Proposition: "God exists." The number of competing evidences precludes one, based just on those evidences, from believing because the evidence is overwhelmingly compelling. (Joseph apparently agreed with this when it came to spiritual matters with many, many competing claims and evidences. See JSH 1:8.)

* Proposition: "Joseph had sex with Fanny Alger." There is competing evidence, but none of it first hand. We draw conclusions based upon actions of contemporaries, but those conclusions could reflect our own presuppositions. Unless we see the acts or have confessions of those involved, how can we "judge righteously" in the matter?

In propositions such as these (and thousands of others) there may never be such overwhelmingly compelling evidence that it precludes non-belief. In such instances, belief is an individual choice based upon individual analysis of the evidence for or against the proposition.

Again, the bottom line is that it is still a choice.

-Allen

Because in spiritual matters I trust not in the evidence of man. I have shared my experience of returning to church on here and can be found here...

http://www.mormondia...ly-do-you-mean/

I gained my testimony of the church whilst a teenager, prayed about the BoM and got my answer, received my testimony. As I grew up I had issues with the church & eventually left, but at no time could I have enmity with the church. Too many times on my mission did I run into less-active members who were angry at the church because they had failed to live church principles, or because one person had offended them, or in someway wanted the church to change to fit their lives. I promised myself this wouldn't happen to me, we weren't a match - it was no-ones fault. I pushed my testimony down inside me & convinced myself that those "good feelings" meant nothing. A few weeks ago I ran into the missionaries in town & told them they were welcome to come over. We discussed many thing which culminated in me basically saying "I'm on the verge of hating God, if He continues down the path He's on I will never forgive Him...it will be over between us, He would have gone too far!!" One of the Elders looked at me with tears rolling down his cheek & said " I cannot begin to imagine what you have gone through or how I would react if I had, but I KNOW Heavenly Father loves you, I know Joseph Smith was called to restore the gospel..." He just bore his simple sweet testimony and I cannot describe the fire that burned within my chest, it was so intense I almost couldn't bear it. It burned away all my hardness and left me raw. It left me so that I could no longer deny what I knew, that the church is true & I needed to make my way back home. It's going to require great change & sacrifice on my part, but I cannot deny what the Spirit has testified to me so strongly. This is what it means to me to know that the church is true.

That night I had no intention of returning to church, the only reason I had invited the missionaries over was to feed them. Having served a mission myself I know how much they rely on DA's and was always willing to give them somewhere to go that if it was raining they could seek shelter. I was happy with my life & wasn't seeking anything. I had had bad news a few days before ( had just found out my dad had prostate cancer) and so was emotional, but had zero intention of returning to church, in fact I would go as far to say that before that night I was opposed to returning to church. As the Elder bore his testimony the spiritual witness I received was so intense that it burned away & tore me down. It left me shaking and unable to deny the truth, that God lives, that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God & that I needed to make my way back. That night I went to bed still fighting it but knew within my heart I couldn't deny it. The experience was so intense that both I & the Elders are convinced that only a divine manifestation could've made it more than what it was. Others may try to rationalise my experience, but the miracles I have seen in my life since that day just a few short weeks ago, the changes that have been made that I could not have done on my own, confirm to me the truth of what happened. My experience has very much been a road to Damascus experience.

Regards the so called "problems" with church history, well to be honest I see no problems. I see people struggling to understand events that we have no where near enough evidence to come to any sort of conclusion about. I trust God knew what he was doing, and know that I don't know enough of what went on during that time to condemn anyone. I believe Joseph when he says that charity will be a cloak to cover most sins & that if I do not accuse him, he will not accuse me, and if we have no accuser we will enter into Heaven. I will struggle to work out my salvation & leave others to struggle with their own.

Edited July 30, 2013 by LordUther

[Danzo]

Sometimes you don't have a perfect knowledge. You can either have hope (an essential component of Faith) or Doubt. I believe it is a choice.

There are many time in my life where I have had to choose to believe. Confirmation of that choice usually follows.

[Questing Beast]

I never could. And in the eyes of some, my inability was evidence I was “unworthy.”

Personal history aside, the statement seems to make complete hash of what the Apostle Paul wrote in the New Testament—that faith is a “gift” of God (Romans 12:3)—not something we accomplish of our own free will & volition (or “agency,” formerly known as “free agency” in LDS circles). For a good exposition of that passage see here: http://www.monergism...er/faith01.html

What do others here think? Can you/do you will yourself to believe, as Elder Jensen bore witness in the now famous “Swedish Rescue.” And if you can/do—where does it end? Can you choose to believe any fantasy you like?

--Erik

No. Belief is like emotion: once you feel it, the choice i.e. "you choose how you feel" is already lost. We don't choose our emotions, we experience them. The same is with belief. You can discipline yourself to live by a set of beliefs, a dogma, but never have it penetrate your inner being and become reality. Trying to believe is just that, trying, not believing....

[Questing Beast]

... there is fundamental truths taught in mormonism that I just can't deny. In this sense it is true to me. And after considering it all, or as much as I have, I still regard Joseph as a prophet of God.

I accept all those shared truths in religion as well. It doesn't require "prophets" to conceive of them or teach them. I practice the lifestyle of a devout Mormon. And I would be just as likely to be defined as a good Presbyterian or RC or Muslim, should the necessity arise. I, along with JS, have never been guilty of any great sins, because to commit such have always been against my nature....

[Questing Beast]

...

Bottom line: Belief is a choice. Evidences and the weight we attach to them can affect the choice. But it is still a choice.

-Allen

Trying to believe is a choice, the actual state of belief is not....

[Questing Beast]

... That night I went to bed still fighting it but knew within my heart I couldn't deny it. The experience was so intense that both I & the Elders are convinced that only a divine manifestation could've made it more than what it was. Others may try to rationalise my experience, but the miracles I have seen in my life since that day just a few short weeks ago, the changes that have been made that I could not have done on my own, confirm to me the truth of what happened. My experience has very much been a road to Damascus experience.

Regards the so called "problems" with church history, well to be honest I see no problems. I see people struggling to understand events that we have no where near enough evidence to come to any sort of conclusion about. I trust God knew what he was doing, and know that I don't know enough of what went on during that time to condemn anyone. I believe Joseph when he says that charity will be a cloak to cover most sins & that if I do not accuse him, he will not accuse me, and if we have no accuser we will enter into Heaven. I will struggle to work out my salvation & leave others to struggle with their own.

I don't have a problem with any of your "reconversion" story. That's how "God" works, taking us where we are most willing to go right now. You weren't thinking about it consciously, but something was lacking and the Church will best fill it for now. "God" works all in all.

I've never accepted that JS was just making excuses to indulge himself. He always believed in his revelations and his work. That's how religions get started. Muhammad was sincere too....

[Kenngo1969]

The reason I think faith and doubt are choices is because there is only one thing I can give to God that He didn't give me in the first place: My Will. Everything else, He gave to me to begin with: my health, my family, my home, my freedom (political, legal, spiritual).

[pmccombs1]

Can you choose to believe any fantasy you like?

Why not? The world of purpose, meaning, and value is a fantasy world, and I defy anyone to prove otherwise.

Choose to believe responsibly, though.

[mfbukowski]

Can you choose to believe any fantasy you like?

One man's fantasy is another man's truth.

Well I know you will CHOOSE not listen to this, nor BELIEVE it, but perhaps someone else will be helped by it.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/61376-43-minutes-which-could-change-your-life-and-this-forum-science-religion/

I would only suggest that you not criticize it unless you have listened to it and understand it, because otherwise the discussion will be a waste of time.

[mfbukowski]

Why not? The world of purpose, meaning, and value is a fantasy world, and I defy anyone to prove otherwise.

Choose to believe responsibly, though.

Blessed Bovine! - it's my evil twin again!

[mfbukowski]

No. Belief is like emotion: once you feel it, the choice i.e. "you choose how you feel" is already lost. We don't choose our emotions, we experience them. The same is with belief. You can discipline yourself to live by a set of beliefs, a dogma, but never have it penetrate your inner being and become reality. Trying to believe is just that, trying, not believing....

"Religious belief is like falling in love" -Rorty

[mfbukowski]

Mark 9

23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.