“I Choose To Believe”

[coolrok7]

Apostasy yes, "total" "complete" as taught in Mormonism, No!:

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, . . .In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. (1 Timothy 4:1 2, 6)

Edited August 11, 2013 by coolrok7

[mfbukowski]

Apostasy yes, "total" "complete" as taught in Mormonism, No!

Sez you.

Somehow I think we have been over this before, I have this strange sense of deja vu

[coolrok7]

"Some" is the term used by the Holy Spirit that I quoted from Paul. It does not say, "complete" "total".

[volgadon]

"Some" is the term used by the Holy Spirit that I quoted from Paul. It does not say, "complete" "total".

If you want tolook at it that way, the Holy Spirit technically never said "some," either.

[coolrok7]

What did the Holy Spirit "technically" say then as the KJV translation uses the term some representing the Greek term being translated?

Edited August 11, 2013 by coolrok7

[halconero]

And to halconero, Vance, Mola, et al.--

Just so you know, what I wrote (concerning Lucifer’s lie in the Garden) isn’t one dude’s opinion, a Mars Hill opinion, or even just a Protestant opinion. It’s a Christian perspective based on what your Bible actually says. From The Catechism of the Catholic Church (#392)—

Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies.”

This isn’t the stuff of controversy among Christians. And the advice I gave you before was sound, bluebell. If someone makes you that offer—don’t rationalize, run!

--Erik

Honestly, I didn't really say much in my post other than pose the question: what does God mean when He says this?

Your answer: Christianity disagrees with God.

[mfbukowski]

"Some" is the term used by the Holy Spirit that I quoted from Paul. It does not say, "complete" "total".

As always it is subject to interpretation.

"Some" did fall away at first, then all the others as well. "Some" could have been the leadership. "Some" could have been all Paul knew about. "Some" could have been in Paul's time and others hundreds of years later.

Maybe "some" fell away from following demons etc and others for other reasons.

As always there have to be a hundred ways of interpreting any scripture

And then you have the whole question of whether or not scripture is inerrant in the first place, and if the Holy Spirit took out a pen and wrote it, or actually used an imperfect man like Paul to write it.

Then you have the question of whether or not Paul was actually the man who wrote it. Then you have the question of whether or not Paul was a genuine apostle because he opposed Peter.

That's just a start. This could all be fables and worth as much as some Buddhist writings (for better or worse- not to put down Buddhism)

Can you see how this line of thinking doesn't get you anywhere? Of course you can't.

Either you have a testimony or not- it's that simple.

[mfbukowski]

Honestly, I didn't really say much in my post other than pose the question: what does God mean when He says this?

Your answer: Christianity disagrees with God.

Whoosh! Nailed it cold!

They just cannot see the circularity in the argument that because it is old, it is correct. Old mistakes are just as wrong as new ones.

Edited August 12, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Vance]

Apostasy yes, "total" "complete" as taught in Mormonism, No!:

Act 20:28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

What part of "not sparing the flock" is so difficult to understand? We all know (or at least should know) that "the flock" refers to "the church" and Jesus is the Shepherd. So, if "the church" (both the visible and invisible church) is not spared, how is that NOT a total apostasy?

Edited August 12, 2013 by Vance

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Honestly, I didn't really say much in my post other than pose the question: what does God mean when He says this?

Your answer: Christianity disagrees with God.

No reason to comment further.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Act 20:28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

What part of "not sparing the flock" is so difficult to understand? We all know (or at least should know) that "the flock" refers to "the church" and Jesus is the Shepherd. So, if "the church" (both the visible and invisible church) is not spared, how is that NOT a total apostasy?

Vance, he didnt mean it universally.

See how easy that was.

[Vance]

Vance, he didnt mean it universally.

See how easy that was.

Oh, yeah, you are right. He meant "the flock" not "the universal flock". And we all know what a difference that is. /sarc

[coolrok7]

He was addressing those at Ephesus. You're reading into what is not there. Again, not "total" "complete" but "some" as Paul said, the Holy Spirit said.

Edited August 13, 2013 by coolrok7

[Vance]

Apostasy yes, "total" "complete" as taught in Mormonism, No!:

You might have a point, EXCEPT for the fact that those are not the only aspects of apostasy.

[Vance]

He was addressing those at Ephesus. You're reading into what is not there. Again, not "total" "complete" but "some" as Paul said, the Holy Spirit said.

Yup. And Luke recorded in Acts just for the Ephesians. Your problem is he didn't limit it to just the Ephesians (so here it is you that is attempting to add something that isn't there), but he used the phrase "the flock" which clearly indicates universality.

Plus you have this,

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him (the beast) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

So, "overcome them" doesn't mean overcome them? And "all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" doesn't mean what it says either. Right?

[Ahab]

I never could. [choose to believe]

n

Oh yes you could. You can believe anything you want to believe. Including believing you can't believe what you want to believe.

Can you/do you will yourself to believe, as Elder Jensen bore witness in the now famous “Swedish Rescue.”

Sure. I can believe anything, whatever I want to believe.

And if you can/do—where does it end? Can you choose to believe any fantasy you like?

Yep. I can believe any fantasy I like or want to believe, too. Anything. You name it. I can believe whatever you can think of.

Mainly I just try to make sure that none of my beliefs conflict with any of my other beliefs, unless I'm just playing make believe and really don't care whether or not my beliefs conflict. Like when I watch Star Wars movies, for example. I know it's not real, or true, but I sometimes choose to believe it is true, anyway, just to get a little more enjoyment out of the story.

And when I want to know what is true, or real, I ask God to help me with that and then I believe whatever he tells me is true.

[canard78]

Apostasy yes, "total" "complete" as taught in Mormonism, No!:

We don't teach a total apostasy. We teach a loss of priesthood authority and a muddling of some doctrinal points.

“The line of priesthood authority was broken. But mankind was not left in total darkness or completely without revelation or inspiration. The idea that with the Crucifixion of Christ the heavens were closed and that they opened in the First Vision is not true. The Light of Christ would be everywhere present to attend the children of God; the Holy Ghost would visit seeking souls. The prayers of the righteous would not go unanswered.” Elder Boyd K. Packer

Boyd K. Packer, “The Light of Christ,” Ensign, Apr. 2005, 11

29 “Informed Latter-day Saints do not argue that historic Christianity lost all truth or became completely corrupt. The orthodox churches may have lost the ‘fullness’ of the gospel, but they did not lose all of it nor even most of it. Many Evangelicals caricature or overstate the actual LDS view, which is that the orthodox churches are incomplete rather than corrupt. It is their postbiblical creeds that are identified in Joseph Smith’s first vision as an ‘abomination,’ but certainly not their individual members or their members’ biblical beliefs.”

Stephen E. Robinson

Craig L. Blomberg and Stephen E. Robinson, How Wide the Divide? A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1997)

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/authority-in-the-church

8 For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true.

Alma the Younger

Alma 29

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/29?lang=eng