“I Choose To Believe”

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I never could. And in the eyes of some, my inability was evidence I was “unworthy.”

Personal history aside, the statement seems to make complete hash of what the Apostle Paul wrote in the New Testament—that faith is a “gift” of God (Romans 12:3)—not something we accomplish of our own free will & volition (or “agency,” formerly known as “free agency” in LDS circles). For a good exposition of that passage see here: http://www.monergism...er/faith01.html

What do others here think? Can you/do you will yourself to believe, as Elder Jensen bore witness in the now famous “Swedish Rescue.” And if you can/do—where does it end? Can you choose to believe any fantasy you like?

--Erik

I think too often we quote a single and then close the door on the topic...I would suggest reading Hebrews 11, entirely. There is a scripture that says, "God is Love"...we all know he is so much more. In Hebrews they obtained faith and greater faith by doing, not just accepting it.

[Five Solas]

...there is only one thing I can give to God that He didn't give me in the first place: My Will.

You are a creature and God is your Creator, Kenngo1969, same as me. There's nothing to us that God didn't bestow--even that which you idolize (in bold). See John 1:3, Colossians 1:16. There's no exception clause for your mighty will. Or for mine...

;0)

--Erik

[stemelbow]

Interesting proposition...as if belief is a choice formed in a vacuum...and if it was that simple...then I too would choose to believe in spite of the evidence against belief...but it isn't as simple as choosing to believe or not...other matters come into play.

Thomas Edison got it right when he said. “For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction - faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."

For me…it is a choice built on evidence or the lack of evidence to support the truth claim. To choose belief when the evidence doesn’t support belief is just dishonest and a damnable false hope.

(I recognize that others who have viewed the same difficulties have formed other conclusions)

I think the difference between us is do you see faith as a credible means to evidence or not. I do. And that's why I choose to believe. If faith is evidence of things hoped for and substance of things not seen, then it is included in all the other pieces of evidence for some of us, at least. I realize though, faith is not so substantive to some, perhaps you. We're different. What can I say?

[pogi]

You are a creature and God is your Creator, Kenngo1969, same as me. There's nothing to us that God didn't bestow--even that which you idolize (in bold). See John 1:3, Colossians 1:16. There's no exception clause for your mighty will. Or for mine...

;0)

--Erik

Solas, the LDS understand the creation to be an organization of existing "unorgonized matter" and intelligence rather than a magic trick of creating something out of thin air. God spoke and waited for the elements to obey (meaning that "will" existed before the creation) according to LDS scripture.

[canard78]

No. I"m serious. I liked what you said. I agree. And my following explanation was terrible. My mistake.

Ah, sorry. I understand now. Didn't mean to cast doubt on your intentions.

I agree so much so I wish I had put it this way to begin with.

I agree again. I am somewhere near what you describe about yourself.

Yes. I meant to suggest, though, that, as you suggest, history itself can be problematic. Someone can come along and expose Joseph as all sorts of human failings. But in the end, though he took other's wives, though he misled, or thought too highly of himself, or whatever else he did, there is fundamental truths taught in mormonism that I just can't deny. In this sense it is true to me. And after considering it all, or as much as I have, I still regard Joseph as a prophet of God.

I think you put it very well. Sometimes I see people in the church want to hold him up as a model of behaviour. I instead prefer to embrace the written word he left on which to model my behaviour.

Alma 32 is a piece of theologic brilliance. I rely on it heavily. Even more, these days, than Moroni 10:4-5.

[bluebell]

You are a creature and God is your Creator, Kenngo1969, same as me. There's nothing to us that God didn't bestow--even that which you idolize (in bold). See John 1:3, Colossians 1:16. There's no exception clause for your mighty will. Or for mine...

;0)

--Erik

I have no idea what Kennego said in his post that could reasonably be interpreted as him idolizing his will, but beyond that comment, I think you might have misunderstood what Ken was saying.

I think (and if i'm wrong then please correct me Ken), that what Kennago was trying to say was that our obedience to God-our choice to follow Him through Christ-is the only thing which we can give to God which was not given to us by Him.

LDS doctrine defines 'agency' as "the ability and privilege God gives people to choose and to act for themselves."

The ability to choose comes from God, but the choices we make are ours alone and it is the good choice that is ours to give our Father in Heaven.

[mfbukowski]

Alma 32 is a piece of theologic brilliance.

In only a small part of that chapter, it summarizes all of what William James, John Dewey, Richard Rorty and many other philosophers have taken perhaps a hundred books to say.

Joseph Smith did not write that alone. No one on earth was thinking about truth in that way at that time. Based on those few verses alone, if that is all that I had of the church- if that is all there WAS, I would be a member of this church.

I would not and don't care a bit about all the alleged "problems" with its foundation stories or anything else. Those words were inspired by God- no possible doubt in my mind. Nothing else could possibly matter.

And since I had my own Moroni 10:4-5 experience, that is icing on the cake.

[mfbukowski]

I have no idea what Kennego said in his post that could reasonably be interpreted as him idolizing his will, but beyond that comment, I think you might have misunderstood what Ken was saying.

He is looking through the false lens of the creator/creature distinction. He does not understand that God is our Father- he sees him as a transcendent "substance" which somehow combines 3 persons into one Trinity.

We see ourselves as embryonic forms of what God now is - as literally the father of our spirits.

He sees that as a sinful, prideful, willful assertion of our fallen nature, as a false aspiration to be like God, in the same way that Satan wanted to be like God

So it's not really a question of what K actually said- he is attacking the assumptions behind what he said.

In other words, the usual stuff- objection number 475 re-iterated for the nine thousandth time.

Edited July 31, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Questing Beast]

Solas, the LDS understand the creation to be an organization of existing "unorgonized matter" and intelligence rather than a magic trick of creating something out of thin air. God spoke and waited for the elements to obey (meaning that "will" existed before the creation) according to LDS scripture.

I think "Solas" understands that. The point s/he is making is that nothing can exist as transcendent from "God". Everything that exists originates from "God". There is nothing "magical" or out of nothing about it, since "God" is all things. If creation was out of nothing, then we and the whole world of humans are nothing. It becomes nonsensical to even discuss existence using words like "magical" and "nothing".

So yes, our "will" or free will or agency are all gifts from "God". But we also are sovereign souls, no longer part of "God's Will", since we are "cut loose" as it were to go our own way. In that sense it is the only gift we can return to "God", to choose to obey the principles of Joy....

[pogi]

I think "Solas" understands that. The point s/he is making is that nothing can exist as transcendent from "God". Everything that exists originates from "God". There is nothing "magical" or out of nothing about it, since "God" is all things. If creation was out of nothing, then we and the whole world of humans are nothing. It becomes nonsensical to even discuss existence using words like "magical" and "nothing".

So yes, our "will" or free will or agency are all gifts from "God". But we also are sovereign souls, no longer part of "God's Will", since we are "cut loose" as it were to go our own way. In that sense it is the only gift we can return to "God", to choose to obey the principles of Joy....

I hear what you are saying, but our intelligence actually does exist independent of God, it has always existed and therefore does not originate from God. It is my understanding that our agency has always existed as part of that intelligence, as we had agency in the pre-earth life. To me, agency is a gift in the sense that God allowed us to use it in mortality, it is clear that it could have been muted. It is not something that originated from God but has always been apart of our intelligence. I do not believe that our intelligences were forced to be spirit children of God, but that we chose to be his children when he sought after us. This is how I have always seen it, but I could be wrong.

[Calm]

There's nothing to us that God didn't bestow

So the evil in our natures is given to us by God then....

[bluebell]

He is looking through the false lens of the creator/creature distinction. He does not understand that God is our Father- he sees him as a transcendent "substance" which somehow combines 3 persons into one Trinity.

We see ourselves as embryonic forms of what God now is - as literally the father of our spirits.

He sees that as a sinful, prideful, willful assertion of our fallen nature, as a false aspiration to be like God, in the same way that Satan wanted to be like God

So it's not really a question of what K actually said- he is attacking the assumptions behind what he said.

In other words, the usual stuff- objection number 475 re-iterated for the nine thousandth time.

I don't understand what is so evil and prideful about believing that we are the offspring of God with the potential to inherit all that He has.

First, it says those things right in the bible.

Second, does anyone believe that it's evil and prideful for a son to believe he can grow up to become like his father? Does anyone believe it takes ANYTHING away from his father or disrespects him in ANY WAY for a son to believe that? I don't believe any reasonable person would answer yes to those questions, but suddenly when you are talking about God the Father and not a mortal father it becomes an awful belief rooted in our evil natures.

[Calm]

I don't understand what is so evil and prideful about believing that we are the offspring of God with the potential to inherit all that He has.

Many see it as pulling God down to the level of mortal man rather than raising men up (as stated in the scriptures) to meet God and become one with him.

There is in much of traditional Christian teachings a fundamental gap between God and Man that will never be bridged, even when received into heaven and becoming one as described in the scriptures. They see, if I understand it correctly, as becoming one with God only in some ways and not others. We have some limitations as well, we don't become physically one and we don't lose our personality or individuality, but we do believe that we will be able to fully comprehend all that God is at sometime in the future, while (again if I understand it correctly) mankind will learn much about God, because the gap of Creator and Creature, there will always be something about God's divine nature that is beyond the ability of Man to relate to or fully comprehend.

Second, does anyone believe that it's evil and prideful for a son to believe he can grow up to become like his father?

This is condemned because it is interpreted as us thinking ourselves will become equal to God. Edited July 31, 2013 by calmoriah

[bluebell]

Many see it as pulling God down to the level of mortal man rather than raising men up (as stated in the scriptures) to meet God and become one with him.

There is in much of traditional Christian teachings a fundamental gap between God and Man that will never be bridged, even when received into heaven and becoming one as described in the scriptures. They see, if I understand it correctly, as becoming one with God only in some ways and not others. We have some limitations as well, we don't become physically one and we don't lose our personality or individuality, but we do believe that we will be able to fully comprehend all that God is at sometime in the future, while (again if I understand it correctly) mankind will learn much about God, because the gap of Creator and Creature, there will always be something about God's divine nature that is beyond the ability of Man to relate to or fully comprehend.

So, they believe they will become joint heirs with Christ, except, not really? They'll gain all the Father has, but not everything that He actually has?

I know you're not the one to ask these questions of Cal, I just really don't get this belief system.

This is condemned because it is interpreted as us thinking ourselves will become equal to God.

Even Christ didn't believe Himself to be equal to God. It's certainly not the church's teachings that such will be the case. I understand though that this line of reasoning comes from their lack of actual knowledge and understanding of our doctrines on the subject.

It's easy to misunderstand when only half of a doctrine is understood.

[Calm]

They'll gain all the Father has, but not everything that He actually has?

I would say it is more not everything He actually is, rather than has. Edited July 31, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Even Christ didn't believe Himself to be equal to God.

Depends on what is meant by this:

Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/philip/2.6?lang=eng#5

[mfbukowski]

I don't understand what is so evil and prideful about believing that we are the offspring of God with the potential to inherit all that He has.

First, it says those things right in the bible. .

Shhhhh.. They might notice and then we will have to build a whole bunch of new chapels. That might reduce our salaries, paying for all those new buildings!

[mfbukowski]

I know you're not the one to ask these questions of Cal, I just really don't get this belief system.

Good for you!

[bluebell]

Depends on what is meant by this:

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/philip/2.6?lang=eng#5

I was thinking of John 14:28-

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

And I think that the fact that it was always the Father who was giving commandments to Jesus and never the other way around that seems to imply to me that the Father is greater than Christ. (John 14:31 is a good example of that line of reasoning).

[Questing Beast]

"All that the Father hath" can only mean all that relates to the world of humans. When "God" relates to us it is as a human being. That should not imply to our imaginations that we are "seeing" the "Father" in total. The Son, the Word, made the world of humans. In that sense he is equal to the Father. But as Existence of the world of humans originates from a greater Source or Cause than the Son, Christ is not equal to the Father and never was and never will be. In this world of humans, the human being Christ is as we are, and inherits "all that the Father hath", and becomes a "joint heir with the Father", etc., and the same destiny awaits every human being....

[savedbygrace]

Faith, catholics believe, is a gift from God. Jesus though almost commanded us to have faith and believe in him, so could it be that taking the first step and believing prompts God to give faith as a response?

[Five Solas]

I don't understand what is so evil and prideful about believing that we are the offspring of God with the potential to inherit all that He has.

First, it says those things right in the bible.

Good question. And I think you're half right. But do a word search in your New Testament on adopt/adoption to complete your picture. LDS in my experience overlook/disregard this critical aspect of the Christian Faith--that we are adopted as God's sons (and daughters). "For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith (Galatians 3:26 ESV)." Note how it doesn't say sons through birth or existence--but through faith. That's hugely important, no?

Regarding what's prideful/sinful about wanting to be like God--recall Lucifer's lie to Eve in the Garden--"you will be like God" (Genesis 3:4 ESV). If someone makes you that offer (and thereby makes full appeal to your pride): Find the nearest exit and run!

--Erik

[LordUther]

Regarding what's prideful/sinful about wanting to be like God--recall Lucifer's lie to Eve in the Garden--"you will be like God" (Genesis 3:4 ESV). If someone makes you that offer (and thereby makes full appeal to your pride): Find the nearest exit and run!

--Erik

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good & evil

Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold the man has become as one of us to know good and evil.

When Satan made that offer he was talking about how the fruit of the tree would open their eyes & they would lose their innocence, not that it would exalt them (though by doing so it would open the way to exaltation for them and showing that Satan didn't know all of God's plan otherwise if he was as smart as he thought he was he would've just left Adam & Eve alone in the garden), and from God's response we can tell Satan wasn't lying when he told Eve that.

[Vance]

You are a creature and God is your Creator, Kenngo1969, same as me. There's nothing to us that God didn't bestow--even that which you idolize (in bold). See John 1:3, Colossians 1:16. There's no exception clause for your mighty will. Or for mine...

;0)

--Erik

Well, at least you are willing to admit one of the serious problems of creatio ex nihilo. IF our will is the will that God gave to us, THEN it is inseparable from what He made it, THEREFORE, He is responsible for any desire we have to sin, THUS making God responsible for all evil.

Thank you for at least admitting the obvious.

[Vance]

Good question. And I think you're half right. But do a word search in your New Testament on adopt/adoption to complete your picture. LDS in my experience overlook/disregard this critical aspect of the Christian Faith--that we are adopted as God's sons (and daughters). "For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith (Galatians 3:26 ESV)." Note how it doesn't say sons through birth or existence--but through faith. That's hugely important, no?

--Erik

Of course, Let's ignore the verses that speak of a direct relationship.

Ps. 82:6 Ye are gods . . . children of the most High.

Hosea 1:10 Ye are the sons of the living God.

Mal. 2:10 Have we not all one father.

Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father.

Matt. 6:9 Our Father which art in heaven.

Acts 17:29 we are the offspring of God.

Rom. 8:16 Spirit itself beareth witness . . . we are the children of God.

Eph. 4:6 One God and Father of all.

Heb. 12:9 be in subjection unto the Father of spirits.