“I Choose To Believe”

[Hamba Tuhan]

But if they are, they're a positive affirmation of something I am certain through repeated testing and experience actually work.

Precisely! For me the whole point of 'spiritual experiences' is that they serve as specific and enticing invitations to put into practice the content of the message.

[EllenMaksoud]

I never could. And in the eyes of some, my inability was evidence I was “unworthy.”

Personal history aside, the statement seems to make complete hash of what the Apostle Paul wrote in the New Testament—that faith is a “gift” of God (Romans 12:3)—not something we accomplish of our own free will & volition (or “agency,” formerly known as “free agency” in LDS circles). For a good exposition of that passage see here: http://www.monergism...er/faith01.html

What do others here think? Can you/do you will yourself to believe, as Elder Jensen bore witness in the now famous “Swedish Rescue.” And if you can/do—where does it end? Can you choose to believe any fantasy you like?

--Erik

Actually, faith is a gift from God. In order to receive it, we have to stop being our own God. I know this from personal experience.

I distinctly remember returning broken and broken hearted from Kenya, having gone there to "Do God's Work". Then came the lost years; the 911 attack, the craziness in government, the catastrophic failures in my own life, the losses, and then someone stupidly compared me to Job. It was laying in the dark, pillow wet with tears, and finally yelling at God, and apologising that I could never be anything like Job.

I pray that others do not have to find that bottom.

Edited August 5, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[mfbukowski]

Actually, faith is a gift from God. In order to receive it, we have to stop being our own God. I know this from personal experience.

We are here to acknowledge and reverence the Other who knows us better than we know ourselves.

[savedbygrace]

Can't speak for other LDS, but I know for a fact that I've quoted from all scripture: Bible, BoM, DC, and PoGP when discussing religious topics here. I usually quote from the Bible when topic or concerns are about the bible. And I've other LDS do likewise. So your statement still comes off a little rash in assessment

With luv,

BD

Thanks BD, I was referring to this thread in particular.

[Storm Rider]

Actually I am not the OP, so prior to now you have not spoken to me at all, sorry but I don't understand the last sentence. From what I have seen here the bible quoting has been LDS to LDS which is why i asked the question.

It is a good question. I think you misunderstand the LDS position on the New Testament. The 8th Article of Faith states, "8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." Nothing in this statement should lead one to believe that one is better than the other or that LDS believe in one more than the other; they are both the word of God. Textual critics have been very effective in demonstrating that the Bible has had some specific additions, such as the Comma Johanneum, for example, among a host of other translation problems. This in no way indicates the Bible should be ignored or considered less than the word of God, as supported by the 8th article of faith, but we believe we need to be sure that what is being said has been translated properly. In addition, from anecdotal evidence only, I would say most LDS know the Bible even better than they know the Book of Mormon. When we discuss the gospel with other people we often will use the Bible to emphasize that the teachings of the Church are found in the scriptures that they themselves acknowledge as true. Make sense?

[BlueDreams]

Thanks BD, I was referring to this thread in particular.

This thread entails largely people answering the OP or the author of the OP, who does not see the BoM as scripture. If LDS scripture were used it would be pretty easy to assume that a claim that the teaching is not biblical may ensue. Despite that, there are still a number of BoM scripture used in this thread, including one in direct response to you just a couple posts above your initial remark about BoM scripture not being used. It's still rash in assessment. Plus, with this addendum, it's also contradictory. You stated quite clearly that you've noticed "elsewhere on these boards" that LDS quote the bible over the BoM...which is simply unfounded beyond your own subjective and apparently partial reading of the board.

Your argument carries little evidence, jumps to grand conclusions based on this, and begs the question of how LDS view both set of scripture.

With luv,

BD

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Why no quotes from the BoM, is the most correct book and cornerstone of your religion obsolete? I've noticed elsesewhere on these boards how the corrupt and unreliable Bible isquoted over and above the BoM

I have never once heard on this board from believing LDS how the bible is unreliable. That appears to be a strawman. And I did not know that 5 solas was LDS. So the LDS are quoteing bible verses to non LDS. Why is that a problem? Edited August 5, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Regarding what's prideful/sinful about wanting to be like God--recall Lucifer's lie to Eve in the Garden--"you will be like God" (Genesis 3:4 ESV). If someone makes you that offer (and thereby makes full appeal to your pride): Find the nearest exit and run!

--Erik

Did you seriously just quote this that the lie was "you will be like God". There is no way you can seriously deduce this was the lie from those verses of scripture. And to your second point I guess we had better run from Jesus when he spoke to John the Revelator that we should sit on his throne as he has sat down on God's throne. Edited August 5, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Five Solas]

Did you seriously just quote this that the lie was "you will be like God". There is no way you can seriously deduce this was the lie from those verses of scripture. And to your second point I guess we had better run from Jesus when he spoke to John the Revelator that we should sit on his throne as he has sat down on God's throne.

Did you just use "seriously" twice in two consecutive sentences? Seriously?

;0)

Disagree, but before you defend Lucifer's speech in the garden, consider--

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

--John 8:44 (ESV)

Again, you can disagree--but I'd let it go, in your position

[halconero]

Did you just use "seriously" twice in two consecutive sentences? Seriously?

;0)

Disagree, but before you defend Lucifer's speech in the garden, consider--

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

--John 8:44 (ESV)

Again, you can disagree--but I'd let it go, in your position

Didn't God say that "man is now become like one of us" just a few verses later?

[Vance]

BTW

This is an old, tired and well refuted anti-Mormon chesnut.

And it is OBVIOUSLY based upon a falsehood (or more acurately a LIE)!

So, either you thought up this lie yourself,

OR

You got it from a unreliable (a nice way of saying UNTRUTHFUL) source.

Pray tell, where did you get it?

Did you just use "seriously" twice in two consecutive sentences? Seriously?

;0)

Disagree, but before you defend Lucifer's speech in the garden, consider--

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

--John 8:44 (ESV)

Again, you can disagree--but I'd let it go, in your position

And five solas doubles down on being ridiculous.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Vance

[bluebell]

Didn't God say that "man is now become like one of us" just a few verses later?

Yep, verse 22, chapter 3 of Genesis:

22 ¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil

I don't think Mola is the one in the position that needs to let it go.

[LordUther]

Didn't God say that "man is now become like one of us" just a few verses later?

He did and we pointed this out to Five Solas, and he just skipped right over them...

What Five Solas seems to forget is that the most effective lies are those mingled with truth. If someone lies all the time you learn to ignore them but if take truth & mingle it with lies it becomes so much easier to deceive.

[bluebell]

Did you just use "seriously" twice in two consecutive sentences? Seriously?

;0)

Disagree, but before you defend Lucifer's speech in the garden, consider--

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

--John 8:44 (ESV)

Again, you can disagree--but I'd let it go, in your position

Mola's not defending Lucifer (I'm not even sure how any adult with normal reasoning skills could conclude that from what he said).

He's merely pointing out what the bible says about satan's words to Eve.

And according to God Himself as relayed by the bible, satan's words on that subject were not a lie. Adam and Eve, did, according to God, become like Him knowing good from evil.

[Storm Rider]

I never could. And in the eyes of some, my inability was evidence I was “unworthy.”

Personal history aside, the statement seems to make complete hash of what the Apostle Paul wrote in the New Testament—that faith is a “gift” of God (Romans 12:3)—not something we accomplish of our own free will & volition (or “agency,” formerly known as “free agency” in LDS circles). For a good exposition of that passage see here: http://www.monergism...er/faith01.html

What do others here think? Can you/do you will yourself to believe, as Elder Jensen bore witness in the now famous “Swedish Rescue.” And if you can/do—where does it end? Can you choose to believe any fantasy you like?

--Erik

Hello Erik, I think that belief, or more exactly, a life of faith can be rather complex or at least there are many layers to this way of life. Faith, of itself, is a gift and not all are blessed with it. I think as we look at scripture we understand that "hope" is the fundamental building block that leads to belief and others into a life of abiding faith. This topic makes me think of Mother Theresa who appears to have lived the majority of her life devoid of what most would call a consistent walk with the Spirit. If nothing else, she exemplifies that it is possible to become completely devoted to living a faithful life, ever striving to glorify God, and yet having any consistent spiritual life. I am confident that her example exceeds anything that I could remotely accomplish. My life has been one of relatively consistent spiritual experiences that renews my faith. Even then I remain skeptical of many things and I don't follow easily. Living a life that exemplifies a commitment to God is possible even without the burning bush, the great vision, and often the constant presence of the Spirit, but it demands hope and it demands a willingness to seek God.

[savedbygrace]

I have never once heard on this board from believing LDS how the bible is unreliable. That appears to be a strawman. And I did not know that 5 solas was LDS. So the LDS are quoteing bible verses to non LDS. Why is that a problem?

I believe in your articles of faith it is stated that you believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly. That being the case how do you know which parts are correct and therefore reliable

[Hamba Tuhan]

[H]ow do you know which parts are correct and therefore reliable[?]

John 16:13.

[LordUther]

I believe in your articles of faith it is stated that you believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly. That being the case how do you know which parts are correct and therefore reliable

Would you believe in a bible that had been translated incorrectly?

When I was a youngster you would have the Gideon Society come to school assembly and hand out bibles to everyone (this usually happened in the first year of seniors-age 12) and they told us a story of something that happened once when translating the bible into an obscure language. I can't remember the language, it was an obscure one on an island somewhere, and they had no word for *** or donkey, so the translators searched for a word or phrase and came up with one that denoted a furry animal with long ears. The native speakers then wondered why Jesus would ride into Jerusalem on the back of a rabbit...?

A trite story to be sure but it serves its point, when translating into a foreign language with the best of intentions nuances and meanings can be lost/changed. An example, I speak russian, and what is considered good english when literally translated becomes bad russian, and not just in grammar but with the actual words used. An example I had a russian friend who barely spoke english she said to me that she enjoyed eating bran because "...it was helpful" I tried to explain to her that in english you would say "healthy" not "helpful". No, she protested, "helpful" look...and she got out her russian/english dictionary and showed how the word she wanted to use was "helpful" in english. It took me & another russian who was fluent in english a fair bit of effort to get it through to her that while "helpful" was the correct word to use to express the idea in russian, in english it would be the wrong word to use & the correct word to use to express the same sentiment was "healthy".

[mfbukowski]

I believe in your articles of faith it is stated that you believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly. That being the case how do you know which parts are correct and therefore reliable

Moroni 10:4-5

Revelation

Without that how does anybody know that ANY of it is reliable? Why not go by the Avesta instead of the Bible? http://www.avesta.org/

"Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)

"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence....” - Mary Boyce, Op. Cit. p. 29.

Edited August 8, 2013 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

How do you know that some itinerant preacher in the Mid-east was crucified for your sins 2000 years ago?

I know because it has been revealed to me that this is the path for me to follow to reach God.

[Five Solas]

Mola's not defending Lucifer (I'm not even sure how any adult with normal reasoning skills could conclude that from what he said).

He's merely pointing out what the bible says about satan's words to Eve.

And according to God Himself as relayed by the bible, satan's words on that subject were not a lie. Adam and Eve, did, according to God, become like Him knowing good from evil.

And to halconero, Vance, Mola, et al.--

Just so you know, what I wrote (concerning Lucifer’s lie in the Garden) isn’t one dude’s opinion, a Mars Hill opinion, or even just a Protestant opinion. It’s a Christian perspective based on what your Bible actually says. From The Catechism of the Catholic Church (#392)—

Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies.”

This isn’t the stuff of controversy among Christians. And the advice I gave you before was sound, bluebell. If someone makes you that offer—don’t rationalize, run!

--Erik

[Hamba Tuhan]

So just to be clear, the Lord was lying then when he stated, 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil'?

[canard78]

And to halconero, Vance, Mola, et al.--

Just so you know, what I wrote (concerning Lucifer’s lie in the Garden) isn’t one dude’s opinion, a Mars Hill opinion, or even just a Protestant opinion. It’s a Christian perspective based on what your Bible actually says. From The Catechism of the Catholic Church (#392)—

Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies.”

The knowledge of good and evil is what introduces the ability to make choices for good and ill. So he spoke truth in the hope of giving us access to the tools that would make us fall further.

[bluebell]

And to halconero, Vance, Mola, et al.--

Just so you know, what I wrote (concerning Lucifer’s lie in the Garden) isn’t one dude’s opinion, a Mars Hill opinion, or even just a Protestant opinion. It’s a Christian perspective based on what your Bible actually says. From The Catechism of the Catholic Church (#392)—

Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies.”

This isn’t the stuff of controversy among Christians. And the advice I gave you before was sound, bluebell. If someone makes you that offer—don’t rationalize, run!

--Erik

Let's make this easier.

God, in the bible, specifically says that adam and eve have become like the gods, knowing good and evil, after partaking the fruit. If satan was lying when he told eve that, then how come it came true?

Please just answer that question and use biblical references from the creation story to support your answer.

Our discussion can't move forward unless we start from there.

[mfbukowski]

And to halconero, Vance, Mola, et al.--

Just so you know, what I wrote (concerning Lucifer’s lie in the Garden) isn’t one dude’s opinion, a Mars Hill opinion, or even just a Protestant opinion. It’s a Christian perspective based on what your Bible actually says. From The Catechism of the Catholic Church (#392)—

Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies.”

This isn’t the stuff of controversy among Christians. And the advice I gave you before was sound, bluebell. If someone makes you that offer—don’t rationalize, run!

--Erik

See we believe in this little thing called "The Apostasy".

Our beliefs are not subject to taking a poll of Christianity and deciding what we like or don't, but if that is the way you want to go, I have no complaint against you.

Perhaps you could afford us the same freedom?

And by the way, not answering me doesn't make my comments disappear. Their relevance against your "arguments" is there to be judged by all who want to do so.