The Pope Is Quittin'

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Did you at least put in a good word for me? I would look awesome in that hat.

3DOP then you...sorry. Oh and 3rd Timothy Dalton from New York, but a US Cardinal will never have a chance. They don't think much of us Americans.

[Duncan]

If I were a Catholic, I think I wouid feel it was a positive and rational step for the Pope to take.

Since I'm not a Catholic, it's always interesting to see what the College of Cardinals comes up with. I think that Cardinal Ratzinger was a good choice, last time out. Perhaps they will pick an American this time!

bite your tongue! There are 3 Canadians who are Cardinals

[blackstrap]

Perhaps the Nigerian. The RCC is growing quickly in Africa.

[Stargazer]

bite your tongue! There are 3 Canadians who are Cardinals

Yes, I was reading that there is extremely slim likelihood that an American would be chosen. I suspect the Canucks have a better chance.

But someone's earlier remark that the current Pope might be resigning in order to have some influence on who they pick for his successor doesn't hold water. The pope has said that he will not be providing any input on that.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It is entirely unnecessary. Church organization and government does not require the President of the Church or any single apostle to be physically active.

Disagree, they have Admin duties, and also attend to Church enterprises...not to mention it would be nice to go enjoy life via vacations and other adventures. The 70 get a break at 70 years of age...the role they serve is difficult, ETB went though years where he showed up, but had no idea what was going on...that is why he had three counsels. Love them all and their desire to serve...I just wish they has options without the Church being shocked. Taking care of my Mother and Mother-in-law has caused me to be more aware of how difficult it is to do so little.

[Damien the Leper]

Meh...I'm not shocked. There was no audible gasp followed by a "Oh my gosh! What?!?" I'm sorry he isn't healthy enough to carry on in that position but hopefully they get a healthier person.

[blueadept]

I'm still getting over the shock of having a resigning Pope since it hasn't happened in 600 years. CNN correspondent, John Allen Jr., always attends the Religious Education Congress in LA and discusses the top issues in regards to the Vatican and he tossed out some top contenders last year but obviously no one paid too much attention last year since the Pope's health and activity wasn't in question. Needless to say, he should be bombarded for the info this year. I'm looking forward to his class during Congress which will be in about 10 days. In regards to the possibility of an American pope, he discussed archbishop Timothy Dolan from New York. My girls met him in Madrid a very jovial and loving guy. It will be interesting to hear what John Allen has to say and I'll relay his thoughts

[The Nehor]

According to the Pope prophecy this will be the pope who presides over the fall of Rome.

[Mark Beesley]

Disagree, they have Admin duties, and also attend to Church enterprises...not to mention it would be nice to go enjoy life via vacations and other adventures. The 70 get a break at 70 years of age...the role they serve is difficult, ETB went though years where he showed up, but had no idea what was going on...that is why he had three counsels. . . .

Exactly. There was no need for President Benson to resign because he could delegate all of his "duties" to others while still acting as the vessel for the Priesthood Keys. And the Church is flexible enough that if a third counselor is needed in the First Presidency, that can be accommodated.

You don't resign from Priesthood service. You are released, and in the case of the Prophet of the Church, that release comes directly from his Superior. Could the Lord change that through revelation? Sure, but I don't see that happening. Again, entirely unnecessary.

[Saints Alive]

.

You don't resign from Priesthood service. You are released, and in the case of the Prophet of the Church, that release comes directly from his Superior. Could the Lord change that through revelation? Sure, but I don't see that happening. Again, entirely unnecessary.

So the prophet could receive "personal revelation" that The Lord wishes him to be released in order to call a more physically or mentally firm Prophet? How is that practically different from resignation?

[The Nehor]

So the prophet could receive "personal revelation" that The Lord wishes him to be released in order to call a more physically or mentally firm Prophet? How is that practically different from resignation?

Because it is a release and not a resignation.

As a small point the Prophet can be removed by the Twelve in a Church Court. Procedure is in d&c.

[saemo]

It is a shock, but not a surprise. He had already said months ago that if he felt he didn't have enough stamina to perform all his duties, he would resign. He looked very frail at the Christmas Mass that was broadcast. There is plenty of buzz in the Catholic world. Lots of speculation. It is anticipated a new Pope will be elected before Easter, but that could be one of the many speculations that are going around.

[saemo]

It is entirely unnecessary. Church organization and government does not require the President of the Church or any single apostle to be physically active.

The primary role of the President of the Church is to act as the vessel for all of the Priesthood keys, then to delegate to others Priesthood duties that require action. While we have come to expect more, it is not required.

When we claim to be the true Church, what we are saying is that the Priesthood keys reside only in this Church. If the man charged with safeguarding those keys could simply resign for one reason or another, it seems to me that the claim of divine guidance and legitimate exercise of the Priesthood keys might be diminished.

It is a similar view in Catholicism, the Keys of Peter are held by the Church. They are exercised by the Bishop of Rome, who is Peter's successor. When Pope Benedict XVI resigns the keys are not lost or diminished, they remain held by the Church.

[The Nehor]

It is a shock, but not a surprise. He had already said months ago that if he felt he didn't have enough stamina to perform all his duties, he would resign. He looked very frail at the Christmas Mass that was broadcast. There is plenty of buzz in the Catholic world. Lots of speculation. It is anticipated a new Pope will be elected before Easter, but that could be one of the many speculations that are going around.

They have a system where rations are cut to the cardinals if they do not reach a decision until it literally goes down to bread and water. This is why it usually does not take too long for a decision to be reached.

[Mark Beesley]

So the prophet could receive "personal revelation" that The Lord wishes him to be released in order to call a more physically or mentally firm Prophet? How is that practically different from resignation?

What Nehor said . . .

Plus, such a revelation would likely involve more than simply the Prophet since it would involve changing established policy. Think back to 1978 . . .

[Gillebre]

When you were talking about the Prophet being released, a revelation was not what came to my mind.

I was thinking more about the Lord calling him home to that God who gave him life.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

When you were talking about the Prophet being released, a revelation was not what came to my mind.

I was thinking more about the Lord calling him home to that God who gave him life.

God does not call us home...that would mean he kills us. He "welcomes" us home as would any good parent.

[cinepro]

I believe it was President Kimball's son who told the story of President Kimball half joking that he wished he could be released from his calling when his health was failing in his later years.

Even with the help of counselors, being the prophet must carry an enormous burden, and the desire to perform the duties well must be a constant frustration for the prophets who find their health not up to the task.

[Kenngo1969]

I'm still getting over the shock of having a resigning Pope since it hasn't happened in 600 years. CNN correspondent, John Allen Jr., always attends the Religious Education Congress in LA and discusses the top issues in regards to the Vatican and he tossed out some top contenders last year but obviously no one paid too much attention last year since the Pope's health and activity wasn't in question. Needless to say, he should be bombarded for the info this year. I'm looking forward to his class during Congress which will be in about 10 days. In regards to the possibility of an American pope, he discussed archbishop Timothy Dolan from New York. My girls met him in Madrid a very jovial and loving guy. It will be interesting to hear what John Allen has to say and I'll relay his thoughts

See that you do, and I hope you have an enjoyable Congress!

[Kenngo1969]

Here are Dan Peterson's thoughts on the issue of service until death in the Roman Catholic Church and service until death in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I think they are a useful contribution to the discussion.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2013/02/the-leader-of-the-church-resigns-because-of-advancing-age-and-poor-health.html

[saemo]

Here are Dan Peterson's thoughts on the issue of service until death in the Roman Catholic Church and service until death in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I think they are a useful contribution to the discussion.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2013/02/the-leader-of-the-church-resigns-because-of-advancing-age-and-poor-health.html

Pretty good. Just this part:

Counselors. That brings up another distinction: The pope functions alone, in solitary majesty, as a kind of monarch. Presidents of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, however, function within a system of councils. The Quorum of the First Presidency includes not only the president himself, but at least two counselors. And they all work in conjunction with the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. And each and every one of these men, in both quorums, is sustained by the membership of the Church — and, we believe, by the Lord — as a “prophet, seer, and revelator.”

The pope does not act alone. From Lumen Gentium:

22. Just as in the Gospel, the Lord so disposing, St. Peter and the other apostles constitute one apostolic college, so in a similar way the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, and the bishops, the successors of the apostles, are joined together. Indeed, the very ancient practice whereby bishops duly established in all parts of the world were in communion with one another and with the Bishop of Rome in a bond of unity, charity and peace, and also the councils assembled together, in which more profound issues were settled in common, the opinion of the many having been prudently considered, both of these factors are already an indication of the collegiate character and aspect of the episcopal order; and the ecumenical councils held in the course of centuries are also manifest proof of that same character. And it is intimated also in the practice, introduced in ancient times, of summoning several bishops to take part in the elevation of the newly elected to the ministry of the high priesthood. Hence, one is constituted a member of the episcopal body in virtue of sacramental consecration and hierarchical communion with the head and members of the body.

But the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head. The pope's power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power. The order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head. This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff. For our Lord placed Simon alone as the rock and the bearer of the keys of the Church, and made him shepherd of the whole flock; it is evident, however, that the power of binding and loosing, which was given to Peter, was granted also to the college of apostles, joined with their head. This college, insofar as it is composed of many, expresses the variety and universality of the People of God, but insofar as it is assembled under one head, it expresses the unity of the flock of Christ. In it, the bishops, faithfully recognizing the primacy and pre-eminence of their head, exercise their own authority for the good of their own faithful, and indeed of the whole Church, the Holy Spirit supporting its organic structure and harmony with moderation. The supreme power in the universal Church, which this college enjoys, is exercised in a solemn way in an ecumenical council. A council is never ecumenical unless it is confirmed or at least accepted as such by the successor of Peter; and it is prerogative of the Roman Pontiff to convoke these councils, to preside over them and to confirm them. This same collegiate power can be exercised together with the pope by the bishops living in all parts of the world, provided that the head of the college calls them to collegiate action, or at least approves of or freely accepts the united action of the scattered bishops, so that it is thereby made a collegiate act.

And this part:

Which brings up the last matter that I want to mention here: As the then-third-ranking cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church once told me and two or three others while we were in his office in Vatican City, “no pope has ever received a revelation.” But we believe that the leaders of our church both have and do. If there is ever a change — and I don’t know that there ever will be, nor that there ever should be — it will have to come by revelation.

A small but important clarification. Catholics view revelation in a different way. There is Revelation of the kind of that is doctrinal, most central is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. This type of Revelation is eternally binding and cannot change. So no, no pope would ever receive revelation that changed doctrine. There is revelation of the kind that comes from the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Pope Benedict XVI said, in his resignation address that he had prayed for guidance. All Catholics believe in the guiding revelation of the Holy Spirit. In the office of the Pope, this guidance includes the gift of the Spirit in discerning God's will for all Church matters, great and small.

Which brings me to one difference I don't see in that excellent blog post. How we perceive callings from God. Discernment of the individual is not only normal, it is expected, as all can seek the guidance from God to know His will in serving Him. The college of Cardinals will meet to elect a new Pope, which is a process of prayer, worship and discernment. When a Pope is elected, the man who is elected also discerns for himself, one that seeks to know the will of God in accepting the Cardinal's decision. He accepts freely the Papal office, and all that it entails, spiritually, physically and mentally. Cardinal Ratzinger was a man of God before his election, and accepted the will of God at the age of 78, even though he has said, he would have much preferred a quiet retirement of prayer and writing.

He also hinted a few months ago that he was always discerning what he knew his physical and mental limitations were, because of age, against the tradition of the Church to serve as Pope until death. His discernment led to his resignation, which is a shock because it just hasn't been done for so long, but also not a surprise. It is sad in a way, but we understand, as he has shown himself to be a man of compassion and duty. His resignation demonstrates both of these attributes.

A Bishop is installed to the office of pope, not ordained. Pope Benedict XVI is an ordained Bishop, which is a lifetime commitment. He is still a Bishop, albeit retired.

Edited for typos.

[Stargazer]

God does not call us home...that would mean he kills us. He "welcomes" us home as would any good parent.

A distinction without a difference.

[blackstrap]

From the NDE experiences , many are told that it is not yet their 'time' to come home and that they must return. So, that must mean that for some there will come a moment in which they are finished their mortal probation and can be called home. Maybe it is just the "ding" of the 'time's up ' oven.

[Calm]

A distinction without a difference.

IMO, there is a difference between turning off a switch of a life support machine and throwing the switch of an electric chair though both result in the death of the individual.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

A distinction without a difference.

Not how so...but to each his own.