Is Murder An Unpardonable Sin?

[Stargazer]

I'm seeing if I can get some insights into this subject, and for a close-to-home reason.

Two murder incidents have had some effect on me; one occurred in the far past and the other happened very recently. Both involved family members of mine.

My great grandaunt Delia, sister of one of my great-grandmothers, was murdered in her home sometime back in 1983. I only met her once when I was about 8 or 9 years old, and couldn't say that I knew her, not really. The motive was apparently robbery, since she owned a couple of apartment buildings and it was the beginning of the month and she had a large amount of rent money (cash) in her home at the time. It was taken in the crime. Her murderer remains unknown to this day.

One of my stepsons, I'll call him Kenneth in this story, was at a bar very early this morning (he's a NOM, I guess you could say) with his friend Casey, when a man came in with a knife and started attacking Casey. Kenneth tried to intervene and got stabbed in the side (getting in a good couple of punches to the perp's face before being wounded himself). Fortunately, he was wearing a good leather jacket at the time, and although the knife penetrated the coat, it prevented any serious damage. He has a puncture wound, but it didn't pierce his lungs (it was a ribcage wound). But Casey died at the scene from multiple stab wounds. I was rather shaken up upon hearing about this and seeing my stepson's injury (he's quite ambulatory, just can't lift much). But upon checking the newspaper online I found that I knew the perp! What's worse, he's a member of my ward! Although he's been less active, I think it has been as recently as a couple of months ago that he attended church.

Well, that's the story. Murder sucks, definitely. So I wanted to get some opinions about this.

I have heard some say that deliberate murder is an unpardonable sin, but is it? Can one repent of it? Or is such a person bound to inhabit the Telestial Kingdom without any possibility of reprieve?

When I was pretty new in Church I remember some member telling me that one could move up from the Telestial to the Terrestrial Kingdom, and presumably to the Celestial Kingdom as well. While this is something that I personally doubt, I don't know for sure, so let's hear what you think (or know).

Oh, and for those of you who aren't LDS, how does this shake out in your theology?

[Calm]

I think it depends a great deal on the mental, emotional and spiritual state of the individual and how much self control and understanding s/he has at the time.

I think there are likely extreme cases where it is unforgiveable (cannot be repented of) but more because of what the murderer is like (he is incapable of desiring to be forgiven) than for the act itself.

As far as unpardonable...which I interpret as asking if Christ can pay for this sin as he pays for others...I am not sure as it is an act that is such a rejection of what God is, the source of our life, perhaps it is a sin that has to be paid by the person himself.

[volgadon]

I'm seeing if I can get some insights into this subject, and for a close-to-home reason.

Two murder incidents have had some effect on me; one occurred in the far past and the other happened very recently. Both involved family members of mine.

My great grandaunt Delia, sister of one of my great-grandmothers, was murdered in her home sometime back in 1983. I only met her once when I was about 8 or 9 years old, and couldn't say that I knew her, not really. The motive was apparently robbery, since she owned a couple of apartment buildings and it was the beginning of the month and she had a large amount of rent money (cash) in her home at the time. It was taken in the crime. Her murderer remains unknown to this day.

One of my stepsons, I'll call him Kenneth in this story, was at a bar very early this morning (he's a NOM, I guess you could say) with his friend Casey, when a man came in with a knife and started attacking Casey. Kenneth tried to intervene and got stabbed in the side (getting in a good couple of punches to the perp's face before being wounded himself). Fortunately, he was wearing a good leather jacket at the time, and although the knife penetrated the coat, it prevented any serious damage. He has a puncture wound, but it didn't pierce his lungs (it was a ribcage wound). But Casey died at the scene from multiple stab wounds. I was rather shaken up upon hearing about this and seeing my stepson's injury (he's quite ambulatory, just can't lift much). But upon checking the newspaper online I found that I knew the perp! What's worse, he's a member of my ward! Although he's been less active, I think it has been as recently as a couple of months ago that he attended church.

Well, that's the story. Murder sucks, definitely. So I wanted to get some opinions about this.

I have heard some say that deliberate murder is an unpardonable sin, but is it? Can one repent of it? Or is such a person bound to inhabit the Telestial Kingdom without any possibility of reprieve?

When I was pretty new in Church I remember some member telling me that one could move up from the Telestial to the Terrestrial Kingdom, and presumably to the Celestial Kingdom as well. While this is something that I personally doubt, I don't know for sure, so let's hear what you think (or know).

Oh, and for those of you who aren't LDS, how does this shake out in your theology?

First of all, horrifying stories. My deepest sympathies to you and your stepson. Murder is not an unpardonable sin, but it might as well be. What I mean is it is one of the worst sins imaginable. I don't think there is a way to talk about the damage it does without sounding glib or trite. Yet, I believe some people can repent. God'll have to judge, the set of motives and circumstances in each case is beyond to be impossible to fully unravel for anyone but.

[Bernard Gui]

So sorry for your awful experiences. Remember the Lamanites who buried their weapons once they were taught that

murder was an offense against God and man. How does one give back a life one has taken....make restitution?

Edited December 5, 2012 by Bernard Gui

[Freedom]

No it is not, for the atonement covers all sins. Murder is atrocious but in the eternal scheme of things we learn that no amount of wickedness has any lasting affect on anybody.

[pogi]

Alma 39:6 "...and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness."

In the same verse it says that the only unpardonable sin is denying the Holy Ghost.

[Sky]

I've never heard about the possibility of moving up from a lower kingdom of glory to a higher one. After we've been judged, we are assigned to the kingdom that we earned, and that's where we'll stay. At least that is my understanding.

With regards to murderers, my understanding is that they will eventually inherit the Telestial Kingdom - after they have suffered sufficiently for their sins in spirit prison and received their resurrection.

My understanding of the unpardonable sin is that it involves the denying of the Holy Ghost - and that is a sin which denies a person an inheritance in any kingdom of glory, or in other words, outer darkness. Whether a particular murderer inherits the Telestial Kingdom or outer darkness is up to God to judge. But rest assured He will take the situation and the surrounding circumstances into full consideration.

[Stargazer]

Alma 39:6 "...and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness."

In the same verse it says that the only unpardonable sin is denying the Holy Ghost.

Well, by unpardonable I think I mean something more along the line of sticking you permanently and eternally in the Telestial Kingdom, that it cannot be repented of.

I think from the scripture you quote that it is possible to be forgiven, even perhaps to not count against being exalted in the end. But while possible it is nevertheless not likely. If I read that correctly.

[pogi]

Well, by unpardonable I think I mean something more along the line of sticking you permanently and eternally in the Telestial Kingdom, that it cannot be repented of.

I think from the scripture you quote that it is possible to be forgiven, even perhaps to not count against being exalted in the end. But while possible it is nevertheless not likely. If I read that correctly.

"Though your sins be as scarlet, they will be white as snow, and I the Lord will remember them no more." That is the miracle of forgiveness. Upon repentance (murder is a repentable sin) and forgiveness, one is entitled to all the blessings of full membership and participation in the saving ordinances. One cannot be constrained to a lesser degree of glory for a forgiven sin.

Edited December 5, 2012 by pogi

[pogi]

True story,

I had an investigator who had committed murder and wanted to be baptized. He was interviewed by the mission president and required a written letter of approval from the first presidency. I was transferred before the approval came, last I heard, he had not been accepted for baptism but required further preparation. I'm not sure if he eventually did get baptized. But, my mission president assured me that he could be baptized with approval, washing him clean and acceptable before the Lord.

[Rob Osborn]

I'm seeing if I can get some insights into this subject, and for a close-to-home reason.

Two murder incidents have had some effect on me; one occurred in the far past and the other happened very recently. Both involved family members of mine.

My great grandaunt Delia, sister of one of my great-grandmothers, was murdered in her home sometime back in 1983. I only met her once when I was about 8 or 9 years old, and couldn't say that I knew her, not really. The motive was apparently robbery, since she owned a couple of apartment buildings and it was the beginning of the month and she had a large amount of rent money (cash) in her home at the time. It was taken in the crime. Her murderer remains unknown to this day.

One of my stepsons, I'll call him Kenneth in this story, was at a bar very early this morning (he's a NOM, I guess you could say) with his friend Casey, when a man came in with a knife and started attacking Casey. Kenneth tried to intervene and got stabbed in the side (getting in a good couple of punches to the perp's face before being wounded himself). Fortunately, he was wearing a good leather jacket at the time, and although the knife penetrated the coat, it prevented any serious damage. He has a puncture wound, but it didn't pierce his lungs (it was a ribcage wound). But Casey died at the scene from multiple stab wounds. I was rather shaken up upon hearing about this and seeing my stepson's injury (he's quite ambulatory, just can't lift much). But upon checking the newspaper online I found that I knew the perp! What's worse, he's a member of my ward! Although he's been less active, I think it has been as recently as a couple of months ago that he attended church.

Well, that's the story. Murder sucks, definitely. So I wanted to get some opinions about this.

I have heard some say that deliberate murder is an unpardonable sin, but is it? Can one repent of it? Or is such a person bound to inhabit the Telestial Kingdom without any possibility of reprieve?

When I was pretty new in Church I remember some member telling me that one could move up from the Telestial to the Terrestrial Kingdom, and presumably to the Celestial Kingdom as well. While this is something that I personally doubt, I don't know for sure, so let's hear what you think (or know).

Oh, and for those of you who aren't LDS, how does this shake out in your theology?

As I understand it murder can be forgiven except in cases where the person has been through the higher order of the priesthood and is married n eternity. Here-

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord. (D&C 132:27)

[pogi]

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord. (D&C 132:27)

I wonder what that means to assent unto his death. Does that mean that murder is not enough, that we have to "assent unto his death" as well? Or, is the act of murder itself, after entering into the new and everlasting covenant, the act of assenting unto his death?

Edited December 5, 2012 by pogi

[3DOP]

Oh, and for those of you who aren't LDS, how does this shake out in your theology?

It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that though hell is populated, we do not know by whom. We may hope that any sinner can repent before death and be saved.

In 1902, Allesandro Serenelli was eighteen and St. Maria Goretti was only twelve when finding her alone, he stabbed her to death when she resisted his sexual advances. She lived long enough to go to the hospital where she confessed that she forgave her murderer and wished to see him in heaven some day.

Serenelli was sentenced to thirty years in prison. The following is from an article online that explains a most remarkable example of forgiveness and conversion:

Alessandro Serenelli was captured shortly after Maria's death. Originally, he was going to be sentenced to life, but since he was a minor at that time the sentence was commuted to 30 years in prison. He remained unrepentant and uncommunicative from the world for three years, until a local bishop, Monsignor Giovanni Blandini, visited him in jail. Serenelli wrote a thank you note to the Bishop asking for his prayers and telling him about a dream, "in which Maria Goretti gave him lilies, which burned immediately in his hands."

After his release, Alessandro Serenelli visited Maria's still-living mother, Assunta, and begged her forgiveness. She forgave him, saying that if Maria had forgiven him on her deathbed then she could not do less, and they attended Mass together the next day, receiving Holy Communion side by side. Alessandro reportedly prayed every day to Maria Goretti and referred to her as "my little saint." He attended her canonization in 1950.

Serenelli later became a laybrother of the Order of Friars Minor Capuchin, living in a monastery and working as its receptionist and gardener until death peacefully in 1970.

---http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=78

3DOP

[mathonihah]

According to D&C 42:79, murder is an unpardonable sin.

[volgadon]

True story,

I had an investigator who had committed murder and wanted to be baptized. He was interviewed by the mission president and required a written letter of approval from the first presidency. I was transferred before the approval came, last I heard, he had not been accepted for baptism but required further preparation. I'm not sure if he eventually did get baptized. But, my mission president assured me that he could be baptized with approval, washing him clean and acceptable before the Lord.

One of my friends had a similar situation with an investigator.

[Duncan]

terribly sorry for your loss. I think that unrepented murder is much worse then remorseful murder, but then again not all murder is the same weight. I doubt that the burglars planned on killing anyone as typically burglars don't plan on meeting up with anyone. Perhaps the person that killed your Aunt doesn't even know she was killed as a result of their actions and that's why they haven't shown up yet or was themselves killed or died in the meantime. again sorry for your loss.

[treeface]

I have heard some say that deliberate murder is an unpardonable sin, but is it? Can one repent of it? Or is such a person bound to inhabit the Telestial Kingdom without any possibility of reprieve?

When I was pretty new in Church I remember some member telling me that one could move up from the Telestial to the Terrestrial Kingdom, and presumably to the Celestial Kingdom as well. While this is something that I personally doubt, I don't know for sure, so let's hear what you think (or know).

David murdered Uriah (indirectly, but intentionally), yet eventually received the assurance that his soul "would not be left in hell". So he apparently had reason to believe that, even though he'd be spending some time there, he wouldn't be spending all of eternity in the kingdom of murderers and such (Telestial).

And D&C 19:1-12 implies that "eternal damnation" may not be "eternal" in the sense that we assume.

"Though your sins be as scarlet, they will be white as snow, and I the Lord will remember them no more." That is the miracle of forgiveness. Upon repentance (murder is a repentable sin) and forgiveness, one is entitled to all the blessings of full membership and participation in the saving ordinances. One cannot be constrained to a lesser degree of glory for a forgiven sin.

^^What this guy said^^

I was friends with a branch president whose son was murdered. I remember one time in class a visitor (who didn't know about this) insisted some crimes were so heinous that there could never be forgiveness no matter what. The (by then former) branch president's response has stuck in my mind for decades: "I place no limitations on the healing power of the atonement of Christ."

Question for pogi: Why would the Lord "remember [the sins of the repentant] no more"?

[DavidB]

David's soul not being left in hell, would not mean he is not ultimately in Telestial kingdom. Hell in any official understanding does not include any kingdom of heaven.

As I understand there is only one unpardonable sin, and that sin is deny the Holy Ghost.

[treeface]

David's soul not being left in hell, would not mean he is not ultimately in Telestial kingdom. Hell in any official understanding does not include any kingdom of heaven.

"And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament... These are they who are thrust down to hell." D&C 76:81,84

[The Nehor]

I wonder what that means to assent unto his death. Does that mean that murder is not enough, that we have to "assent unto his death" as well? Or, is the act of murder itself, after entering into the new and everlasting covenant, the act of assenting unto his death?

I means assent to the death of Jesus. Basically if you could you would see Him killed again.

[The Nehor]

"And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament... These are they who are thrust down to hell." D&C 76:81,84

Yes, but that hell is temporary.

[treeface]

Yes, but that hell [from D&C 76] is temporary.

Could you elaborate? How did you come to that conclusion? I may well agree with you, but want to understand you first.

[Freedom]

According to D&C 42:79, murder is an unpardonable sin.

This verse is talking about civil law, that we do not forgive such transgressions but rather, they are tried before the courts. Moral laws not governed by the laws of the land can be forgiven such as adultery or violations of the word of wisdom.

D&C 132:19 refers specifically to innocent blood. The current official interpretation indicates that only the Savior had innocent blood. So the idea is that, once you have experienced the fullness of the atonement and then reject it you will not be forgiven.

[DavidB]

Yes, but that hell is temporary.

Could you elaborate? How did you come to that conclusion? I may well agree with you, but want to understand you first.

Treeface, you need to read D&C 76:85, hell is temporary for those who will inherit the Telestial Kingdom. The telestial kingdom is not Hell.

[The Nehor]

Could you elaborate? How did you come to that conclusion? I may well agree with you, but want to understand you first.

At the end of the Millenium those in hell will have all repented of their sins as far as they can and will be resurrected and given a kingdom of glory. Only those consigned to perdition who have killed all the light in them so there is nothing left in them that desires repentance will be returned to hell after the resurrection. If you want to know what that is like the scriptures state that it has been shown unto many but the vision is short and shut up quickly and no one knows the full depth of it unless they go there.