Clarify The Sin

[canard78]

If this is the case, then:

When a married straight man and a straight woman married to someone else are kissing, it is not breaking the LoC because any unmarried couple kissing is not.

The same separately-married couple holding hands is not breaking the LoC because any unmarried couple doing the same is not.

The same separately-married couple supporting each other and their extended family is not breaking any law because it is not when unmarried couples do it.

Not even remotely comparable.

While that's not breaking the law of chastity ("no sexual relations other than your spouse"), it's breaking other promises of loyalty to the person you're married to. It's an act of betrayal of trust and fidelity.

[canard78]

We have every reason to believe that the process for creating spirit children is the same as the process for creating mortal children, minus labor pains for the woman. Might I humbly, lovingly suggest that for you to speculate that homosexual couples will have the ability to procreate in the eternities is um....reaching a bit?

We do??!! Where?

This messy, slow, unpredictable, inefficient and very mammalian process for creating 1 child ever 2 to 3 years is the way "intelligences" were organised?

What doctrinal foundation do you have for that? A (immortal) sperm and an (immortal) egg needed to create a spirit? But skip the labour pains...

(Lovingly and humbly of course)

[Ahab]

Alright... what is it that makes you believe that organizing intelligences into spirit children would happen similarly to the process for creating mortal bodies for spirits to inhabit?

I can answer that for you. Do you realize that the purpose of the atonement is to restore us to the condition of Adam and Eve before they fell in the garden of Eden, except that condition will then be an eternal condition, no longer being possible for us to fall or die again?

Once you understand that you can then ask how Adam and Eve would have had children, before they fell, if they had known how.

[canard78]

Look again. "Those covenants" are irrefutably heterosexual. Nothing in them considers anything less than procreation behind marriage, period, full stop. What are you not seeing? The world you dream of is in a different universe from mine, we split here on this.

I've tried to inculcate "the script" for years: SSA is normal for those who have it. They ought to hold themselves to the same standards as heteros, i.e. wait for sex until married, or any possible permutation of "marriage" that allows for genuine commitment that is intended to last a lifetime. Etc.

I've failed to inculcate "the script". The more I think about it the less capable I feel of living in a world gone mad after sex, making it the core issue of "marriage", making it out to be a "civil right", making it out to be "the same", "natural", good and wholesome and lovely, etc. ad nauseam. Like any other social ill, the practitioners/victims want validation rather than have to face the fact that they require healing instead. That's the world we live temporarily in: an imperfect, messed up one. Nothing about accepting SSA and all its appendages is going to promote better society, but only deepen the social ills we already face: broken homes/families, confused children, addictions mounting to cope with the mounting burdens of social stress, society unraveling as even more deviant pov advocacy groups demand their own protection and acceptance. It won't stop here....

I find it really interesting reading this. Over on the LeGrand Richards thread you were talking about your incredulity at a member refused to accept the 1978 priesthood restoration to black members. He persisted in his view that it was not acceptable while you were 'exstatic.' You observed that his upbringing and environment had lead to him and you reaching very different perspectives on black people and you struggled to understaned how he could have such a different view.

Reading the post above... are you not the same as the man you met? Some social/environmental influence from some point in your life means you can't reconcile a position that goes against your perspectives on life.

[canard78]

I can answer that for you. Do you realize that the purpose of the atonement is to restore us to the condition of Adam and Eve before they fell in the garden of Eden, except that condition will then be an eternal condition, no longer being possible for us to fall or die again?

Once you understand that you can then ask how Adam and Eve would have had children, before they fell, if they had known how.

Which was...?

Nephi makes it clear that until the fall they could not have children. And even if they had been given the knowledge they would have been creating physical children, not spiritual children organised from "intelligences."

[rockpond]

I can answer that for you. Do you realize that the purpose of the atonement is to restore us to the condition of Adam and Eve before they fell in the garden of Eden, except that condition will then be an eternal condition, no longer being possible for us to fall or die again?

Once you understand that you can then ask how Adam and Eve would have had children, before they fell, if they had known how.

You seem to be conflating the creation of bodies (to house spirits) with the creation of spirits (the organizing of intelligences).

[Ahab]

You seem to be conflating the creation of bodies (to house spirits) with the creation of spirits (the organizing of intelligences).

No, I understand there are 2 separate stages involved in our creation. At least at this point. Later we will go on to stage 3.

If Adam and Eve had known how to have children before they fell, after our Father had given them another body for their spirit to dwell in, they would have had children in the same way our Father and Mother in heaven have children. Their children would have had what we think of as a spirit body, only, just as that is the only body they had in heaven before their Father and Mother created another body for their spirit body to dwell in. For their children to have had another body for their spirits to dwell in, Adam and Eve would have needed to create yet another body for each of their spirit children to dwell in, just as our Father and Mother had done for them.

It is only because our 2nd body dies that our 1st body must leave it, and when our 2nd body is resurrected it will no longer be mortal but as it was in the garden of Eden before the fall, with our spirit never leaving (or required to leave) our 2nd body, again.

[bluebell]

It seems obvious from what has been revealed to us about the gospel and the plan of salvation, as well as how exaltation occurs (that it can only happen when a man and a woman is sealed together and exalted together) and when spirit children become an option (only after a sealed man and woman is exalted) that regardless of how spirit children are made, the process takes a male and a female.

[canard78]

No, I understand there are 2 separate stages involved in our creation. At least at this point. Later we will go on to stage 3.

If Adam and Eve had known how to have children before they fell, after our Father had given them another body for their spirit to dwell in, they would have had children in the same way our Father and Mother in heaven have children. Their children would have had what we think of as a spirit body, only, just as that is the only body they had in heaven before their Father and Mother created another body for their spirit body to dwell in. For their children to have had another body for their spirits to dwell in, Adam and Eve would have needed to create yet another body for each of their spirit children to dwell in, just as our Father and Mother had done for them.

It is only because our 2nd body dies that our 1st body must leave it, and when our 2nd body is resurrected it will no longer be mortal but as it was in the garden of Eden before the fall, with our spirit never leaving (or required to leave) our 2nd body, again.

If... CFR please on all the above. Or if it's your own opinion, don't worry. I just wondered which (recent) prophet or canonised scripture taught this.

Your suggestions were never part of the plan. Adam and Eve didn't accidentaly stumble into mortal existence. We are not living plan B.

[rockpond]

Deleting. I had asked for a CFR just as Canard did.

Edited July 17, 2013 by rockpond

[canard78]

It seems obvious from what has been revealed to us about the gospel and the plan of salvation, as well as how exaltation occurs (that it can only happen when a man and a woman is sealed together and exalted together) and when spirit children become an option (only after a sealed man and woman is exalted) that regardless of how spirit children are made, the process takes a male and a female.

It's only obvious because we draw an assumption. We know nothing of how spirit children are created. There is no revealed doctrine.

Besides, we accept marriages in the church where there will be no chance of spirit children. I have a friend who, after her husband died, married a second person (a church member). They did so knowing full well that they were only getting married until death parted them.

Brigham Young was sealed for time only to some of Joseph's wives. He even had a child with Zina, but she was still sealed for eternity to Joseph.

Even if you're right and the laws of the universe require a male and female exalted being to create spirits (and I see no evidence for this beyond assumptions), we still have marriages where there is no intention to be eternal creators, only mortal companions.

[rockpond]

It seems obvious from what has been revealed to us about the gospel and the plan of salvation, as well as how exaltation occurs (that it can only happen when a man and a woman is sealed together and exalted together) and when spirit children become an option (only after a sealed man and woman is exalted) that regardless of how spirit children are made, the process takes a male and a female.

That is not obvious to me. I'm not sure that organizing intelligences into spirit children requires both a male and a female. I'm not even certain that it requires two people.

[Ahab]

If... CFR please on all the above. Or if it's your own opinion, don't worry. I just wondered which (recent) prophet or canonised scripture taught this.

It's all gleaned directly from the revelations we've been given. Our Father told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply before they fell, and even though we know they didn't before the fall we also know they were still a man and a woman and what a man and woman can do when they put their bodies together and have sexual relations with each other. If you want to think Eve would have been barren for all of eternity after every sexual relations encounter then just because she hadn't fallen yet then you are free to think that for as long as you want to.

Your suggestions were never part of the plan. Adam and Eve didn't accidentaly stumble into mortal existence. We are not living plan B.

Plan B would have been if we had not fallen. Plan A was that we fall, and yes, we did fall, so we'll have to wait until we are resurrected to get back to the same physical condition Adam and Eve were in when God commanded them to be fruitful and multiply. Let's hope our women won't be barren for eternity then. Edited July 17, 2013 by Ahab

[bluebell]

It's only obvious because we draw an assumption. We know nothing of how spirit children are created. There is no revealed doctrine.

Besides, we accept marriages in the church where there will be no chance of spirit children. I have a friend who, after her husband died, married a second person (a church member). They did so knowing full well that they were only getting married until death parted them.

Brigham Young was sealed for time only to some of Joseph's wives. He even had a child with Zina, but she was still sealed for eternity to Joseph.

Even if you're right and the laws of the universe require a male and female exalted being to create spirits (and I see no evidence for this beyond assumptions), we still have marriages where there is no intention to be eternal creators, only mortal companions.

Let me restate. (and I apologize that this is all mashed together but the enter key still doesn't work for me). There is no proof that either of us is right, but there are evidences to support my beliefs on the subject. They are: 1) it is taught that only exalted beings will have be able to create spirit children. 2) it is taught that exaltation is only possible when a man and woman are sealed together. Therefore, the evidence strongly implies that two women or two men (who cannot fulfill either qualification) will not be able to have spirit children. What are the evidences that support your position?

Edited July 18, 2013 by bluebell

[bluebell]

That is not obvious to me. I'm not sure that organizing intelligences into spirit children requires both a male and a female. I'm not even certain that it requires two people.

That's fine. It's completely acceptable for you to go off of your opinion alone if you want to. But, as far as what is taught in the church (which I believe is the only authoritative place we have to go to find evidence to solve this issue) the answer is obvious. Let me restate. (and I apologize that this is all mashed together but the enter key still doesn't work for me). There is no proof that either of us is right, but there are evidences to support my beliefs on the subject. They are: 1) it is taught that only exalted beings will have be able to create spirit children. 2) it is taught that exaltation is only possible when a man and woman are sealed together. Therefore, the evidence strongly implies that two women or two men (who cannot fulfill either qualification) will not be able to have spirit children. What evidences from an authoritative source can you share to support your assertion? (honest question, not trying to be snarky) Edited July 18, 2013 by bluebell

[Tacenda]

Let me restate. (and I apologize that this is all mashed together but the enter key still doesn't work for me). There is no proof that either of us is right, but there are evidences to support my beliefs on the subject. They are: 1) it is taught that only exalted beings will have be able to create spirit children. 2) it is taught that exaltation is only possible when a man and woman are sealed together. Therefore, the evidence strongly implies that two women or two men (who cannot fulfill either qualification) will not be able to have spirit children. What are the evidences that support your position?

Toggle button works great for me. It's a little button on the top left. It's been strange how sometimes everything is underlined, or slanted or sometimes bolded. But using that button has done the trick!

[bluebell]

Toggle button works great for me. It's a little button on the top left. It's been strange how sometimes everything is underlined, or slanted or sometimes bolded. But using that button has done the trick!

Top left of the website? I don't see any buttons at the top left of the website screen. What am I missing?

[Calm]

Top left of the website? I don't see any buttons at the top left of the website screen. What am I missing?

Top left of the reply box. It looks like a light switch and is next to a what looks like an eraser.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I never seen that definition provided in CHI1. Do you have a reference?

Seriously? Some questions are left better, in-asked. What activities would you described as homosexual behavior.?

[Buzzard]

Seriously? Some questions are left better, in-asked. What activities would you described as homosexual behavior.?

I doubt that anyone would answer, since the specifics could earn a suspension. But any adult growing up in modern society would know the answer.

[rockpond]

It's all gleaned directly from the revelations we've been given. Our Father told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply before they fell, and even though we know they didn't before the fall we also know they were still a man and a woman and what a man and woman can do when they put their bodies together and have sexual relations with each other. If you want to think Eve would have been barren for all of eternity after every sexual relations encounter then just because she hadn't fallen yet then you are free to think that for as long as you want to.

Again, you are referring to the creation of a body. There is nothing to suggest that Adam & Eve having sexual relations prior to the fall would have organized an intelligence into a spirit. You are just speculating.

[rockpond]

Seriously? Some questions are left better, in-asked. What activities would you described as homosexual behavior.?

I doubt that anyone would answer, since the specifics could earn a suspension. But any adult growing up in modern society would know the answer.

That's the point of the article in the OP. The church, through its handbook, is saying that "homosexual behavior" is a sin. It separates that sin our independent of adultery & fornication. Obviously sexual relations among two people of the same gender who are not married is a sin. But there does not seem to be a consensus on this thread about other "homosexual behavior" such as two single males holding hands on a date or two unmarried females kissing.

[rockpond]

That's fine. It's completely acceptable for you to go off of your opinion alone if you want to. But, as far as what is taught in the church (which I believe is the only authoritative place we have to go to find evidence to solve this issue) the answer is obvious. Let me restate. (and I apologize that this is all mashed together but the enter key still doesn't work for me). There is no proof that either of us is right, but there are evidences to support my beliefs on the subject. They are: 1) it is taught that only exalted beings will have be able to create spirit children. 2) it is taught that exaltation is only possible when a man and woman are sealed together. Therefore, the evidence strongly implies that two women or two men (who cannot fulfill either qualification) will not be able to have spirit children. What evidences from an authoritative source can you share to support your assertion? (honest question, not trying to be snarky)

I agree with your points 1 & 2. But I am also open to the possibility that the Lord could reveal that a gay couple could be sealed together. If that were to happen, I don't see why they couldn't also be promised eternal increase as well.

The evidence to support my assertion is that we are taught that we are eternal beings. We existed as intelligences prior to Heavenly Father organizing us into spirits. I see no evidence in scripture that shows this process needs to mimic the process for creating physical bodies the way we create them on earth.

[canard78]

It's all gleaned directly from the revelations we've been given. Our Father told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply before they fell, and even though we know they didn't before the fall we also know they were still a man and a woman and what a man and woman can do when they put their bodies together and have sexual relations with each other. If you want to think Eve would have been barren for all of eternity after every sexual relations encounter then just because she hadn't fallen yet then you are free to think that for as long as you want to.

Plan B would have been if we had not fallen. Plan A was that we fall, and yes, we did fall, so we'll have to wait until we are resurrected to get back to the same physical condition Adam and Eve were in when God commanded them to be fruitful and multiply. Let's hope our women won't be barren for eternity then.

It's our own scriptures that teach me this:

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

The whole point of the Garden is as a symbol of our innocent, childlike state. That we embraced the opportunity to enter the "lone and dreary" one. We can never turn to God and say "why did you make me do this" because each of us, including Adam & Eve chose it.

That's why in the temple they represent us. Because each of us chose this and rejected the limitations of pre-mortal paradise. Adam & Eve were still in a pre mortal existence in the garden. There was no plan B because God had designed (and we had embraced) plan A.

[Tacenda]

Top left of the reply box. It looks like a light switch and is next to a what looks like an eraser.

Thanks Cal, I should have been more specific.