Is Murder An Unpardonable Sin?

[DavidB]

Nehor, they suffer rather than repent; from LDS.org,

Telestial

These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son. (See D&C 76:81–88, 103–6, 109.)

Spirit Prison

The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.

Edited December 5, 2012 by DavidB

[CV75]

I'm seeing if I can get some insights into this subject, and for a close-to-home reason.

First of all, my condolences for such suffering by all involved.

I think we are judged according to what we know and according to what the Lord expects of us in the “bounds and habitations” in which He has placed us. So murder would be unpardonable for the person who knows better and of whom the Lord expects no murder, and also for thoe who refuse His Atonement.

Perhaps “unpardonable” relates to phases of our probation and judgment—unpardonable in this life (“this world” / “in the world”) but pardonable in the spirit world (“world to come” / “out of the world”); unpardonable in the spirit world but pardonable only after one suffers as the Lord did (after the resurrection / “out of the world”).

But even after pardoning (justification), a person may forfeit his sanctification (the cleansing of his spirit) to allow exaltation, or to even progress from kingdom to kingdom. I believe this to be the case since by virtue of suffering for his own sins, such a person has ultimately denied all the mercy and grace that was fully extended.

My understanding is that the idea that “murder is unpardonable” refers to blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, or assent to the murder of the Lord (Matthew 12:32; D&C 132:27). But it also seems to be an impediment to leaving the Telestial Kingdom (D&C 76). So I consider murder as a pardonable but exaltation-preventing sin, but so would any sin for which we opt to suffer for ourselves rather than honor the Christ’s Atonement.

Edited December 5, 2012 by CV75

[thesometimesaint]

There is only one sin that the Atonement can't cover, and that is sin against the Holy Ghost. All others can be repented of. All unrepented of sin must be paid for to the utter most Farthing by the sinner.

[Freedom]

My understanding is that the idea that “murder is unpardonable” refers to blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, or assent to the murder of the Lord (Matthew 12:32; D&C 132:27). But it also seems to be an impediment to leaving the Telestial Kingdom (D&C 76). So I consider murder as a pardonable but exaltation-preventing sin, but so would any sin for which we opt to suffer for ourselves rather than honor the Christ’s Atonement.

The problem with this philosophy is that it makes forgiveness irrelevant because whether you repent or not, you are still stuck in the same place so why bother repenting?

[thesometimesaint]

Freedom:

God takes everything into consideration including the intents of our hearts.

[Gillebre]

Think about it like this, Stargazer:

Our actions change us, correct? Every choice we make every day of our lives has an effect, for good or ill, some of those choices affect us more than others.

Murder is a very grievous action, and if intentional and/or premeditated, changes one greatly, in my opinion.

The thing about forgiveness is this: we cannot receive it if we do not sincerely seek it.

Someone who has made the conscious decision to take the life from another is very unlikely to sincerely seek forgiveness, for many reasons, of which is the change their actions bring in them.

So, bottom line, from my perspective: Murder can in fact be forgiven, and the sin washed away, through the grace and Atonement of Jesus Christ. However, it can only do so if the offender sincerely seeks it and does everything possible to make restitution, be that jail time, or what have you. Just my two cents.

[Walden]

According to D&C 42:79, murder is an unpardonable sin.

What about Nephi then? He murdered Laban, stabbing to death a drunken, defenseless man, though there may be an exclusion clause when one is commanded to commit murder by an angel.

[Gillebre]

What about Nephi then? He murdered Laban, stabbing to death a drunken, defenseless man, though there may be an exclusion clause when one is commanded to commit murder by an angel.

unsanctioned murder

[CV75]

The problem with this philosophy is that it makes forgiveness irrelevant because whether you repent or not, you are still stuck in the same place so why bother repenting?

The reason for repenting, or turning to the Savior for justification and sanctification, would be to avoid: sin, remaining proud, suffering for one’s own sins, and forfeiting the benefits of His atonement.

Some people obviously do not avoid sin; they remain proud and independent of Christ, and so end up suffering for their own sins, forfeiting the ultimate benefits of His atonement, regardless of how pardoned / forgiven / justified they may become by virtue of their own suffering. They haven't repented of the pride that eventually resulted in their suffering; they are stuck with that. Such a person cannot be fully sanctified (exalted) because the Holy Ghost cannot work with someone who does not love the Lord with sufficient heart, might, mind and strength to become fully clean.

[treeface]

Treeface, you need to read D&C 76:85, hell is temporary for those who will inherit the Telestial Kingdom. The telestial kingdom is not Hell.

Are you saying that "spirit prison" = "hell"?

edit: I just saw your subsequent post. Hmmm, you may be right. I'll have to think about it some.

Edited December 5, 2012 by treeface

[rongo]

True story,

I had an investigator who had committed murder and wanted to be baptized. He was interviewed by the mission president and required a written letter of approval from the first presidency. I was transferred before the approval came, last I heard, he had not been accepted for baptism but required further preparation. I'm not sure if he eventually did get baptized. But, my mission president assured me that he could be baptized with approval, washing him clean and acceptable before the Lord.

There was an investigator in my mission (Germany Hamburg, 1994-1996) who confessed to murder. He was interviewed by the mission president, and then First Presidency authorization was obtained, and he was baptized. I think it's really case-by-case, and there is revelation through the keys of the President of the Church involved (binding and loosing on heaven and earth). Same with restoration of blessings for the dead ----- if the FP authorizes it, they direct workers in the Salt Lake Temple to perform this ordinance on behalf of the dead. This is pending in our ward (a sister's mother was excommunicated and rebaptized, but died before having her blessings restored. She was concerned because her mom wasn't active in the Church, and she wondered if she is lost forever. I believe that the FP decision isn't "luck of the draw," but rather, involves obtaining the mind and will of God).

As far as potential forgiveness for murder, I believe that the atonement covers everything. It will be much harder for a murderer to be exalted, but I am one who strongly believes in progression between kingdoms. Just a couple of weeks ago, I sent my uncle some scans from my 1st edition Articles of Faith, where Elder Talmage expressed this view (this no longer appears in AoF):

I like how B.H. Roberts explained this: it is possible, but very difficult. People who won't get with the program here on earth are not likely to suddenly do it in the hereafter ----- same spirit rises with us in the resurrection, etc.

“The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered unto by those of the terrestrial_that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser glory. I can conceive of no reason for all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father's children along the lines of eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the celestial glory_having before them the privilege also of eternal progress_have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement. Thus: Those whose faith and works are such only as to enable them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to enable them to entrance into the celestial kingdom_they may arrive where these were, but never where they are.”

(New Witnesses for God 1: 391-392)

[DavidB]

Are you saying that "spirit prison" = "hell"?

edit: I just saw your subsequent post. Hmmm, you may be right. I'll have to think about it some.

It is my understanding that a part of spirit prison is hell.

Edited December 5, 2012 by DavidB

[thesometimesaint]

rongo:

I don't believe that progression between kingdoms is possible. We are Resurrected into Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial bodies as well as Kingdoms. We are inseparably connected to those bodies and Kingdoms. God in his infinite wisdom and mercy has rewarded us for the type of people we have become. He wants all his children to be happy. To put a Telestial body onto a Celestial being is a contradiction in terms.

[rongo]

You're not alone. Other prophets and apostles did believe it and have taught it, however. This is an open question within Mormonism, and Mormons can (and do) have different views on it.

[rongo]

Was my scan of a page removed? I can't see it on my computer.

[thesometimesaint]

You're not alone. Other prophets and apostles did believe it and have taught it, however. This is an open question within Mormonism, and Mormons can (and do) have different views on it.

I'm OK with that.

[rongo]

What do you think of Roberts' rationale, that "ministering" from the higher kingdoms to the lower kingdoms makes no sense if they can't make progress. What is the point of "ministering" at all if things are set, worlds without end?

[BCSpace]

Alma 39:6—In What Sense Is Murder Forgivable?

Elder Bruce R. McConkie taught: “Murderers are forgiven eventually but only in the sense that all sins are forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; they are not forgiven in the sense that celestial salvation is made available to them” (Mormon Doctrine, 520).

Elder Spencer W. Kimball, then a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, explained:

“John wrote that ‘no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.’ [1 John 3:15.] The murderer denies himself salvation in the celestial kingdom, and in this sense he cannot be forgiven for his crime. …

“Of course, the laws both of the land and of God recognize a great difference between murder or willful slaughter and manslaughter which was not premeditated. Likewise men unfortunately must take others’ lives in war” (The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 127, 129).

Book of Mormon Student Study Guide - Alma 39: The Serious Nature of Sexual Sin

[Calm]

Was my scan of a page removed? I can't see it on my computer.

I see it.

[rongo]

Must be my computer then. I wasn't sure if posting it violated anything . . .

[thesometimesaint]

What do you think of Roberts' rationale, that "ministering" from the higher kingdoms to the lower kingdoms makes no sense if they can't make progress. What is the point of "ministering" at all if things are set, worlds without end?

I believe there is progression within kingdoms. If someone can accept A-B-C but not D they are rewarded for accepting A-B-C. To accept X-Y-Z would be beyond their ability.

[pogi]

Question for pogi: Why would the Lord "remember [the sins of the repentant] no more"?

I interpret this to mean that he will not dwell on, or sorrow over our sins any more. It would be interesting to look at the text in its original language and study the word that was used for "remember" to gain a better understanding of what was intended.

[CV75]

What do you think of Roberts' rationale, that "ministering" from the higher kingdoms to the lower kingdoms makes no sense if they can't make progress. What is the point of "ministering" at all if things are set, worlds without end?

I think “ministering” is an act of love, service and greatness that people of higher kingdoms tend to do, and which people of lower kingdoms tend to rely upon.

[Pandorian]

It probably depends on the circumstances and the mental state of the person involved, ie., premeditated or heat of the moment snapping. Either is bad.

I understand where you are coming from. I had someone who I was very close to murdered, and I know it is up to God to pardon or not pardon the person who murdered my friend. However, I will admit that it wasn't good for me as I spent a good time contemplating how nice it would be to get my hands around the neck of the () and throttle them until they also died, or do them great torture. Keeping the anger though was doing me more harm than them. They were in jail for life anyways, so what more could I do.

I don't know for me though if that's enough justice, but I have had to 'forgive' in my own way to go on with my life.

[pogi]

but I have had to 'forgive' in my own way to go on with my life.

Wow Pandorian you are my hero! I think that this is the better question: Is murder an unpardonable sin for us?

"I the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive (no need to speculate), but of you it is required to forgive all men."

This is perhaps the most difficult and most rewarding requirement that God demands of us.

Edited December 6, 2012 by pogi