Why The Need To Do This?

[Calm]

You know as well as I do that having a beard is strongly discouraged (not to mention BYU codes).

Depends on the people involved. In the 20 plus years my husband has been wearing a beard and serving on high councils, he has only been required once to shave it 'as a test of obedience' for me because I was stupid enough to ask without it being brought up if my husband could keep his beard because I loved it so much. No one else has even discussed it with him. Edited September 18, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

I am still trying to get this stated clearly.

You are saying modesty creates lust. Is that what you are saying?

So we should all go naked, and that way we will do away with lust. Is that the general point? What IS the point, without innuendo, without nuance and without conflicting statements?

To me this underlines the fact that women and men are totally different. It seems that the women here understand each other well enough to agree or disagree whereas the men remain clueless as to what is even being discussed.

It could very well be just me- but I would love to have at least one clean and clear statement of a thesis here.

Not really, I am confused as well.

[Calm]

Did you ever see a picture of Brigham Young? Did you maybe notice a beard?

So what's your point??

BY didn't have a beard when he was younger. Styles change over time even back then.

[KevinG]

Ditto on everything you said! Just wanted to add a link about a BYU coed that was passed a note on campus that her outfit wasn't appropiate. This is what I mean when I say that it sometimes gets out of hand.

http://thestudentreview.org/?p=3618

When this came up before I could think of many commandments the note passer broke but none that the co-ed did.

[The Nehor]

This issue is not going to go away- it is part of being human, and where we draw the line is subject to custom and fashion. It used to be controversial for women to show their ankles, and now if you DON'T wear a dress above the ankles, you look weird.

The issue is never going away- it's just a question of where we draw the line, so in my never humble opinion, we can argue about where the line is, but that will be different six months from now anyway, so why bother?

Actually it is going to go away......once this life is over. The one prety in-depth description we have of an angel in scripture (Moroni) shows that they do not care about modesty as we see it there and furthermore the whole anything the garment covers must stay covered line is for time only.

That is assuming our strange concept of 'modesty' even means anything in the eternities. I suspect it doesn't.

[Calm]

When this came up before I could think of many commandments the note passer broke but none that the co-ed did.

And the fact that this was newsworthy on BYU's campus indicates it is not typical behaviour.

I was involved in a couple of group therapy groups at BYU as part of my clinical psych coursework. The first group of 20 were all healthy, 'normal' kids, we had a lot of fun together and were like an extended family the semester we were together. The second group I was in was totally off kilter due to the presence of one young man with significant issues. He was someone who I can see doing something like this because he himself was troubled by constant inappropriate thoughts and tried to control them by going completely the other way of total suppression. Didn't get to know him well enough to figure out which came first, the obsession or the oppression.

BYU did not give mental or emotional health tests to get into. Just like other universities, it has its share of troubled individuals including some obsessed with sex unfortunately. I don't know about today, but my understanding when I attended was that it was still much safer for women than many campuses out there (due to the lack of alcohol for one thing) though we were warned that very reputation attached some sickos from other places.

Edited September 18, 2012 by calmoriah

[The Nehor]

BYU did not give mental or emotional health tests to get into. Just like other universities, it has its share of troubled individuals including some obsessed with sex unfortunately. I don't know about today, but my understanding when I attended was that it was still much safer for women than many campuses out there (due to the lack of alcohol for one thing) though we were warned that very reputation attached some sickos from other places.

This is the case. The stories my female friends have told me about LDS Singles chat sites are weird and disturbing.

[blackstrap]

Sexual assault is a crime of opportunity and is coupled with a desire for power over a weaker subject.

Two cars are parked a block apart.One is a new BMW coupe that is lock and alarmed.The other is a new Mustang convertible with the top down and the engine running. A car thief wanders by.

Two women are walking a few minutes apart down a street.One is dressed conservatively ,walks briskly,carries her keys between her fingers and has mace is her purse. The other is in short shorts,tank top and stilletto heels and is a bit 'under the weather'. A rapist watches them both from the shadows.

What should happen and what will likely happen in each case?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

During a Primary Program yesterday in Sacrament meeting, a darling 1st grade girl got up on the stand and sang a song (so precious) and wearing a sleeveless sun dress. It made me think of the article I posted below and I became frustrated at the thought that some people would sexualize a child.

Why?

[KevinG]

Sexual assault is a crime of opportunity and is coupled with a desire for power over a weaker subject.

Two cars are parked a block apart.One is a new BMW coupe that is lock and alarmed.The other is a new Mustang convertible with the top down and the engine running. A car thief wanders by.

Two women are walking a few minutes apart down a street.One is dressed conservatively ,walks briskly,carries her keys between her fingers and has mace is her purse. The other is in short shorts,tank top and stilletto heels and is a bit 'under the weather'. A rapist watches them both from the shadows.

What should happen and what will likely happen in each case?

Hopefully an alert Saint and open carry permit holder would offer to walk them to their vehicle.

[Robert F. Smith]

And to think if the parents were following the rules, the kid would never have been humiliated. That's the real part of the story, is it not? That the parents put their kid in that dress knowing there was a dress code that has existed forever. Reminds me of the parents who are shocked when their kids play violent video games, only to find the parent bought the game in the first place.

We had a guy show up in our ward in Southern California wearing a T-shirt and jeans. We all treated him the same as if he had on a suit. That's what the Savior would have wanted, and we delivered. That young man had a wife and children in our ward, and we were always overjoyed to see him. That's the Gospel, happy.

CFR this imaginary "dress code that has existed forever."

Edited September 19, 2012 by Robert F. Smith

[KevinG]

I doubt Happy can answer that CFR his profile shows him in the Banned group.

[Robert F. Smith]

Sexual assault is a crime of opportunity and is coupled with a desire for power over a weaker subject.

Two cars are parked a block apart.One is a new BMW coupe that is lock and alarmed.The other is a new Mustang convertible with the top down and the engine running. A car thief wanders by.

Two women are walking a few minutes apart down a street.One is dressed conservatively ,walks briskly,carries her keys between her fingers and has mace is her purse. The other is in short shorts,tank top and stilletto heels and is a bit 'under the weather'. A rapist watches them both from the shadows.

What should happen and what will likely happen in each case?

Victimology says that anyone who seems weak, infirm, or blissfully unaware can become a mark. It has nothing to do with the clothing worn, or not worn, because (in the case of rape) the crime has nothing to do with sex -- except as a means of domination and humiliation. It is an act of violence. 80-year-old grandmothers get raped. The rapist is a typically immature and angry sociopath, often impotent, has never learned to deal effectively with other people, and is a recidivist.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Robert F. Smith

[Calm]

Hopefully an alert Saint and open carry permit holder would offer to walk them to their vehicle.

I was hoping more for something along the lines of the second potential victim being an undercover cop who beats him soundly as he resists arrest.

[Damien the Leper]

I'm afraid that the poster Tracy M has it exactly backwards. Society does NOT have a puritanical obsession with bodies and hasn't for decades. The entire advertising world spends its energy trying to sexualize almost any product. If they could they would use young children in as provocative a way as possible. Those who complain about modesty in dress as infringing on their freedoms have no clue about the real world. Recently there was a big fuss made because someone suggested that one way to avoid sexual harrassment or even attack,would be to NOT dress like a street walker. Oh how the rights folks jumped on that suggestion.One wonk even said that a woman should be able to walk naked down any street without fear of attack. In theory that could be true,but in reality it would be foolish. These people still lock their houses and cars.Why?Theoretically they should not have to.In reality it is a very wise precaution and a good habit to get into.

The problem with this post, blackstrap, is that Tracy M. is not addressing general society but the society and culture of the church.

[Damien the Leper]

From what I can tell, Tacenda is simply looking for even the least reason to sneer at the Church and/or its members, presumably to feel better about herself. If so, then consistency tends to be against this objective and is too oft set aside.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Typical...play the victim card.

I don't get this at all from Tacenda's OP. It would seem that those who assume there is an underlying agenda are, in fact, the one's promoting the real agenda.

[sunstoned]

And to think if the parents were following the rules, the kid would never have been humiliated. That's the real part of the story, is it not? That the parents put their kid in that dress knowing there was a dress code that has existed forever. Reminds me of the parents who are shocked when their kids play violent video games, only to find the parent bought the game in the first place.

What rules are you talking about? It seems that all to often that a by product of religious dogma is judgement.

[volgadon]

What rules are you talking about? It seems that all to often that a by product of religious dogma is judgement.

I dunno, some people manage it just fine without religion.

[sweetpotatoh]

And to think if the parents were following the rules, the kid would never have been humiliated. That's the real part of the story, is it not? That the parents put their kid in that dress knowing there was a dress code that has existed forever. Reminds me of the parents who are shocked when their kids play violent video games, only to find the parent bought the game in the first place.

It is interesting isn't it? My daughter who is twelve went to church in a sleeveless dress, she forgot her sweater she wears over it. I mentioned to her that her YW leader might have something to say about wearing it without the sweater. She said she didn't think the leaders would comment. I felt it was appropriate for her to exercise her free agency and I pointed out that it was contrary to church standards but she is free to choose for herself. The leaders pointed out the standards in class, by reading a letter written by the stake in regards to modest clothing. My daughter was embarrassed. The leaders also sent out a copy of the letter by email and mentioned that some of the girls were dressed inappropriately. They didn't single out individual girls, they didn't mention any names yet they held the girls responsible and they also encouraged parents to encourage their daughters to dress appropriately .

It was a valuable lesson for my daughter. She was warned and allowed to choose and then had to face the consequences of her actions. She has remembered to dress appropriately at church since. The great thing was that there was no drama involved.

She also knows that her leaders love her.

[KevinG]

Typical...play the victim card.

I don't get this at all from Tacenda's OP. It would seem that those who assume there is an underlying agenda are, in fact, the one's promoting the real agenda.

I don't think Tacenda has an agenda so much as she spends an inordinate amount of time surfing the anti-Mormon and critic-Mormon sites looking for questions to answer. I used to do that but eventually realized that wallowing in the products of critics, antis and other discontented individuals and groups wasn't getting me any nearer to the truth. I now have a healthy skepticism of the skeptics and find with a little research and a smidgen of context most of the shocking secrets of Mormonism aren't really secret and aren't so shocking.

[mfbukowski]

Actually it is going to go away......once this life is over. The one prety in-depth description we have of an angel in scripture (Moroni) shows that they do not care about modesty as we see it there and furthermore the whole anything the garment covers must stay covered line is for time only.

That is assuming our strange concept of 'modesty' even means anything in the eternities. I suspect it doesn't.

Well remember Adam and Eve didn't even know they were naked until they ate of the fruit. Again- the power of words- Satan giving us the definition of "naked" just as he gave us the definition of "sin" and "death".

Hopefully those words will be forgotten in the resurrection, and so we will think differently, and have no need for those concepts, except for teaching our children as we must here.

[mfbukowski]

Hopefully an alert Saint and open carry permit holder would offer to walk them to their vehicle.

Not in California. Jerry Brown would fly down from Sacramento to protect her. The Government Provides All here in the Golden State.

All but such permits, that is. We are not allowed to protect ourselves, we all just call Jerry.

[KevinG]

Not in California. Jerry Brown would fly down from Sacramento to protect her. The Government Provides All here in the Golden State.

All but such permits, that is. We are not allowed to protect ourselves, we all just call Jerry.

We are a little less progressive around here... http://rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm

[mfbukowski]

We had a guy show up in our ward in Southern California wearing a T-shirt and jeans. We all treated him the same as if he had on a suit. That's what the Savior would have wanted, and we delivered. That young man had a wife and children in our ward, and we were always overjoyed to see him. That's the Gospel, happy.

CFR this imaginary "dress code that has existed forever."

This is pretty routine for us the first time an investigator shows up since T-shirts and jeans are what others in our area routinely wear to church, and the women wear slacks or sun-dresses. After all, they are supposed to wear a dress, right? Typically no one tells them about bare shoulders.

In fact, dressing like this makes you instantly recognizable as an investigator and so people are extra-nice to folks who show up dressed that way

Then we get the occasional tourist visitor family from Utah on their way to Disneyland, dressed to the nines with all their blonde children in tow, perfectly dressed as well. The membership in So Cal is growing increasingly Hispanic, so these kinds of visitors are instantly recognizable. In my ward, for the most part, you either have black hair or grey hair, or are transitioning from one to the other.

But we even welcome well-dressed blondes and redheads anyway, without discrimination !

[mfbukowski]

We are a little less progressive around here... http://rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm

Grrrr.

My wife won't let me move!