Why The Need To Do This?

[mfbukowski]

The Church has no dress code for attending services. We gladly and happily take people however they come. I currently serve in the bishopric in my ward, and I have facial hair. Our primary music person wears nice pants to church. It's never crossed my mind to ask her why since I'm sure she has her reasons. What I care about is that she attends and serves faithfully and cheerfully. On any given Sunday, a good half-dozen of our men will be wearing skirts and thongs. In the warmer months, many of our primary boys will show up in shorts and knee socks. Some of them will show up barefoot. We follow prophetic counsel exactly by recommending that our deacons and priests wear white shirts and ties but not requiring them. A short while ago, the bread was blessed by a boy wearing his father's plaid flannelette shirt, several sizes too big for him. What we care about is his worthiness, not whether someone in his home got the washing done. A few weeks ago, we had a man show up during sacrament meeting wearing jeans and a T-shirt. Upon entering the chapel, he knelt down and genuflected, and then he did it again upon turning the corner into the aisle. One of the couples in the ward slid over and made space for him in their pew. That's what Saints do.

I'm moving.

[mfbukowski]

Gotcha. On every level, this problem could have been avoided if your bishop had simply followed the guidelines. Sorry you had to experience that!

Dang bishops.

Where do they get off being human?

[KevinG]

A few weeks ago, we had a man show up during sacrament meeting wearing jeans and a T-shirt. Upon entering the chapel, he knelt down and genuflected, and then he did it again upon turning the corner into the aisle.

Poor guy was probably wondering where the crucifix or icon was.

[why me]

During a Primary Program yesterday in Sacrament meeting, a darling 1st grade girl got up on the stand and sang a song (so precious) and wearing a sleeveless sun dress. It made me think of the article I posted below and I became frustrated at the thought that some people would sexualize a child. I was glad this mother didn't see anything wrong with the dress her daughter wore.

It's like that Coppertone commerical many years ago with the dog pulling on the little girls swimsuit bottom and it shows her tan. No one was shocked at that. Maybe if it was a woman, yeah then that might be offensive.

I've read accounts of this happening in church, one where a young woman was pulled aside by her YW leader and told that her dress was inappropiate because her dress didn't have sleeves, and this young lady went home in tears.

http://bycommonconse...-is-a-bad-idea/

I think that people can take the modesty idea rather far. Nothing wrong with a child on a hot day wearing a sleevless sun dress. It is comfortable for the child and that is what is important. Now for young women it may be just a little different. What I see happening is the H&M effect. Young women dressing in H&M style at church. I see tight skirts, tight dresses, sleeveless tops, short skirts etc. Now it doesn't bother me at all. But it does signify changing times when it comes to definitions of modesty. Many bishops do not interfere because they are afraid that the young women would no longer attend. The young women president was out of line with pulling the young woman out and telling her her dress is not right for a sunday. It is the parents responsibility.

But certainly the H&M effect can be seen among the young women.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Dang bishops.

Where do they get off being human?

Being human I'm fine with. (In fact, I think I've mastered the art of it.)

Doing damage to the Kingdom of God because one is either too lazy to read the instruction manuals or too set in one's ways (or the traditions of the fathers) to actually follow them doesn't sit so well with me. In such circumstances, we certainly reap what we sow.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[why me]

The Church has no dress code for attending services. We gladly and happily take people however they come. I currently serve in the bishopric in my ward, and I have facial hair. Our primary music person wears nice pants to church. It's never crossed my mind to ask her why since I'm sure she has her reasons. What I care about is that she attends and serves faithfully and cheerfully. On any given Sunday, a good half-dozen of our men will be wearing skirts and thongs. In the warmer months, many of our primary boys will show up in shorts and knee socks. Some of them will show up barefoot. We follow prophetic counsel exactly by recommending that our deacons and priests wear white shirts and ties but not requiring them. A short while ago, the bread was blessed by a boy wearing his father's plaid flannelette shirt, several sizes too big for him. What we care about is his worthiness, not whether someone in his home got the washing done. A few weeks ago, we had a man show up during sacrament meeting wearing jeans and a T-shirt. Upon entering the chapel, he knelt down and genuflected, and then he did it again upon turning the corner into the aisle. One of the couples in the ward slid over and made space for him in their pew. That's what Saints do.

I think that much depends on location. If one lives on the islands, much can be made of shorts etc. However, if one lives in NYC, shorts would not be recommended for church services. One reason for this is that it would be looked upon as culturally informal. Back in the day, and this is 20 or so years ago, that we were encouraged to wear our best to church whatever that may be. And to remember that we are at church, worshiping God.

[why me]

Being human I'm fine with. (In fact, I think I've mastered the art of it.)

Doing damage to the Kingdom of God because one is either too lazy to read the instruction manuals or too set in one's ways (or the traditions of the fathers) to actually follow them doesn't sit so well with me. In such circumstances, we certainly reap what we sow.

I remember that the catholic church had lowered their dress code for church. People were coming to church in shorts and tank tops. No modesty among the ladies or men. When I was a boy we wore our best clothing for church.Then in the late sixties early seventies it changed. But the church discovered that it wasn't good for the Mass. So, there was encouragement for a little more modesty but still one can go to Mass as one pleases. But it should be presentable because one is in the home of god.

Edited September 20, 2012 by why me

[Hamba Tuhan]

Poor guy was probably wondering where the crucifix or icon was.

He seemed to cope without just fine. Several times during the talks, he knelt in the pew, rested his forehead on the one in front of him, and presumably prayed. At the end of the service, he again knelt in the aisle and genuflected before he left. I sincerely hope he got what he needed.

We have an old woman who comes very early on Sunday mornings (I was once early enough to see her) and lights votive candles outside the front doors of our chapel for us. Our stake president leaves them burning during his presidency meetings because he wants her to feel appreciated. Afterward, they just collect and dispose of the spent candles. Occasionally she will slip an envelope under the door with a small donation to help our cause.

The last branch I belonged to in Indonesia had a female dog with pups who came to sacrament meeting every week. She would carry her puppies up the ladder into our chapel one at at time and then lie down quietly for the entire service as the little ones suckled. As soon as we'd say amen to the closing prayer, she'd carry them back down the ladder one at a time and then disappear into the jungle. None of the members had a clue whose dog it was, but she knew where she wanted to be each Sabbath morning.

[Calm]

The last branch I belonged to in Indonesia had a female dog with pups who came to sacrament meeting every week. She would carry her puppies up the ladder into our chapel one at at time and then lie down quietly for the entire service as the little ones suckled. As soon as we'd say amen to the closing prayer, she'd carry them back down the ladder one at a time and then disappear into the jungle. None of the members had a clue whose dog it was, but she knew where she wanted to be each Sabbath morning.

If anything were to cause me to believe in reincarnation, that would.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Back in the day, and this is 20 or so years ago, that we were encouraged to wear our best to church whatever that may be. And to remember that we are at church, worshiping God.

Mate, we still encourage our members to wear their best to church -- and specifically to dress in a way which does not call attention to itself or distract others (a pretty good definition of modest if you think about it). We also teach our youth and adults the clear and inspired standards in For the Strength of Youth. Then we let them govern themselves. It seems to work for us. I'm willing to admit that we've got a pretty great ward full of people who overwhelmingly want to do good things.

[Tacenda]

I remember that the catholic church had lowered their dress code for church. People were coming to church in shorts and tank tops. No modesty among the ladies or men. When I was a boy we wore our best clothing for church.Then in the late sixties early seventies it changed. But the church discovered that it wasn't good for the Mass. So, there was encouragement for a little more modesty but still one can go to Mass as one pleases. But it should be presentable because one is in the home of god.

Why Me I agree with this. I believe one should wear their best for the Lord if at all possible. And if circumstances won't allow it, I think the Lord understands and is happy to see you there.

About your previous post on modesty and the youth, that one is an interesting dilemma too. I know that the church is very concerned that we're losing the young single adult crowd and it seems that alot are joining the secularists. But I feel they will come to realise the error of their ways.

As you well know, many of them are in rebellion stage. When I think about it now, I do see a trend towards skanky looking clothing. Hopefully fashion will change back to a more sophisticated and modest look.

Think back on the 20's or 30's, I think they were the "flapper girls", and some of what women wore, shown in films, weren't very modest too.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

I believe one should wear their best for the Lord if at all possible. And if circumstances won't allow it, I think the Lord understands and is happy to see you there.

Absolutely!

Two years ago, a couple of our priests made the decision that, although they were playing rugby on Sunday, they would still come to whatever church they could. This meant that, as soon as their match ended, they hopped in the car and drove straight to the chapel for the final 30-35 minutes of church, missing priesthood opening exercises (as well as the earlier sacrament meeting and Sunday school class) but arriving in time for most of priests quorum class. Of necessity, they showed up in their rugby gear, often with a bit of mud and/or blood. Had they taken the time to go home first, shower, and put on 'church clothes,' there wouldn't have been any church for them to partake of by the time they got back.

Bishop and I, naturally, were impressed by their faithfulness and let them know it. A certain couple in our ward, however, were not -- and decided they had the right to tell these boys that they were disrespecting the Lord by showing up that way. Needless to say, both boys were gutted. Here they were, trying their best to please God, and someone had accused them of insulting Him instead. Thankfully, one of the boys let me know what had been said and how it made them feel. With Bishop's authorisation, I visited the offending family and discussed the situation. Then we spoke to both boys and let them know that, though the Lord would prefer they didn't play sport on Sundays, He was very much pleased to have them show up and participate in their quorum.

At the beginning of last year, one of the boys (who was playing under pressure from his inactive parents) independently made the decision that he wouldn't do it anymore. It caused him about six months of hell at home, during which time his parents refused to talk to him, but he endured that, and as of today, he's been on his mission for five weeks. What a tragedy it would have been if someone had convinced these boys that God would have preferred them not to come to church at all!

[mfbukowski]

Being human I'm fine with. (In fact, I think I've mastered the art of it.)

Doing damage to the Kingdom of God because one is either too lazy to read the instruction manuals or too set in one's ways (or the traditions of the fathers) to actually follow them doesn't sit so well with me. In such circumstances, we certainly reap what we sow.

If you have never been a bishop you can't know how busy those last few minutes before Sacrament meeting can be.

These are probably some of the things running through the Bishop's mind:

"Changes to the program- what's that hymn number? - are the speakers here? Who can we get to speak if brother x doesn't show up? What no bread? Who was supposed to bring it? Sister Jones wants to see me RIGHT NOW? Where's that paperwork for blessing the baby? Does the brother from the other ward doing the blessing have a temple recommend? Young men's president asks if someone can pass the sacrament in jeans- Uh- would you please handle that yourself?"

Etc.

It's not necessarily that we are too lazy to read the instruction manuals. And even if you had, who can recall what it said on page 254 in subsection 4a, especially under pressure with 93 other things going on at once?

And shouldn't one be able to delegate to the young men's president to handle such a thing? He brought one more thing to the bishop's plate which he should have handled himself.

We all do the best we can- we have to presume that. As Elder Bednar has said, we are all here learning together and trying not to offend but sometimes it happens. It's part of life. The situation was no one's fault. It was not the president's fault, it was not the bishop's fault, it was not the young man's fault. Everyone there was trying to do their best, sometimes unfortunate things just happen and we all have to deal with that.

I think life in the USA is quite a bit busier than where you live. I think where you live is probably a wonderful place to live, but I think if 350 million people decided to live there, it would no longer be such.

Besides, I don't think you would be so happy if we all moved there! You are very lucky!

[sdc999]

And shouldn't one be able to delegate to the young men's president to handle such a thing? He brought one more thing to the bishop's plate which he should have handled himself.

For the record, I didn't bring it to the attention of the bishop. I was perfectly oblivious to the fact that this great kid was "less worthy" than the other youth until the bishop approached me.

[mfbukowski]

For the record, I didn't bring it to the attention of the bishop. I was perfectly oblivious to the fact that this great kid was "less worthy" than the other youth until the bishop approached me.

Well good for you. Maybe he WAS less worthy and you didn't know and it had nothing to do with the clothes. Or maybe genuinely the bishop messed up. It could have been that the bishop had just delivered a lesson the previous week on dressing properly for passing the sacrament, or perhaps a direct request to the individual involved, or felt it was important to reinforce the idea to the deacons, or who knows.

Or maybe he just plain messed up. It happens all the time and I am not about to say it doesn't!

I guess all I am saying is that we shouldn't judge the guy since he is the only one who knows exactly what he was thinking, or not thinking about. That's why we usually leave judgement to God!

I'm sorry you had a bad experience around that whole incident.

[sdc999]

Well good for you. Maybe he WAS less worthy and you didn't know and it had nothing to do with the clothes. Or maybe genuinely the bishop messed up. It could have been that the bishop had just delivered a lesson the previous week on dressing properly for passing the sacrament, or perhaps a direct request to the individual involved, or felt it was important to reinforce the idea to the deacons, or who knows.

Or maybe he just plain messed up. It happens all the time and I am not about to say it doesn't!

I guess all I am saying is that we shouldn't judge the guy since he is the only one who knows exactly what he was thinking, or not thinking about. That's why we usually leave judgement to God!

I'm sorry you had a bad experience around that whole incident.

I'm not very fond of the "judgement" card. It is often used in the same manner as someone playing the "race" card. Neither are correct. Judging in not always a bad thing. God's judgement is on our eternal salvation to which neither you nor I nor anyone here on earth has the authority but judging one another is a must in society.

Me saying a bishop was wrong in determining a youth's worthiness because of clothes is not unwarranted judgement. You mentioned that he could have 'messed up'. Is a bishop beyond reproach when he errs? Is anyone beyond reproach when they err? Righteous judgement is mentioned in many places in the Bible.

I have a connection to an organization that works soley for the protection of children and judgement is used there every day and I will never shy away from judging someone and calling them out on "messing up" when a child is involved.

Sorry, not really angry but as I have aged and matured, I have grown bolder about protecting children and do not give passes to irresponsible actions from adults directed at children because they are in 'authority' positions.

[Hamba Tuhan]

If you have never been a bishop you can't know how busy those last few minutes before Sacrament meeting can be.

I have never been a bishop, but I've been the counsellor to one for the past six months, and I know precisely what you're talking about. One of my assignments is to plan sacrament meetings each week, and, though it's never happened to me before, this past Sunday we had not one but two speakers who didn't show up. Yikes!

It's not necessarily that we are too lazy to read the instruction manuals. And even if you had, who can recall what it said on page 254 in subsection 4a, especially under pressure with 93 other things going on at once?

Except that we aren't talking about some minor point in subsection 4a here. The issue is the basic organisation and order of priesthood authority. It is not asking too much of a bishop to remember that, when he set the deacons quorum president apart, he bestowed upon that boy priesthood keys (one of only four men in the ward to have them) and the right to preside over his quorum -- including 'the privilege and responsibility to invite others to help pass the sacrament'. The exercise of this responsibility should be occurring every single week in a ward. If it is not, then there is a serious problem with one of the four priesthood quorums therein.

And shouldn't one be able to delegate to the young men's president to handle such a thing?

No, unless you also think a busy bishop should be able to delegate to one of the YSA advisors the task of informing a single elder that he's no longer allowed to go home teaching as part of his elders quorum duties. The Young Men president is a member of an auxilliary (consisting of himself as priests quorum advisor; his counsellors, the teachers and deacons quorum advisors; and any assistant advisors) which holds no priesthood authority and certainly no responsibility over the ordinance of the sacrament. That responsibility rightly belongs to the deacons, teachers, and priests quorum presidencies, under the direction of the bishopric. When I was trained as a new Young Men president by a member of the Young Men general presidency more than six years ago, he told us that getting these things wrong was wreaking havoc on our Aaronic Priesthood holders.

Speaking from personal experience, I can say with certainty that getting them right has made all the difference in our ward. I'm in my tenth year here now. When I was first called to be YM president, we had one deacon who was the only boy who regularly attended Mutual. He and two teachers were our only boys who regularly attended church. We had no organised, functioning Aaronic Priesthood quroums. The previous YM presidency had taken care of the sacrament before I was called, and our then bishop tried to get me to do the same. Having been trained by Bro Burgess from Church headquarters, I refused. Over time, we got our quorums organised and functioning. Our sole active deacon was called to preside over his quorum and was given keys to do so. From that point forward, he became responsible for who passed the sacrament. To help him in that responsibility, we gave him a photocopy of the policies in the handbook.

In all the time I've been in this ward, we hadn't sent a single young man on a mission ... til last month. Our sole deacon from six years ago leaves in November. Two more young men whom he helped to reactivate when he was teachers quorum president are saving to leave on their missions next year. One of them received the Melchizedek Priesthood last month and went with me last night to give a blessing to a single mum in the ward. Amongst the many things we in the bishopric have to worry about in the frantic minutes before sacrament meeting starts each week, we simply don't have to worry about who's preparing, passing, or blessing the sacrament. Our quorum presidencies perform their responsibilities flawlessly, and all according to the policies in the handbook, with which they have become intimately familiar via training.

I think life in the USA is quite a bit busier than where you live.

Oh man, I wish you were right! I worked numerous 14-hour days last month and will face them again with repeated deadlines in October and the first half of November. I'm certain that our bishop would wish for you to be right, too. He works fulltime for the government and then runs a private family-law practice on the side in order to try to support his family without his wife having to work. I fear life is much the same everywhere ... at least everywhere I've been. It's a rich and rewarding life, though, and, as Bishop reminds me, we can both catch up on our sleep in the next life.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

I have grown bolder about protecting children and do not give passes to irresponsible actions from adults directed at children because they are in 'authority' positions.

Two Sundays ago, I assisted our bishop in setting apart our new deacons quorum president. He's a serious, faithful boy who comes to church each week despite the fact that his parents are completely inactive. (His eldest brother is one of the young men mentioned above who is saving to leave on a mission next year.) As second counsellor in the bishopric, I attend deacons quorum meetings, so, after the setting apart, I asked the new president if I could have a few minutes. I then reminded all the boys that, when they're at school, their teachers and principal are in charge. When they are at rugby training, their coaches are in charge. When they are home, their parents are in charge. But when they come to deacons quorum meetings and activities or to the sacrament table, their 13-year-old president is in charge. I repeatedly find it remarkable that God sees fit to give young boys (and girls in the YW classes) positions of great authority. To me, it's one of the great geniuses of the Church.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I think even if there isn't a dress code that states women must wear a dress, peer pressure alone or standing out, would be the deterrant for most women, including myself.

I think you're onto something, Tacenda, when it comes to peer pressure. When I was in America several years ago, I visited the Museum of Church History and Art. My favourite display included a number of Brigham Young's journals open to interesting pages. On one, he had sketched a woman wearing somewhat frilly pants. The display explained that the prophet had grown wearing of watching women trudge around in the muddy streets of SLC in their dresses and so had called in Eliza R. Snow (the Relief Society president) and suggested she try to get the women to wear something practical like pants instead, reminding her that the Saints could and should set their own fashions. Her response to Brigham was that they wouldn't go for it because they liked wearing 'feminine' clothing and would't want to stand out. In response, he'd drafted what he'd thought were feminine pants. Apparently, the women still didn't buy it. And here we are.

[emeliza]

I have written about this years ago on the board, but I wore my nicest slacks once to church and was called into the Bishops office about it. It was not a pleasant experience and I have never worn pants to church on a Sunday again.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I have written about this years ago on the board, but I wore my nicest slacks once to church and was called into the Bishops office about it.

[Tacenda]

I have written about this years ago on the board, but I wore my nicest slacks once to church and was called into the Bishops office about it. It was not a pleasant experience and I have never worn pants to church on a Sunday again.

I would love to hear the story behind you getting the gumption to wear slacks to church.

[emeliza]

It wasn't even gumption really...it was lack of being prepared so I only had clean slacks...which is what I wear to work. I was a fairly new member...under 2 years for certain, can't remember if I was under 1 year though.

Nowadays there are quite a few women who wear slacks to church and it doesn't appear to be an issue. I don't think the current Bishop would ever call someone in on it.

I will see if I can find the story...

[Tacenda]

It wasn't even gumption really...it was lack of being prepared so I only had clean slacks...which is what I wear to work. I was a fairly new member...under 2 years for certain, can't remember if I was under 1 year though.

Nowadays there are quite a few women who wear slacks to church and it doesn't appear to be an issue. I don't think the current Bishop would ever call someone in on it.

I will see if I can find the story...

Not in my neck of the woods here in Utah (slacks). So that's why in one of my posts I wondered if it's a Utah thing and in other areas of the world not so much....

Edited September 21, 2012 by Tacenda

[emeliza]

I live in Iowa. Women almost always wear skirts or dresses. The few that don't are all converts.