Why The Need To Do This?

[mfbukowski]

It is interesting isn't it? My daughter who is twelve went to church in a sleeveless dress, she forgot her sweater she wears over it. I mentioned to her that her YW leader might have something to say about wearing it without the sweater. She said she didn't think the leaders would comment. I felt it was appropriate for her to exercise her free agency and I pointed out that it was contrary to church standards but she is free to choose for herself. The leaders pointed out the standards in class, by reading a letter written by the stake in regards to modest clothing. My daughter was embarrassed. The leaders also sent out a copy of the letter by email and mentioned that some of the girls were dressed inappropriately. They didn't single out individual girls, they didn't mention any names yet they held the girls responsible and they also encouraged parents to encourage their daughters to dress appropriately .

It was a valuable lesson for my daughter. She was warned and allowed to choose and then had to face the consequences of her actions. She has remembered to dress appropriately at church since. The great thing was that there was no drama involved.

She also knows that her leaders love her.

I know of a case of a young lady who virtually never followed the dress code without the bishop or anyone else saying a word to her about it, because she was active and a great LDS young lady- except for that. Perhaps it was innocence, perhaps her mother didn't care- whatever.

She came to her bishop asking for a recommend to attend BYU, which contains a statement by the bishop that he has interviewed her and that she was already living the standards of the Honor Code - which she was, except for dresses which were well above the knee and which exposed her shoulders. The bishop told her he would sign the letter, but reminded her that she would have to abide by the rules once she was at school. She agreed.

The family stopped speaking to the bishop, except for when directly addressed personally, and started attending another ward. When the bishop visited, they would not discuss the topic and were polite, but distant and somewhat unfriendly.

When the young lady returned from BYU, she always wore appropriate clothing to sacrament meeting.

So was that a "win" or a "loss" for the bishop??

People have their agency and it takes two to offend someone- one who "gives" offense often without intending it, and one who "takes" the offense, freely allowing it to change their behavior toward someone.

We are all human and all make mistakes- the key is to learn how not to "take" offense when it is offered, if it is intended or not. If everyone was perfect we would have been translated long ago.

[divinenature]

Sexual assault is a crime of opportunity and is coupled with a desire for power over a weaker subject.

Two cars are parked a block apart.One is a new BMW coupe that is lock and alarmed.The other is a new Mustang convertible with the top down and the engine running. A car thief wanders by.

Two women are walking a few minutes apart down a street.One is dressed conservatively ,walks briskly,carries her keys between her fingers and has mace is her purse. The other is in short shorts,tank top and stilletto heels and is a bit 'under the weather'. A rapist watches them both from the shadows.

What should happen and what will likely happen in each case?

Whaaat?! What should happen is that a cop grabs the guy from the shadows and asks him what he is doing loitering there.

Rapists tend to seek victims who look unsure, uncomfortable, have low self-esteem, etc. In fact, dressing for the weather and occasion is always best. A woman all covered up in the summer is more likely to get raped than a woman in a little sundress.

It was really nice of you to give the conservatively dressed gal mace.

For this to be a fair comparison you would have to have all variables be the same EXCEPT the clothing. But, you must know that clothing isn't the biggest determining factor in rape which is why you had to include all the other differences. Comparing raping women to stealing vehicles...I can't even.

[mfbukowski]

Mace?

Give her a 45 caliber 1911 in her purse!

Now we're talkin'!

[KevinG]

Elder Holland recently spoke to how we are to treat others who aren't looking or sounding like the typical Saint. Pay close attention to example #2 and his response.

http://www.lds.org/b...d=1831681793001

In short anything we say on an interpersonal level should be designed to "make the situation better". Being insulting or embarrassing others does not do that. Privately correcting or simply being an example and letting others govern themselves are better options.

This does not preclude setting good public examples or fighting for righteous behavior in the public square or portraying the best examples we can.

The issue of photo shopping sleeves on models does not lead to bad behavior towards others. They are two different things.

Edited September 19, 2012 by KevinG

[Tacenda]

I'm derailing somewhat and changing the subject a little. I appreciate the comments thus far and side with dressing appropiately being a great thing. But won't discuss further on that.

I have a question and was hoping some might know the answer. I live in Utah and am aware it's probably different in the mission field.

Here goes....I rarely see women dress in pants or pantsuits to Sacrament meeting. I've seen it happen only once in my life. Is there a dress code specifically that women wear dresses only or is it an unwritten law, so to speak? I know some women that have physical problems that would love to be able to skip wearing a dress. Is this opening a can of worms to allow women to wear pants? Would it lead to wearing jeans, shorts and etc?

Thank you for any feedback.

[KevinG]

Dresses for women and suits, white shirts and ties for men is the fashion. Where this comes from is probably tradition, but I'm curious now.

The Handbook of Instructions Part II says this about those who bless the sacrament:

"Those who bless and pass the sacrament should dress modestly and be well groomed and clean. Clothing or jewelry should not call attention to itself or distract members during the sacrament. Ties and white shirts are recommended because they add to the dignity of the ordinance. However, they should not be required as a mandatory prerequisite for a priesthood holder to participate. Nor should it be required that all be alike in dress and appearance. Bishops should use discretion when giving such guidance to young men, taking into account their financial circumstances and maturity in the Church."

Standards For The Youth says this:

Prophets of God have continually counseled His children to dress modestly. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed, you invite the companionship of the Spirit and you can be a good influence on others. Your dress and grooming influence the way you and others act.

From our What To Expect when visiting an LDS Service page on Mormon.org:

Those who attend will most likely be wearing their "Sunday best," which may include suits, sport coats, and ties for the men and dresses or skirts for the women. Children also typically dress up for Sunday.

Most of the talks and references I could find were about being modest, dressed as you would for a special occasion and (As Elder Oaks taught in his talk about Sacrament Meetings) not to dress in ways to draw attention to ourselves or distract from the services.

I cannot find a single admonition against pants on women but it is a tradition to wear dresses and skirts. I suspect this is somewhat culturally bound and a holdover from recent decades when dress pants and suits for women were not common.

Congratulations Tacenda you just stumped this Mormon apologist!

Edited September 19, 2012 by KevinG

[Tacenda]

Dresses for women and suits, white shirts and ties for men is the fashion. Where this comes from is probably tradition, but I'm curious now.

The Handbook of Instructions Part II says this about those who bless the sacrament:

"Those who bless and pass the sacrament should dress modestly and be well groomed and clean. Clothing or jewelry should not call attention to itself or distract members during the sacrament. Ties and white shirts are recommended because they add to the dignity of the ordinance. However, they should not be required as a mandatory prerequisite for a priesthood holder to participate. Nor should it be required that all be alike in dress and appearance. Bishops should use discretion when giving such guidance to young men, taking into account their financial circumstances and maturity in the Church."

Standards For The Youth says this:

Prophets of God have continually counseled His children to dress modestly. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed, you invite the companionship of the Spirit and you can be a good influence on others. Your dress and grooming influence the way you and others act.

From our What To Expect when visiting an LDS Service page on Mormon.org:

Those who attend will most likely be wearing their "Sunday best," which may include suits, sport coats, and ties for the men and dresses or skirts for the women. Children also typically dress up for Sunday.

Most of the talks and references I could find were about being modest, dressed as you would for a special occasion and (As Elder Oaks taught in his talk about Sacrament Meetings) not to dress in ways to draw attention to ourselves or distract from the services.

I cannot find a single admonition against pants on women but it is a tradition to wear dresses and skirts. I suspect this is somewhat culturally bound and a holdover from recent decades when dress pants and suits for women were not common.

Congratulations Tacenda you just stumped this Mormon apologist!

No that can't be....I usually only stump myself, lol.

IMO, I think even if there isn't a dress code that states women must wear a dress, peer pressure alone or standing out, would be the deterrant for most women, including myself.

[KevinG]

No that can't be....I usually only stump myself, lol.

IMO, I think even if there isn't a dress code that states women must wear a dress, peer pressure alone or standing out, would be the deterrant for most women, including myself.

I agree - From what I can tell its a cultural norm. Although I've seen pant suits much more appropriate for Sacrament meeting than some dresses I've seen worn to church.

[sweetpotatoh]

I know of a case of a young lady who virtually never followed the dress code without the bishop or anyone else saying a word to her about it, because she was active and a great LDS young lady- except for that. Perhaps it was innocence, perhaps her mother didn't care- whatever.

She came to her bishop asking for a recommend to attend BYU, which contains a statement by the bishop that he has interviewed her and that she was already living the standards of the Honor Code - which she was, except for dresses which were well above the knee and which exposed her shoulders. The bishop told her he would sign the letter, but reminded her that she would have to abide by the rules once she was at school. She agreed.

The family stopped speaking to the bishop, except for when directly addressed personally, and started attending another ward. When the bishop visited, they would not discuss the topic and were polite, but distant and somewhat unfriendly.

When the young lady returned from BYU, she always wore appropriate clothing to sacrament meeting.

So was that a "win" or a "loss" for the bishop??

People have their agency and it takes two to offend someone- one who "gives" offense often without intending it, and one who "takes" the offense, freely allowing it to change their behavior toward someone.

We are all human and all make mistakes- the key is to learn how not to "take" offense when it is offered, if it is intended or not. If everyone was perfect we would have been translated long ago.

The bishop didn't win or lose. He was loving in his council and the parents chose offense. I think it is important to let our children make decisions and reap the consequences.

[Calm]

My mother in law got to the point of being confined to a wheelchair where pants were much more appropriate for her to wear than a dress, so those who cared for her took her to church in nice pants. No one said anything that I am aware of. This was in Orem.

[MiserereNobis]

I say, bring back the beards of the first presidents of the LDS church! No more clean shaven corporate looking missionaries! Let's see that facial hair, like Jesus and Brigham Young!

(perhaps I deny Joseph Smith as being a true prophet because he had no beard...)

ETA: oh dear, I notice my profile picture of Pope St. Pius X is clean-shaven...

Edited September 20, 2012 by MiserereNobis

[Calm]

My memory says they stayed pretty clean shaven until they got to a certain age. I bet they just got tired of shaving much like my husband did...but then I fell in love with his beard and he doesn't dare shave it now.

[mfbukowski]

Anything said to anyone which might be offensive to a person acting in "innocence" ie: not knowing the customs, is usually considered inappropriate behavior anywhere.

I'm sure Queen Elizabeth sees breaches of technical etiquette on a daily basis- after all she knows ALL the "rules"- but I am certain she would personally never correct any one who had violated them.

If the Queen wouldn't correct such a person, how would Christ treat them?

We are taught in the temple that if we observe someone doing something out of the ordinary, that it is our job to teach them the usual procedure instead of "correcting" them.

One approach might be to kindly say something like "Probably no one ever told you, but the usual procedure (or 'temple policy') is to do it this way" with a broad smile and a kindly manner.

I think that is more appropriate in the temple where most of us are novices anyway, and are trying to do everything "right" but sometimes miss an instruction or forget something. It happens all the time!

But in the context of correcting someone's dress- I know if I wear jeans to something where people show up in suits, I become VERY aware that I am inappropriately dressed and feel quite self conscious instantly, but put on a brave face and just go ahead, assuming that people will realize that I did not know "better". I think that must be the case with others as well- especially women, I think. If they show up to an affair in pants and see everyone wearing a dress, I think it would be perfectly obvious that they are not appropriately dressed.

On the other hand, many women today do not even OWN a dress. We have seen that many times with investigators- in fact they will often wait to be sure they will be baptized before investing the money to buy one- because if they don't get baptized they will probably never wear it again.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I am sure it is unnecessary ever to correct a perceived "violation" of anything perceived as a dress code.

The person probably already feels out of place as it is.

[mfbukowski]

I say, bring back the beards of the first presidents of the LDS church! No more clean shaven corporate looking missionaries! Let's see that facial hair, like Jesus and Brigham Young!

(perhaps I deny Joseph Smith as being a true prophet because he had no beard...)

ETA: oh dear, I notice my profile picture of Pope St. Pius X is clean-shaven...

Yeah, but we are already considered a cult.

That's all we need- to be a cult and a hippie cult at that!

Actually the guideline is that we should look culturally "conservative". If that means men wearing a dress and a red stove-pipe hat on Mars, that's what we should wear on Mars.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Is there a dress code specifically that women wear dresses only or is it an unwritten law, so to speak?

The Church has no dress code for attending services. We gladly and happily take people however they come. I currently serve in the bishopric in my ward, and I have facial hair. Our primary music person wears nice pants to church. It's never crossed my mind to ask her why since I'm sure she has her reasons. What I care about is that she attends and serves faithfully and cheerfully. On any given Sunday, a good half-dozen of our men will be wearing skirts and thongs. In the warmer months, many of our primary boys will show up in shorts and knee socks. Some of them will show up barefoot. We follow prophetic counsel exactly by recommending that our deacons and priests wear white shirts and ties but not requiring them. A short while ago, the bread was blessed by a boy wearing his father's plaid flannelette shirt, several sizes too big for him. What we care about is his worthiness, not whether someone in his home got the washing done. A few weeks ago, we had a man show up during sacrament meeting wearing jeans and a T-shirt. Upon entering the chapel, he knelt down and genuflected, and then he did it again upon turning the corner into the aisle. One of the couples in the ward slid over and made space for him in their pew. That's what Saints do.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

The Church has no dress code for attending services. We gladly and happily take people however they come. I currently serve in the bishopric in my ward, and I have facial hair. Our primary music person wears nice pants to church. It's never crossed my mind to ask her why since I'm sure she has her reasons. What I care about is that she attends and serves faithfully and cheerfully. On any given Sunday, a good half-dozen of our men will be wearing skirts and thongs. In the warmer months, many of our primary boys will show up in shorts and knee socks. Some of them will show up barefoot. We follow prophetic counsel exactly by recommending that our deacons and priests wear white shirts and ties but not requiring them. A short while ago, the bread was blessed by a boy wearing his father's plaid flannelette shirt, several sizes too big for him. What we care about is his worthiness, not whether someone in his home got the washing done. A few weeks ago, we had a man show up during sacrament meeting wearing jeans and a T-shirt. Upon entering the chapel, he knelt down and genuflected, and then he did it again upon turning the corner into the aisle. One of the couples in the ward slid over and made space for him in their pew. That's what Saints do.

I want to sit at your table of worship. That's just as our Savior would have had it.

[sdc999]

It is interesting isn't it? My daughter who is twelve went to church in a sleeveless dress, she forgot her sweater she wears over it. I mentioned to her that her YW leader might have something to say about wearing it without the sweater. She said she didn't think the leaders would comment. I felt it was appropriate for her to exercise her free agency and I pointed out that it was contrary to church standards but she is free to choose for herself. The leaders pointed out the standards in class, by reading a letter written by the stake in regards to modest clothing. My daughter was embarrassed. The leaders also sent out a copy of the letter by email and mentioned that some of the girls were dressed inappropriately. They didn't single out individual girls, they didn't mention any names yet they held the girls responsible and they also encouraged parents to encourage their daughters to dress appropriately .

It was a valuable lesson for my daughter. She was warned and allowed to choose and then had to face the consequences of her actions. She has remembered to dress appropriately at church since. The great thing was that there was no drama involved.

She also knows that her leaders love her.

I don't think bringing out the standards in class to make a point is always the right thing to do. Kids in that age group are very sensitive and this could have easily gone very badly. Sure, if you want to make a point, pull the child to the side - away from her peers.

I've never sat in a class where it was purposely talked about that the body is a Temple because there were "fat" people sitting there, and yes, there were quite a few in many of my wards. (I'm not talking thyroid problem people, I'm talking double cheeseburger problem people)

I still think back to one of my most shameful periods when I felt pressured to tell a young man that he couldn't pass the sacrament because he wore jeans to church. They were probably the best option that Sunday and he was eons more in tune with the Spirit than the other boys, and the leaders knew it, but it didn't fit the 'dress' they wanted. I should have stood up for him that day and I didn't. I have since apologized to he and his mother.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I still think back to one of my most shameful periods when I felt pressured to tell a young man that he couldn't pass the sacrament because he wore jeans to church. They were probably the best option that Sunday and he was eons more in tune with the Spirit than the other boys, and the leaders knew it, but it didn't fit the 'dress' they wanted. I should have stood up for him that day and I didn't. I have since apologized to he and his mother.

Everything goes better when we follow the handbooks: 'Nor should it be required that all be alike in dress and appearance. Bishops should use discretion when giving such guidance to young men, taking into account their financial circumstances and maturity in the Church'.

I'm a bit confused, though. As a bishopric member, were you being pressured by the deacons quorum leaders or by other members of the bishopric?

[blackstrap]

I went to a funeral last week . Of the several dozens of people there I was one of two dressed in a suit. I was inappropriately dressed.

[sdc999]

Everything goes better when we follow the handbooks: 'Nor should it be required that all be alike in dress and appearance. Bishops should use discretion when giving such guidance to young men, taking into account their financial circumstances and maturity in the Church'.

I'm a bit confused, though. As a bishopric member, were you being pressured by the deacons quorum leaders or by other members of the bishopric?

I was a brand new YMP at the time.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I want to sit at your table of worship.

Well, there's plenty of room for you.

That's just as our Savior would have had it.

Precisely. In ward council this past Sunday, a couple members of the council suggested rather strongly that we needed to bar the doors during the sacrament. I asked them if they could think of a single scripture in all of canon wherein the Lord instructed us to deny the blessings of church attendance to a single mum who's struggled to get her seven children and herself to church on time. In response, one of them said he was quite certain it was in the handbook. To this, the other counsellor in the bishopric wisely suggested that we would resume the conversation whenever this brother might find the relevant passage in one of the handbooks.

I'll say it again: we never go wrong when we do things the Lord's way.

[sdc999]

Sorry. new to the board. New YMP and was approached by the Bishop so I could handle the situation.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I was a brand new YMP at the time.

Now I'm even more confused. Who exactly was telling you as Young Men president to intervene in sacrament arrangements? From the handbook: 'Under the direction of the bishopric, priesthood holders bless the sacrament and pass it to members of the congregation during each sacrament meeting. Aaronic Priesthood holders usually perform these duties. Under the direction of the bishopric, the deacons quorum president has the privilege and responsibility to invite others to help pass the sacrament. When there are not enough deacons, he counsels with a member of the bishopric to determine who may be asked to assist'.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Sorry. new to the board.

Welcome!

New YMP and was approached by the Bishop so I could handle the situation.

Gotcha. On every level, this problem could have been avoided if your bishop had simply followed the guidelines. Sorry you had to experience that!

[ERayR]

My memory says they stayed pretty clean shaven until they got to a certain age. I bet they just got tired of shaving much like my husband did...but then I fell in love with his beard and he doesn't dare shave it now.

It is good then that he can stand it. I grew a beard once and my wife liked it but in all the months that I had that beard it never stopped itching my face. I finally shaved it off. I really do wish I could grow a beard as I really hate to shave.