A Wrathful God

[why me]

Actually, I do see evidence of that kind of kindness coming from Jesus, all over the New Testament. The adulteress, who was to be stoned. The many, many people who were healed (and some of them didn't even say "thank you"...like the several lepers he healed). The woman with an issue of blood. Martha, who was judgmental. Even his disciples, who were, at times, skeptics, afraid and even denied him. And, last of all, he asked Heavenly Father to forgive those who had caused him so much pain (for they know not what they do). So, yes, I see a very loving and kind God, in Jesus.

I think that you are right about the new testament. But I also see paul attempting to lead the early saints in the ways of jesus. And I don't think he told the saints to live like a pagan because god is merciful. I believe that god's mercy is shown in many instances but I am not so sure if he is that merciful with sin. For example, if I am a fornicator and I know that it is wrong but I believe in a merciful god who will forgive me my sins when I die because he is merciful, I am not sure if I am fooling myself. Also, a merciful god would have us all in the celestial kingdom or, if I am a protestant or cathoic, in heaven. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

[The Nehor]

In the end, when he asked forgiveness for those who did not know what they were doing, they were not penitent and yet he asked they be forgiven.

This depends on who he was forgiving. If it was the soldiers they were just following orders and were not truly culpable for slaying the Messiah as they probably had no idea who Jesus was; they were told the guy needed crucifying for treason. That is my reading. I do not think God can or will forgive those who are both culpable and unrepentant.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I have had problems with the wrathful God concept for along time, but especially since I read the Bible all the way through. Dr. Peterson, just recently, brought it up, again, on his blog, and I thought I would bring it here, so we could explore this further.

My problem has been seeing a perfect and infinitely loving God, as being (also) wrathful, at times. It just seems like a contradiction, to me. Not that I cannot perceive God as "angry", perhaps, at some of the horrible sin that is perpetrated on this earth, but angry to the point of killing every man, woman, child and beast (as he supposedly ordered the Israelites to do to the Cannaanites?)...that kind of extreme wrath I have a difficult time attributing to God. I, most especially, had a hard time with it, in the context of mainstream Christianity, where all of these people, who were killed, were, then, consigned to an everlasting hell. with no further hope. I think (?) LDS doctrine, would, at least, provide for their possible redemption, in the hereafter? That's something I wanted to ask.

This is the book that Dr. Peterson recommended:

Is God a Moral Monster by Paul Copan

I haven't read the book, but I have been listening to this (quite long) video, where Paul Copan debates this subject with atheist Norman Bacrac.

[media=]http://youtu.be/idCch7fjO1k

One of the things, in the video, that actually made "some" sense to me (from Copan) was that a loving God would cease to be loving, if he did not become angry over terrible atrocities. Maybe. Or not. I guess, I have always perceived God as being "sad" over sin, not really angry. Anger, in my view, is a weakness which God surely could not possess. Especially, a vengeful anger against his own children. (Especially, in light of the LDS concept of children, which is more like human offspring, than what mainstream Christians believe). Such a close relationship might give rise to some anger, but to the point of total destruction? Even we humans do not destroy our youth, when they become misguided. Why would a perfect God do that?

Anyway, those are my thoughts and problems with parts of the O.T. I would like to hear all of your ideas and thoughts on God's Wrath.

Hector Avalos completely decimates Copan's book. His article in John W. Loftus, "The End of Christianity" is powerful refutation of Copan's religious bias confirmational writings. Dr. Peterson seriously needs to consider Avalos and read him if he is going to recommend we read such weak arguments as Copan. I have seen Dr. Peterson, in all good faith, recommend the Intelligent design silliness of Dembski and Behe as well, without ever acknowledging he has read the complete destruction of Intelligent design from the real scientists. Even Dr. Peterson has his biases, and they certainly show more than is supposed.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I don't really know, but I think it could mean that God, alone, is our judge.

Actually, I do see evidence of that kind of kindness coming from Jesus, all over the New Testament. The adulteress, who was to be stoned. The many, many people who were healed (and some of them didn't even say "thank you"...like the several lepers he healed). The woman with an issue of blood. Martha, who was judgmental. Even his disciples, who were, at times, skeptics, afraid and even denied him. And, last of all, he asked Heavenly Father to forgive those who had caused him so much pain (for they know not what they do). So, yes, I see a very loving and kind God, in Jesus.

The adultress who was stoned is a forgery. It's a fake. You can't use that in all honesty. I seriously propose a reading of Bart Ehrman is very helpful in this regard.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I think both extremes exist all the time. In fact in many ways I find the New Testament scarier. The story of the Sheep and the Goats, the commandment given to the rich man who asked what he lacked, the command to be able to hate your own family for God's sake.

Jesus was amazingly tender and compassionate but his severity seems almost intolerable.

And his support of beating slaves and slavery in general is truly horrible. That support alone caused many MILLIONS of people vast amounts of suffering through the centuries, and all he had to do is take maybe 30 seconds and teach that we should NOT have humans as slaves, instead he endorsed the immoral concept.

[Zakuska]

Jesus was amazingly tender and compassionate but his severity seems almost intolerable.

Compasitionate? Yes most of the time, but Lets see:

-A bullwhip in the temple

-The cananite woman a dirty dog

And of course the Angry Christ of Misquoting Jesus:

It would be wrong… to say… that the changes in our text have no real bearing on… the theological conclusions that one draws from them… In some instances, the very meaning of the text is at stake… Was Jesus an angry man [Mark 1:41]? Was he completely distraught in the face of death [Heb. 2:8-9]? Did he tell his disciples that they could drink poison without being harmed [Mark 16:9-20]? Did he let an adulteress off the hook with nothing but a mild warning [John 7:53-8:11]? Is the doctrine of the Trinity explicitly taught in the New Testament [1 John 5:7-8]? …Does the New Testament indicate that even the Son of God himself does not know when the end will come [Matt. 24:36]?

Edited July 31, 2012 by Zakuska

[Calm]

This depends on who he was forgiving. If it was the soldiers they were just following orders and were not truly culpable for slaying the Messiah as they probably had no idea who Jesus was; they were told the guy needed crucifying for treason. That is my reading. I do not think God can or will forgive those who are both culpable and unrepentant.

I agree with that. I thought you were limiting it to only the penitent and was only suggesting that he also included the ignorant and nonculpable as well (as you have done here).

[The Nehor]

And his support of beating slaves and slavery in general is truly horrible. That support alone caused many MILLIONS of people vast amounts of suffering through the centuries, and all he had to do is take maybe 30 seconds and teach that we should NOT have humans as slaves, instead he endorsed the immoral concept.

You are thinking of Paul. Jesus never commented on slavery. Nice try though. Or do you subscribe to the belief that if someone is silent on an issue they support the more evil option?

I have seen that line of reasoning used to argue that Obama is pro-bestiality and Romney is pro-child pornography.

Edited July 31, 2012 by The Nehor

[Libs]

The adultress who was stoned is a forgery. It's a fake. You can't use that in all honesty. I seriously propose a reading of Bart Ehrman is very helpful in this regard.

I've listened to Ehrman debate various people, so I am familiar with him. I think, I have heard that about the adultress, as well...but, you know what? That doesn't mean it couldn't have been an inspired story, even it was myth.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Libs

[Libs]

Hector Avalos completely decimates Copan's book. His article in John W. Loftus, "The End of Christianity" is powerful refutation of Copan's religious bias confirmational writings. Dr. Peterson seriously needs to consider Avalos and read him if he is going to recommend we read such weak arguments as Copan. I have seen Dr. Peterson, in all good faith, recommend the Intelligent design silliness of Dembski and Behe as well, without ever acknowledging he has read the complete destruction of Intelligent design from the real scientists. Even Dr. Peterson has his biases, and they certainly show more than is supposed.

I'm sure we all, do, have our biases.

I'll look into the Avalos article. Is that online?

[Carborendum]

I am continually saddened to see people, even faithful members of the Church worshipping idols or other false gods. This thread is all about what god you worship.

How easy it is to judge God or his actions by our own mortal standards. How easy it is to say I believe God did X but not Y simply because that is not the god I worship. How easy it is to worship false gods and claim belief in the true God.

How easy to forget that God created us in his image so that we may become like Him in spirit and deed as well as in likeness. How easy it is to instead, try to create an image of God in our own minds, in our own image, after our own likeness. How easy to make Him more like us than try to make ourselves more like Him.

How easy... How sad...

Edited July 31, 2012 by Carborendum

[Libs]

Carborendum, are you saying that, because I don't believe God would kill off his own creation that I am making a God in my own image? Because I have a difficult time seeing God as a murderer? I have to admit, I am not a murderer. I don't even like to kill insects. Is that a bad thing that I would believe the same about God? I just don't see how...and I sure don't see how that is "sad".

Edited July 31, 2012 by Libs

[blackstrap]

My body is not mine,even according to the State. It is made from the elements.It is a vessel for my spirit,nothing more. As I did not create it,I must assume that the Creator has the right to do with it as He pleases. If I create a painting or a sculpture or a piece of music,then I have the right to change it or even destroy it as I see fit.

[The Nehor]

I am continually saddened to see people, even faithful members of the Church worshipping idols or other false gods. This thread is all about what god you worship.

How easy it is to judge God or his actions by our own mortal standards. How easy it is to say I believe God did X but not Y simply because that is not the god I worship. How easy it is to worship false gods and claim belief in the true God.

How easy to forget that God created us in his image so that we may become like Him in spirit and deed as well as in likeness. How easy it is to instead, try to create an image of God in our own minds, in our own image, after our own likeness. How easy to make Him more like us than try to make ourselves more like Him.

How easy... How sad...

How patronizing and condescending of you.

[teddyaware]

The book of Moses, in the Pearl of Great Price, gives us some interesting points to ponder with regard to this issue. With the blessing of modern revelation, we are allowed to peer into heaven to see what went on there, prior to the great flood that would extinguish a world of humanity -- except for eleven souls -- that had totally ripened in iniquity. Though the flood of Noah's time is considered one of the quintessential examples of God's judgmental wrath upon the wicked, nevertheless, Enoch's vision -- as recorded in Moses chapter 7 -- reveals an emotionally tortured God who weeps bitterly as he contemplates the judgements he's obliged to carry out by law, but in which he takes no pleasure at all. In this remarkable chapter we see a God who is so distraught over the coming outpouring of his wrath -- a judgement that eternal law demands must be executed upon the wicked for the sake of their own long-term good -- that Enoch is utterly astonished at the overwhelming spectacle of such immense, divine anguish. In this vision, it is not only God who is weeping, but the entire host of heaven is caught up in the gut wrenching mourning, "shedding forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains (After digesting this chapter, one cannot help but believe the rain of the actual flood was a graphic symbol of God's own broken heart)". Then, after being shown the true extent of the wickedness of humanity in that day, even Enoch's heart breaks.

What follows are some of the pertinent verses from Moses 7. Hopefully, the board members here will be willing to read and ponder these verses of LDS scripture with at least the same degree of focus and diligence they exercise while reading the non-scriptural comments found on this site. After all, if I the honest in heart will study and ponder the following verses of scripture with real intent, their questions as to whether or not the God of wrath and judgement is also a being of true love, mercy and salvation will be answered. Here they are:

25 And he (Enoch) saw angels descending out of heaven; and he heard a loud voice saying: Wo, wo be unto the inhabitants of the earth.

26 And he beheld Satan; and he had a great chain in his hand, and it veiled the whole face of the earth with darkness; and he looked up and laughed, and his angels rejoiced.

27 And Enoch beheld angels descending out of heaven, bearing testimony of the Father and Son; and the Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up by the powers of heaven into Zion.

28 And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?

29 And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity? ...

30 And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever;

31 And thou hast taken Zion to thine own bosom, from all thy creations, from all eternity to all eternity; and naught but peace, justice, and truth is the habitation of thy throne; and mercy shall go before thy face and have no end; how is it thou canst weep?

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

33 And unto thy brethren have I said, and also given commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood;

34 And the fire of mine indignation is kindled against them; and in my hot displeasure will I send in the floods upon them, for my fierce anger is kindled against them.

35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.

37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison have I prepared for them.

9And That (Christ) which I have chosen hath pled before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen shall return unto me, and until that day they shall be in torment;

40 Wherefore, for this shall the heavens weep, yea, and all the workmanship of mine hands.

41 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Enoch, and told Enoch all the doings of the children of men; wherefore Enoch knew, and looked upon their wickedness, and their misery, and wept and stretched forth his arms, and his heart swelled wide as eternity; and his bowels yearned; and all eternity shook.

So, by these verses we see that the heartbroken God of Heaven sent forth floods upon mankind in order to eventually save them. After their deaths, the wicked are shut up in a spirit prison (hell), a place where sinners are exposed to the results of their own folly, unmitigated. But in a future day, after suffering the unavoidable consequences that are inflicted upon them as a result of their casting aside and setting at naught the love-inspired decrees of a just and loving God, they will eventually be given the opportunity to come unto Christ (see Doctrine & Covenants 138) and repent. If they do at length elect to come unto Christ and sincerely repent -- prior to the final day of judgement -- they will have the blessed opportunity to joyfully receive salvation and happiness in one of God's many mansions of glory (see Doctrine & Covenants 76).

The flood -- as well as the many other examples of God's wrathful judgements -- are a tough-love means to a better and glorious end for the children of God -- children whom he loves with a love that is infinite and eternal. One can rest assured that if in the various circumstances God encounters there is some other less extreme means to eventually save his wayward children, he will most certainly do use them. But sometimes the Sodom and Gomorrah option is the only optinion that will save, so ripened in iniquity and desperate wickedness are his children. Satan's hold upon their hearts and minds is so great that terrible judgements, like those spoken of in 3rd Nephi, are the only means whereby deliverance from death and hell can be accomplished...

And That (Christ) which I have chosen hath pled (for those suffering in the sprit prison) before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their (the wicked of Noah's day) sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen shall return unto me (the day glorious day of the resurrection of Christ, when missionary work commences in the spirit world), and until that day they shall be in torment (learn by suffering the consequences that result from their own sins).

The bottom line? In spite of what some might think, God really is love; always doing that which is in the eternal best interests of his children -- as difficult and hard to do as that sometimes it might be...

Doubt not, but be believeing. (Jesus Christ)

[wenglund]

Given the profound limitations of my understandings and fields of experience in comparison to God's, I think it would be the zenith of pride and arrogance for me to presume to judge God or even to tell him what he can or cannot morally do in relation to his children. Instead, I find it best to humbly sit at his feet for instruction, and to use his revealed word for the purposes that it was intended.

But, then, that may just be me. Others may well be up to the task--or so they may suppose.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Death is not a punishment, but dying just might be.

Death and dying...are they not the same for the most part. Keep in mind that 99 out of 100 Christans see death as punishment for sin. I would not want to live forever as a mortal.

[Libs]

Given the profound limitations of my understandings and fields of experience in comparison to God's, I think it would be the zenith of pride and arrogance for me to presume to judge God or even to tell him what he can or cannot morally do in relation to his children. Instead, I find it best to humbly sit at his feet for instruction, and to use his revealed word for the purposes that it was intended.

But, then, that may just be me. Others may well be up to the task--or so they may suppose.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

But, you are starting from the presupposition that these particular events were of God. I don't start from that premise (about anything in the Bible or any other scripture). That doesn't mean I don't end up there (I am moved by many, many things in scripture), but I don't start with the presupposition that it is all from God, just because it is in scripture..

[Calm]

Death and dying...are they not the same for the most part.

Not in my mind. Dying can take a long, long time, death happens in an instant; it is what happens at the end of dying.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Not in my mind. Dying can take a long, long time, death happens in an instant; it is what happens at the end of dying.

I was speaking as a punishment.

[wenglund]

But, you are starting from the presupposition that these particular events were of God. I don't start from that premise (about anything in the Bible or any other scripture). That doesn't mean I don't end up there (I am moved by many, many things in scripture), but I don't start with the presupposition that it is all from God, just because it is in scripture..

No, I really didn't start from that premise. I was actually silent (didn't presume either way) about whether the events were of God or not, precisely for the reasons I explained.

I did, however, presume that the scriptures were of God and ought to be used for the purpose they were intended, but this is different from presuming that the events within the scriptures are of God.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Given the profound limitations of my understandings and fields of experience in comparison to God's, I think it would be the zenith of pride and arrogance for me to presume to judge God or even to tell him what he can or cannot morally do in relation to his children. Instead, I find it best to humbly sit at his feet for instruction, and to use his revealed word for the purposes that it was intended.

But, then, that may just be me. Others may well be up to the task--or so they may suppose.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't think it is foolhardy at all to judge God as he is depicted in scripture. We have the scientific means to do so, I say do so. It is not presumptuous, it is the human thing to do. If we are asked or even commanded to love (ridiculous when you think on that, just HOW can one be COMMANDED to love?? Love is only earned, not commanded. I cannot command my wife to love him, the very thought is utterly silly) and worship God, then we have absolutely every single possible right to know exactly what kind of being this is, and the Bible is our best bet of figuring it out. And it ain't a pretty picture. I'll show that in my book I'm writing.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Kerry A. Shirts

[Kerry A. Shirts]

But, you are starting from the presupposition that these particular events were of God. I don't start from that premise (about anything in the Bible or any other scripture). That doesn't mean I don't end up there (I am moved by many, many things in scripture), but I don't start with the presupposition that it is all from God, just because it is in scripture..

After all, truly, all scripture is private interpretation when you look at it. It is humans giving their views of what they want us to think. One of the very strongest books showing this is Grant Hardy "Understanding the Book of Mormon." One can literally see this is not about objective reality, but is simply Nephi's bias, Lehi's bias, Mormon and Moroni's bias, etc. There is no objective truth or reality being shown in the scriptures. Absolutely all of it is interpretation. Read Hardy if you think I am kidding. It is an eye opening revelation in that regard.

[MAsh]

...we have absolutely every single possible right to know exactly what kind of being this is, and the Bible is our best bet of figuring it out.

FWIW, I disagree that "the Bible is our best bet" for figuring out what kind of being God is. But I don't really have the time to get into it with the FAIR Conference starting up on Thursday & a bunch of DVDs I still have to finish.

...it ain't a pretty picture. I'll show that in my book I'm writing.

I look forward to reading it. Any idea of an ETA?

[Kerry A. Shirts]

FWIW, I disagree that "the Bible is our best bet" for figuring out what kind of being God is. But I don't really have the time to get into it with the FAIR Conference starting up on Thursday & a bunch of DVDs I still have to finish.

I look forward to reading it. Any idea of an ETA?

Sure it is. The Bible is the foundation document of all Western Religion. If it gets the green light, then other ideas are possible. About my book? Ayiyi.....oh about 6 years - GRIN! (kidding, but it'll be a while, I aim on doing a seriously rigorous analysis this time)