A Wrathful God

[why me]

I was attempting to make the point to Kerry. You just got mixed up in it. I wish that I could understand Kerry's problem. He seems to be all over the place with his new ideas. I suppose when one is searching for clues or answers from various sources, this can happen.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

The church has never encouraged people not to acquire knowledge. In fact, it has always claimed that members should read from the best books and to educate themselves in the wonderful knowledge of the past, present and future.

ONLY so long as they come to the conclusions that Mormonism does, otherwise one can get excommunicated for apostasy as David P. Wright and the September 6 were once. Acquire knowledge, but be sure and tuck it under the rubric of Mormonism, otherwise it's best to jettison it, even if it has the evidence.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Kerry A. Shirts

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Now kerry you know that this is not true. Have you ever attended catholic catechism classes? One learns about god, communion of the saints, church beliefs, and what is required to get to heaven. One is not learning the great philosophers of the world, world history, the intricate ideas of science. True, catholic catechism can resort to Augustinas, Aquinas etc. but one learns them within the confines of catholic beliefs.

The rest is up to each individual to acquire the knowledge necessary to be a holistic human being. Anwd this is the same for CES. I think that you are grasping at straws in your posts. Do you see yourself in Maxine? By the way, since this thread is about a wrathful god, I think that we can say that god is patient with truth seekers.

However, no matter where you may find yourself in truth seeking, please never attack the lds church as some have done. If so, you will have us to contend with on the boards.

Well so far contending with ya has been far easier than I expected..... Come on! You GOTTA say you saw that one coming......

[MAsh]

ONLY so long as they come to the conclusions that Mormonism does, otherwise one can get excommunicated for apostasy as David P. Wright and the September 6 were once. Acquire knowledge, but be sure and tuck it under the rubric of Mormonism, otherwise it's best to jettison it, even if it has the evidence.

To apply a quote from the movie "Independence Day":

President Whitmore: Mr. Levinson, you're mistaken. There is no Area 51. There is no spaceship:

Albert Nimzicki: Uh... Mr. President. That's not entirely accurate.

Acquiring knowledge doesn't meann acquiring truth. And some "knowledge" can put you in conflict with your church, employer, political party, family, etc. Recall Dr. Stephen Jones who got booted from BYU because of his "knowledge" which he kept sharing-- publicly-- that the 911 Twin Towers collapse was a government consipiracy.

The church doesn't discipline those who acquire "knowledge" even if it conflicts with primary teachings. It does, however, discipline those (sometimes) who actively promote teachings that conflict with with core teachings. And why shouldn't they. If, in my job, I claimed knowledge (not necessarily truth) that conflicted with core precepts of my employer and I publicly promoted those views on FB, it would be strange if I didn't get fired.

Finally, a lot of the things for which we can gain knowledge (real, accurate knowledge) might conflict with some LDS assumptions or traditions, but do not always conflict with core teachings. Among this list we might include evolution, God's foreknowledge & omnipotence, the creation of the cosmos, the historicty of many/most Bible stories, the reality of the Noachian flood, the method of revelation in the human brain, etc. Acquiring knowledge about these things, even writing about our findings, don't automatically get us disciplined-- even if they conflict with the majority few of LDS. If we interpret such knowledge to conclusions that run contrary to LDS core beliefs, we still don't get disciplined. If, however, our intrepretations and public promotion of our interpretations are seen as attempts to undermine the faith of members belonging to or investigating the Church (or used to undermine our jobs, etc.) we shouldn't be surprised if disciplinary actions are invoked.

[Libs]

What about exploring or promoting controversial issues on a message board, like this? Is that considered "public" enough, for the church to consider excommunicating someone?

Edited August 7, 2012 by Libs

[Calm]

I highly doubt that...it would have to be pretty extreme, preaching as opposed to discussion, obviously trying to convert people to that opinion.

[Libs]

I suppose it would have to come to the attention of your Bishop or Stake President, before it could even be considered an issue...

[why me]

ONLY so long as they come to the conclusions that Mormonism does, otherwise one can get excommunicated for apostasy as David P. Wright and the September 6 were once. Acquire knowledge, but be sure and tuck it under the rubric of Mormonism, otherwise it's best to jettison it, even if it has the evidence.

I think that we need to understand what Paul said about the church being of one mind. Why did he say what he said? Because the church was being fragmented by individuals who were leading people astray and causing divisions within the church. No church can survive with people coming up with their own doctrine or by people who cause divisions. I think that the september six could have been guilty of this.

But a unified church is important.

[why me]

What about exploring or promoting controversial issues on a message board, like this? Is that considered "public" enough, for the church to consider excommunicating someone?

No. However, if one is in church preaching their own doctrine, challenging the leaders stance on issues, causing divisions inside the church, that could cause a reaction.

[why me]

Acquiring knowledge doesn't meann acquiring truth. And some "knowledge" can put you in conflict with your church, employer, political party, family, etc. Recall Dr. Stephen Jones who got booted from BYU because of his "knowledge" which he kept sharing-- publicly-- that the 911 Twin Towers collapse was a government consipiracy.

Churches need to be of one mind. It is important to have unity or a schism will occur. We saw this after Joseph was murdered and over polygamy. Those who did not want to follow brigham fell away and those who did not want to follow the manifesto, fell away too and started their own sects. Kerry seems to think that a church can be run from below and not from above with the members free to interpret doctrine and set new doctrine and beliefs for the membership.

We see this happening with same sex marriage. Some mormon boards are buzzing about supporting same sex marriage. No problem. But to publically support it from the pulpit may just get someone is trouble.

[BlueDreams]

I think what has helped me to understand wrath and God better is Moses 7:23-41, 48-49.

In short, it's the great agonizing pain that it causes all of creation. Might add it to your list of readings on wrath. I think it has been one of the more pertinent readings for me to understand wrath, the atonement, the connection of all that God creates, and inevitably God's own mercy.

Not in much of a expounding mood today, but I wanted to give you that at least.

With luv,

BD

[Libs]

Thanks, BD. I'll look that up.

[Libs]

I did read the scripture, BD. Seems it is about the flood and how God felt very sad over the way mankind was behaving....but, still sent the flood (although, he did save Noah and his family). Not sure what I was supposed to get from that. Maybe, you could expand on it, a little, BD?

[BlueDreams]

I did read the scripture, BD. Seems it is about the flood and how God felt very sad over the way mankind was behaving....but, still sent the flood (although, he did save Noah and his family). Not sure what I was supposed to get from that. Maybe, you could expand on it, a little, BD?

I will, hopefully tonight. Sorry I'm out of sorts tonight. Went/sang for a funeral of a young aqcuaintence today. Effected me more than I expected it to. Kinda tired. But I'll try to get to it

With luv,

BD

[Libs]

I will, hopefully tonight. Sorry I'm out of sorts tonight. Went/sang for a funeral of a young aqcuaintence today. Effected me more than I expected it to. Kinda tired. But I'll try to get to it

With luv,

BD

No problem, BD. Don't worry about this, at all. I am very sorry to hear about your young acquaintance. It always seems more sad, when young people leave us so soon. Hope you are feeling better soon. God bless and comfort you.

[BlueDreams]

No problem, BD. Don't worry about this, at all. I am very sorry to hear about your young acquaintance. It always seems more sad, when young people leave us so soon. Hope you are feeling better soon. God bless and comfort you.

It's not that, really. It was having a front row seat, the entire time, to watching his family/friends mourn and say goodbye, the majority I don't know. I feel it's becoming a hands on lesson of mourning with those that mourn. But I'll get to it tonight. It'll be a nice scripture study, besides.

[BlueDreams]

Some random thoughts before I get to the scriptures themselves:

• I came to the conclusion that God’s Love is very different from the way we love here on earth. Our love is terribly limited in that we love unilaterally. We love one person. And we love another. We don’t have the full capacity to love all people like God does. God blesses the life of one individual in a means to bless not just the individual but all those around them. His love is truly infinite and ripples in its effect.
  
• The entire fabric of all things is reigned by what makes God, God. Love, mercy, compassion, unity, etc. It is, in essence, Zion. Zion, not as a place, but a state of being that meets the ways of the Lord. This is the ultimate gift of the Lord. This is the ultimate governing force of all creation and eternity.
  
• I connect wrath to its synonym indignation which according to my googled dictionary means anger arouse by something unjust.
  
• It is a great lie that we’re separate, that our actions have minimal consequence beyond ourselves.
  

Kay, now on to the scriptures themselves…hopefully the musings above will link in ok.

So this is a story about Noah and the Flood. But it’s far more than that, to me. It’s instruction as to what brings God’s wrath and the vast extent of his mercy. To me, it truly depicts how the Lord is “slow to anger” (ps 145:8 )

So initially we have Enoch and he’s talk about the raising of Zion. It’s not an immediate lifting (though there does appear to be a big immediate portion that are raised up) but described as occurring in the “process of time.” The Lord then describes this process and the efforts needed to take them starting in v 23. This was a process that took generations, lifting people up. But in the meantime the power of Satan also grows (there’s less good to balance out the bad). So God sends angels down to warn the people. And many more were brought up. Meanwhile though, Satan is described as having a “great chain” his power is becoming oppressive to the people. The Lord has literally used all that there was to warn the people and the majority are taken up. What’s left is described as “the residue” of the people. Residue to me, denotes things like soap scum or ashes or remains…. it’s the end of the line. So we have the soap scum of humanity left, the worst of the worst. And this is where the story describes what necessitates the need for wrath.

This is where a number of my points come in. Their actions are not isolated, even in a state where only the most wicked people remain with Satan on earth. There actions cause the “heavens to weep” (28) the earth to mourn in agony (48). I’d disagree with the description of “God felt very sad over the way mankind was behaving....but, still sent the floods” You mentioned. No, the floods were an inevitability to the actions of man. I love the imagery because it points to that: “How is it the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?” In my mind, the floods are an indication of the great sorrow that has filled all of creation. It is tearing at all that is, not just themselves, and the negativity is felt throughout all that exists and is created by the hand of the Lord. As His creations, it is also harming them as well. They are being oppressed. Their potential as those who are the “workmanship” of God’s own hands, have been lured and chained down by Satan (by their choice, but still) have come to fully reject all that makes Zion.…which includes their true selves and purpose. In doing so, they are about as useful as ash or residue, exhausting all that was of God. I (again) love the imagery of the “fire of mine indignation” fire is used often in the scriptures, not only to describe bad, but also the refiner’s fire. It can be used to destroy or perfect. In my mind the difference is our willingness to submit to the refiner’s hands. These are those who will not be held and will thus be scorched. No way around it. If you let go of all that is there to support you, expect to fall. It is unjust that all of creation must continue to suffer under the terrible weight of others sins. And this is exactly what’s occurring. The Lord cannot ignore the cry of pain from His creation. It’s contained, justly, upon those who have brought about such pain. There is the source of His wrath.

But this is, to me, the backdrop to the great extent of God’s mercy. Just as inevitable as the wrath, it is depicted as equally inevitable that Christ must suffer for them, specifically. Their actions, described as more wicked than anything else God has ever seen in all that he’s created, must be atoned. Christ, the embodiment of all that is God, must feel what they feel, irrelevant to whether they turn to Him or not. His wrath is kindled so that the destructive cycle, harming all (not just the residue),may be stemmed. He’s angry because of the depth of sin that harms all that is, causes eternity to shake, the Earth to cry in agony, and pained all those before and after them, and especially Christ. It is justified; it is expected; it must stop. His mercy is enacted in order to heal those wounds that are left. It is apart of the cleansing process that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Hope that helped.

With luv,

BD

Edited August 8, 2012 by BlueDreams

[Libs]

Thank you, so much, BD. That was really a beautiful explanation of those verses. I appreciate the time you took to with it.

I like and understand the idea of cleansing...and the flood being tears..cleansing tears. I am not sure if this is LDS doctrine, but I was told that the flood was a sort of baptism of the earth. Not sure if that is in the scriptures, though.

Your explanation just reaffirms for me, how deeply one can think about this doctrine.

I studied the O.T. from an Orthodox Christian perspective, which is not nearly as hopeful, for the human race, as LDS doctrine tends to be. The death of sinners, especially, if God is commanding it, is a sure sentence to an eternal hell. The interpretation is very harsh and without much hope. Your explanation seems very poetic, by comparison...plus, there is always hope in the eternities for most people.

Thank you, much, BD. Very inspiring read.