A Wrathful God

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Perhaps, but it comes across more as dogmatic and uncritical acceptance of tendentious New Atheist claims. One pile of sand for another, if you will.

That's because they take no prisoners and their analysis and evidence is quite powerful I have discovered. I will try not to get into that mode, but I certainly am examining things a lot more careful than I used to.....a LOT more careful. I will try to quit being so self righteous and judgmental here. I don't mean to be, honest.

[volgadon]

Words from the wise: "Generalities like this are useless, I would enjoy seeing specifics. Thanks." Good advice for any situation almost.

[volgadon]

That's because they take no prisoners and their analysis and evidence is quite powerful I have discovered. I will try not to get into that mode, but I certainly am examining things a lot more careful than I used to.....a LOT more careful. I will try to quit being so self righteous and judgmental here. I don't mean to be, honest.

It's ok, we're all human. I would suggest looking a bit more into studies on imaginative worlds. What I mean by "imaginative world" is how we conceive of the world around us and how we relate to it and the information we encounter. It is how we give our world meaning. Trust me, this kind of self-awareness helps answer quite a few questions much better than the kinds of intellectual debate in this skit.

I used to waffle between atheism and agnosticism. I was even given a Dawkins book or two as a birthday present, and Mark Steele is one of my favourite presenters. There doesn't have to be a conflict when the scope and limitations of things are understood.

[Maidservant]

studies on imaginative worlds.

do you have a place I could start doing this? thanks.

[volgadon]

do you have a place I could start doing this? thanks.

Dodds' "The Greeks and the Irrational," Matheson's "The Imaginative World of the Reformation," Hill's "The World Turned Upside Down," Coulianu's "Eros and Magic in the Renaissance" and Williamson's "Apocalypse Then: Prophecy and the Making of the Modern World" are a few that come to mind.

I'll look for online articles, too.

Edited August 3, 2012 by volgadon

[Maidservant]

Dodds' "The Greeks and the Irrational," Matheson's "The Imaginative World of the Reformation," Hill's "The World Turned Upside Down," Coulianu's "Eros and Magic in the Renaissance" and Williamson's "Apocalypse Then: Prophecy and the Making of the Modern World" are a few that come to mind.

I'll look for online articles, too.

thanks .

[Calm]

Look, lets face it, I am in a serious faith crisis with what the church has taught us. I am simply working my way through it.

Well, then you should remember from having watched others go through this in a variety of ways, it rarely helps to look at things in a black and white or all or nothing way. The way to work through it without sacrificing truth....no matter what destination you end up at....is to be realistic and fair.....and it doesn't hurt in my opinion to throw some mercy into the mix for oneself and others because after all we are all human, fallible and so often we think we are right, have studied all there is out there on a subject and made a judgment only to find we've missed an essential piece.

[wenglund]

Well, then you should remember from having watched others go through this in a variety of ways, it rarely helps to look at things in a black and white or all or nothing way. The way to work through it without sacrificing truth....no matter what destination you end up at....is to be realistic and fair.....and it doesn't hurt in my opinion to throw some mercy into the mix for oneself and others because after all we are all human, fallible and so often we think we are right, have studied all there is out there on a subject and made a judgment only to find we've missed an essential piece.

Great advice. I would also add that it helps to keep your mind and options open, stay balanced and put first things first, don't take yourself too seriously, and maintain a healthy sense of humor. In short, be more like the old Kerry.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tacenda]

Great advice. I would also add that it helps to keep your mind and options open, stay balanced and put first things first, don't take yourself too seriously, and maintain a healthy sense of humor. In short, be more like the old Kerry.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I've been watching some of Kerry's "The Backyard Professor" videos on youtube. He appears to have distanced himself in a belief in God. Have all of the youtubes been like this or does he have any that are as a true believer? They are very interesting and thought provoking but onesided and seem to be black and white.

Btw I tend to compare people with celebrities whether it be looks, mannerisms or both and Kerry reminds me of the actor Nick Nolte on his better days. If you read this Kerry have you ever had anyone say this to you?

[wenglund]

I've been watching some of Kerry's "The Backyard Professor" videos on youtube. He appears to have distanced himself in a belief in God. Have all of the youtubes been like this or does he have any that are as a true believer? They are very interesting and thought provoking but onesided and seem to be black and white.

Btw I tend to compare people with celebrities whether it be looks, mannerisms or both and Kerry reminds me of the actor Nick Nolte on his better days. If you read this Kerry have you ever had anyone say this to you?

Check out some of his videos taken at the FAIR Conferences if they are still posted. They are full of passion and cheer and edifying information, which is quite a contrast to the surprisingly somber and stupifying and dismissive videos of late. There are also a number of on-line articles that will give a good measure of the former man. He was anything but black and white, though he seems more so now.

I mark the start of his decline in faith when he began dabbling more in-depth into Kabbalah and Masonry. I don't know, but I suspect that the highly figurative nature of those two entities, and things he may have learned during those studies, may have been way too much for him, causing him to retreat to the far more literal/fundamentalist thinking of scientism. But, I am just wildly guessing.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I've been watching some of Kerry's "The Backyard Professor" videos on youtube. He appears to have distanced himself in a belief in God. Have all of the youtubes been like this or does he have any that are as a true believer? They are very interesting and thought provoking but onesided and seem to be black and white.

Btw I tend to compare people with celebrities whether it be looks, mannerisms or both and Kerry reminds me of the actor Nick Nolte on his better days. If you read this Kerry have you ever had anyone say this to you?

YES!!!! Kisses to you! Many have said this to me......... and if I appear to being more black and white, I guess perhaps its in honor of Bruce R. McConkie? O.K. kidding, of course. I would never try to be that closed minded or dogmatic - GRIN!

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Check out some of his videos taken at the FAIR Conferences if they are still posted. They are full of passion and cheer and edifying information, which is quite a contrast to the surprisingly somber and stupifying and dismissive videos of late. There are also a number of on-line articles that will give a good measure of the former man. He was anything but black and white, though he seems more so now.

I mark the start of his decline in faith when he began dabbling more in-depth into Kabbalah and Masonry. I don't know, but I suspect that the highly figurative nature of those two entities, and things he may have learned during those studies, may have been way too much for him, causing him to retreat to the far more literal/fundamentalist thinking of scientism. But, I am just wildly guessing.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You are quite mistaken on my take of things Wade. No biggie......... I am in no wise, and neither are any of the scientific authors I am reading or using involved in scientism. NONE of them say only answers of truth are available through science alone. This is a charicature of what they say and are doing. Honestly.

[wenglund]

You are quite mistaken on my take of things Wade. No biggie......... I am in no wise, and neither are any of the scientific authors I am reading or using involved in scientism. NONE of them say only answers of truth are available through science alone. This is a charicature of what they say and are doing. Honestly.

I am happy to be corrected. I was going by what I have seen permeating your recent posts, though you know yourself better than me and what is going on in your mind and heart and spirit--assuming you are still in touch with the last two.

Believe it or not, several decades ago I went through a rather serious faith crisis of my own. It was precipitated mostly by the severing of a 4-year relationship I had with a woman and her two kids, who meant the world to me. Loosing them felt as bad as if I had lost my limbs, and even as though I had died but was still alive (I literally was a walking dead). And, in a lot of ways, in including my faith, that was the way it was.

However, my loss of faith was more so the loss of faith in myself as a worthwhile and valued person than it was loss of faith in God and the Church, though the former couldn't help but diminish the latter. I went into a deep depression that lasted for more than a decade and a half, and the best I could muster during that time was to just go through the motions, even with my religious observances.

Gratefully, I was able to come out of my depression and zombie-like spiritual state by finally figuring out, among other things, the points I made in my previous post--that and doing a lot of running, hiking, mountain biking (I have virtually traversed the mountains along the Wasatch Front), and getting out of my head and taking care of my "heart", and to some extent by forgetting about myself and just being there and doing things for others.

More important, I kept myself interactive with family and friends, and wisely maintained the support system with the Church.

Lastly, I stopped looking backwards and started looking forward to the future. I stopped focusing just on the negative, and gradually became more mindful of the positives--the principle and practice of gratitude was invaluable.

In short, I stopped regretting what I wasn't and what I didn't have or may never have, and I started determining what type of person I wanted to be, particularly in terms of my relationships with others, and I went about in a relaxed fashion achieving both, while also allowing myself more than a little humanity.

I am not sure if any of this will be of help to you other than to let you know that you aren't alone in what it is you are going through, and that there are not a few of us, me included, who have, in our own ways, experienced a crisis of faith and come through it just fine and perhaps even better than before. And, maybe you may even learn a thing or two from we who have been battle-torn and scared, so that unlike me, it doesn't take you 15 years before you finally come to your senses.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Libs]

I've been watching some of Kerry's "The Backyard Professor" videos on youtube. He appears to have distanced himself in a belief in God. Have all of the youtubes been like this or does he have any that are as a true believer? They are very interesting and thought provoking but onesided and seem to be black and white.

Btw I tend to compare people with celebrities whether it be looks, mannerisms or both and Kerry reminds me of the actor Nick Nolte on his better days. If you read this Kerry have you ever had anyone say this to you?

I hadn't thought of it, but I do see the resemblance.

I have enjoyed several of Kerry's "Backyard Professor" videos. My favorites were on the Kabbalah, as I had studied this a bit, in my youth and did see some similarities within Mormonism.

[Libs]

Wade....how very awful for you. It had to be difficult for those children, as well, if they had become attached to you. Glad to hear you made your way back.

I don't know why, but I am always surprised when certain people say they have had struggles, in the church (although, your struggles didn't seem to have to do, really, with the church, itself)...but, just wouldn't have ever occurred to me that you had ever had any doubts or struggles about the church. Honestly, when I hear stories like yours, it makes me feel a little less alienated.

[why me]

I should have been more clear. Look, lets face it, I am in a serious faith crisis with what the church has taught us. I am simply working my way through it. So much just no longer makes the sense to me that it used to when I was simply agreeing because it sounded good or felt good to accept what was said. Under sincere and real looking into, I find far and away different conclusions than I once accepted when I was so uncritical, meaning, not careful.

I knew that you were in a faith crisis by the tone of your posts. It is not uncommon to have a crisis of faith. In fact, it is quite common these days among all faiths. The secular world is making an effort to get people to doubt God. And critics of mormonism are in full swing in casting doubt about the truth claims of the church.

The church is built on a premise. The premise is the first vision and the book of mormon. It also built on faith and testimony of that truth claim. If you once had faith and testimony and felt the workings of the spirit, it may be best to remember it. Also, I still haven't figured out how 11 people could see what they saw, never deny it and give testimony on their deathbeds about it regardless of the distance between church and them.

But Dawkins et al are certainly attempting to pop holes in the faith of those who believe.

[why me]

I've been watching some of Kerry's "The Backyard Professor" videos on youtube. He appears to have distanced himself in a belief in God. Have all of the youtubes been like this or does he have any that are as a true believer? They are very interesting and thought provoking but onesided and seem to be black and white.

He did have such videos. Kerry was an apologist at one point. Kerry is suffering from an atheist book backlash. As he delves more into atheism, his faith will suffer. Next, unfortunately, he will be calling for evidence that the church is true. It is all a step in the process. The good news is: if he left the church, he will come back as Don Bradley has done along with other academics who have delved in new ageism etc.

[why me]

I have enjoyed several of Kerry's "Backyard Professor" videos. My favorites were on the Kabbalah, as I had studied this a bit, in my youth and did see some similarities within Mormonism.

He seems to be following in the footsteps of Maxine Hanks. It would be interesting if he watched her video from 2003 on youtube. He would definitely see himself in that video.

Fortunately, Maxine came back to the church after years of searching.

[wenglund]

Wade....how very awful for you.

I have no one to blame but myself. Self-destruction (which is what it was all about in my case) is bad for the person going through it, but sometimes even worse for loved-ones watching it happen and feeling helpless to stop it. Looking back I marvel at what a waste of humanity it was, but then I realize that it does no one any good to ruminate about it--except to learn from it and hope to take what I have learned to help others.

It had to be difficult for those children, as well, if they had become attached to you. Glad to hear you made your way back.

Thanks, me too.

I don't know why, but I am always surprised when certain people say they have had struggles, in the church (although, your struggles didn't seem to have to do, really, with the church, itself)...but, just wouldn't have ever occurred to me that you had ever had any doubts or struggles about the church. Honestly, when I hear stories like yours, it makes me feel a little less alienated.

I am very glad you are less alienated. Truth is, in many ways I have long felt the odd man out, that I didn't really fit in anywhere. However, the more I became okay with that, and continued to mingle with my fellow humans anyway, I discovered that we all feel that way to some extent or other, and may be bonded to each other by virtue of our uniqueness and oddities.

In fact, I still struggle with my faith in myself and the Church. To me, that is what it is all about. It is how I am strengthened. When things are going well for me as an adult, and faith and life come easy, is when I progress the least and am really most vulnerable (which is where I was at prior to the break up). So, I am actually grateful in a way for God giving me my struggles, and for your's and Kerry's struggles as well. It causes my heart to swell with Christ-like love for you--which I find to be a good thing.

Sorry for all the psyco-babble and sacrin. I can get carried away some times on this subject. Time to get back to agitating the critics. LOL

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited August 3, 2012 by wenglund

[Calm]

I discovered that we all feel that way to some extent or other, and may be bonded to each other by virtue of our uniqueness and oddities.

I think this is very true for most people, if not all.

[wenglund]

I think this is very true for most people, if not all.

If there are few that don't feel that way, then that unavoidably makes them unique or odd. Funny that.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Libs]

I do think it's true that we all have "something" that makes us feel a little different from the rest. Hopefully, at some point, we can learn to appreciate those unique challenges. We all have things to learn....and something to give.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I am happy to be corrected. I was going by what I have seen permeating your recent posts, though you know yourself better than me and what is going on in your mind and heart and spirit--assuming you are still in touch with the last two.

Believe it or not, several decades ago I went through a rather serious faith crisis of my own. It was precipitated mostly by the severing of a 4-year relationship I had with a woman and her two kids, who meant the world to me. Loosing them felt as bad as if I had lost my limbs, and even as though I had died but was still alive (I literally was a walking dead). And, in a lot of ways, in including my faith, that was the way it was.

However, my loss of faith was more so the loss of faith in myself as a worthwhile and valued person than it was loss of faith in God and the Church, though the former couldn't help but diminish the latter. I went into a deep depression that lasted for more than a decade and a half, and the best I could muster during that time was to just go through the motions, even with my religious observances.

Gratefully, I was able to come out of my depression and zombie-like spiritual state by finally figuring out, among other things, the points I made in my previous post--that and doing a lot of running, hiking, mountain biking (I have virtually traversed the mountains along the Wasatch Front), and getting out of my head and taking care of my "heart", and to some extent by forgetting about myself and just being there and doing things for others.

More important, I kept myself interactive with family and friends, and wisely maintained the support system with the Church.

Lastly, I stopped looking backwards and started looking forward to the future. I stopped focusing just on the negative, and gradually became more mindful of the positives--the principle and practice of gratitude was invaluable.

In short, I stopped regretting what I wasn't and what I didn't have or may never have, and I started determining what type of person I wanted to be, particularly in terms of my relationships with others, and I went about in a relaxed fashion achieving both, while also allowing myself more than a little humanity.

I am not sure if any of this will be of help to you other than to let you know that you aren't alone in what it is you are going through, and that there are not a few of us, me included, who have, in our own ways, experienced a crisis of faith and come through it just fine and perhaps even better than before. And, maybe you may even learn a thing or two from we who have been battle-torn and scared, so that unlike me, it doesn't take you 15 years before you finally come to your senses.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

LOL! finally a post of yours I like within the last week....... thanks.......I'm flexible and willing to keep on truckin without question. I am just reading the other side....no, I mean it, the REALLY other side in order to maintain a balance in learning. I am just honestly rather surprised at the stunning strength of the REALLY other side however. Not something I expected is all.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

He did have such videos. Kerry was an apologist at one point. Kerry is suffering from an atheist book backlash. As he delves more into atheism, his faith will suffer. Next, unfortunately, he will be calling for evidence that the church is true. It is all a step in the process. The good news is: if he left the church, he will come back as Don Bradley has done along with other academics who have delved in new ageism etc.

Well.......... actually, the only nit I have with this is that atheism is nothing like new ageism......

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I do think it's true that we all have "something" that makes us feel a little different from the rest. Hopefully, at some point, we can learn to appreciate those unique challenges. We all have things to learn....and something to give.

Nice thought Libs.......