A Wrathful God

[divinenature]

Well... God has laws. And killing someone against His will is what He considers Murder. So... there you go. God does not go by the legal definition of the land in which a person is living but He does command us to do so.

And we know who god wants killed and who ke doesn't want killed....how?

[CASteinman]

We should be joyful. We should most definitely be horrified.

These are contradictory feelings regarding essentially the same act. Thus ... an interestingly difficult question.

[CASteinman]

And we know who god wants killed and who ke doesn't want killed....how?

Because He says.

[divinenature]

Because He says.

How?

Oh, and I saw that you edited one of your answers after I had read it. You cite LDS.org as your source for how the word kill should be interpreted.

Edited July 29, 2012 by divinenature

[CASteinman]

How?

Chiefly by Revelation. To Prophets.

[divinenature]

Chiefly by Revelation. To Prophets.

How are these revelations received? Are the people who receive them infallable? How can we tell the difference between a revelation to kill a human and mental illness?

[CASteinman]

How are these revelations received? Are the people who receive them infallable? How can we tell the difference between a revelation to kill a human and mental illness?

They are received in a variety of ways. I would recommend that you read the Scriptures.

You can tell the difference between a revelation to kill a human being and mental illness because a mental illness is not revelation by God.

[Calm]

These are contradictory feelings regarding essentially the same act. Thus ... an interestingly difficult question.

Actually no.

Christ died. That was his action. That is the act for which we have joy.

He was murdered. That was through the action of his murderers. That is the act for which we should have horror.

Again, confusing to the two, the ones who acted and the one who was acted upon and did not resist as he could have, teaches us nothing.

[CASteinman]

Actually no.

Christ died. That was his action. That is the act for which we have joy.

He was murdered. That was through the action of his murderers. That is the act for which we should have horror.

Again, confusing to the two, the ones who acted and the one who was acted upon and did not resist as he could have, teaches us nothing.

Was he actually murdered? He says that He was not (though I am sure the intent was to murder Him). But He said "No man taketh my life from Me -- but I lay it down of Myself".

[Calm]

Was he actually murdered? He says that He was not (though I am sure the intent was to murder Him). But He said "No man taketh my life from Me -- but I lay it down of Myself".

IOW, he allowed them to act upon him when he could have cause their act to be without effect.

I am assuming you don't believe he climbed up on the cross himself, nailed his own hands, pierces his own side, etc. It was these acts that led to his death even if he was the one who allowed them to have an effect on him....unless you are of the opinion that they had nothing to do with his death, which would seem to make his suffering without meaning, just a act of some play.

They certainly tortured him. Are we supposed to be joyful about that as well?

Edited July 29, 2012 by calmoriah

[CASteinman]

IOW, he allowed them to act upon him when he could have cause their act to be without effect.

I am assuming you don't believe he climbed up on the cross himself, nailed his own hands, pierces his own side, etc. It was these acts that led to his death even if he was the one who allowed them to have an effect on him....unless you are of the opinion that they had nothing to do with his death, which would seem to make his suffering without meaning, just a act of some play.

They certainly tortured him. Are we supposed to be joyful about that as well?

I believe that they tortured Him. I do not believe that they killed Him despite trying. I believe He controlled that.

[Calm]

I believe that they tortured Him. I do not believe that they killed Him despite trying. I believe He controlled that.

So you saying that he stopped his own heart, that he was invulnerable to their actions as far as death was concerned and therefore had to kill himself...basically commited suicide?

I don't believe that. I believe they killed him, that he allowed them to kill him as he could have stopped it as he could have called down angels from heaven if he chose to throw himself off the mountain as Satan urged him to do.

Either he was able to experience all things that man is able to experience, to be fully man and thus be able to be killed by one's fellow man or I believe his life would be a meaningless act, he was just pretending to be one of us, but wasn't really.

Edited July 29, 2012 by calmoriah

[divinenature]

They are received in a variety of ways. I would recommend that you read the Scriptures.

You can tell the difference between a revelation to kill a human being and mental illness because a mental illness is not revelation by God.

Circular reasoning.

There are many people who believe that god told them to kill someone. How do you know they aren't telling the truth? Or are you open to the possibility that they are? How do you know Nephi wasn't mentally ill when he heard voices telling him to assassinate Laban?

[CASteinman]

So you saying that he stopped his own heart, that he was invulnerable to their actions as far as death was concerned and therefore had to kill himself...basically commited suicide?

Not exactly sure how it worked but I accept His words -- that no one killed Him, that no one was able to take His life from Him. That he laid down His life.

I believe that was a necessary part of His nature -- that He had the Power to die and He had the Power to resist death.

Here is what James E. Talmadge said regarding this:

A natural effect of His immortal origin, as the earth-born Son of an immortal Sire, was that He was immune to death except as He surrendered thereto. The life of Jesus the Christ could not be taken save as He willed and allowed. The power to lay down His life was inherent in Himself, as was the power to take up His slain body in an immortalized state.

And here is now Bruce McConkie put it:

From God who is his Father he inherited the power of immortality, the power to live forever. An immortal Being cannot die. No man can take his life from him. From Mary, who is his mother, he inherited the power of mortality, the power to separate body and spirit, the power to die. All mortal beings die; all lay down their lives in death. Jesus only of all mankind—Jesus, the Son of the living God; Jesus, the Son of the mortal Virgin—this One Man of all men had power to live or to die; and having chosen to die, he had power to live again in glorious immortality, never again to see death.

[CASteinman]

Circular reasoning.

Oh Gosh! Whatever shall I do?

[Calm]

He surrendered thereto

IOW, he allowed others to kill him though he could have prevented it, he did not kill himself. Edited July 29, 2012 by calmoriah

[CASteinman]

IOW, he allowed others to kill him though he could have prevented it, he did not kill himself.

I am not trying to get you to change any beliefs you have on this. But He said that "No man takes his life from Him". Yet He died and according to Him it was by His own Power that He died.

As I said, I am not qualified to say how this works, but I accept His words on this. If He says that no one took his life from Him, I believe Him.

[blackstrap]

Let's consider an alternate ending. Christ is accepted as the Messiah by the people AND the leaders of the Jews. Even the Romans recognize Him as a King and give Him all of the area to rule over. Christ reaches the ripe old age of 100 without so much as a hair on His head disturbed. Now what?

What if the captain of the guard that came to get Christ had paried Peter's blow and in the process decapitated Christ?I'm pretty sure that the Sanhedren would not have rasied much of a fuss and would have smoothed it all over with the Romans.The suffering that began in the Garden would have ended there,unfinished. Mind you ,the sight of Christ standing there headless and reaching down to put everthing back in order ,might have generated a bit of a conversation around the guard's lunch table for a few days.

What I am saying is that there was a reason for His MANNER of death.

Edited July 29, 2012 by blackstrap

[mapman]

Why do you look at death as punishment? It is only punishment to the unrepentant. To all others it is a reward.

The Bible portrays these incidents as being punishment (see 1 Samuel 15:2-3 for example). In any case, this life is an important time for us to learn and so taking someone else's life away is an extremely serious action. Also, getting killed violently tends to be very painful and distressing, especially when your family and friends are also getting killed around you.

[Libs]

Some of us look at death as awful. From the vantage point of God I imagine it is barely a blip on the screen. This is just another form of "If God were a loving just God why does he allow _______ (fill in the blank).

I wanted to get back to this, because I think it is much more than God just "allowing" something to happen. People in the Bible claim he is the "cause" and the reason for these "killings". He ordered them. That is much different than simply allowing bad things to happen.

[Libs]

As for punishment, yes, particularly in mainstream Christianity, these wrathful killings are associated with eternal punishment.

[Libs]

Now, I need to go back and read the whole thread. I am way behind!

[The Nehor]

God alone is capable of anger and wrath without malice or hatred. I have never seen a mortal pull off this trick. The vengeance of God does not bring to Him the dark pleasure we find in revenge.

[Libs]

I can understand the concept of the necessity of death for the purpose of learning and progression because I have seen people so locked into one way of viewing or doing things that nothing will change them in this lifetime (I am assuming there are ways to affect such a hardened person in the next life even though it has been taught that in some ways change is more difficult in the next life than in this one). If an entire society is this way such that any children raised in that society are fated to continue the locked in tradition, then in the past when most societies were not capable of taking in massive amounts of children unable to care for themselves, there would be the necessity of removing the entire society at the same time rather than saving the children for them to only die of neglect not having anyone to care for them.

However, I do not understand the methods claimed for it in the OT. I could see a loving God simply having everyone's heart (without the sometimes attendant pain) stopping at the same time so there was no pain or fear involved, perhaps most dying in sleep. I can almost see first having people realize that a prophecy of a flood or some other disaster is coming true (and thus there is a God, etc.), having the experience of fear and death to work on their mind about the consequences of sin, etc. so as to speed repentance in the spirit world. It is an effective teaching method (though not on the children who wouldn't make the connection..at least not until they learned as spirits) where necessary to first instil respect or even fear to control extreme unwanted behaviour and then move on as the individual learns self-discipline to avoid suffering, to more positive methods of learning.....however, teaching through actual violence as in death by someone coming at you with a sword is NOT an effective method. I just don't see the horror of being murdered, massacred or executed being able to be used in such a way, instead it would seem to me to more likely make it more difficult for them to 'see the light' and repent. Plus there is the effect of being the "hand of the Lord" in such an action. It is one thing if those doing the executions are the wicked, already past redemption at this point in their mortality (and having to wait until the next one to humble themselves and repent) or perhaps like those who were slaughtering the people of Limhi, the faith of their victims might touch their hearts and souls and cause the repentance to happen in this life....but I really don't see how enacting genocide is a good thing for the people of God to be participating in as surely it would tend to give them a disrespect for human life and would tend to cause them to look on others as "other" and not as their brothers and sisters, all children of God.

So I am quite open to the idea that the genocides in the OT are more about political justifications than obedience.

Thank you, Calmoriah. I really loved this post.

[The Nehor]

I admit I am also baffled somewhat by the horror we feel at violent death. I think our repugnance to it was given by God so that we wouldn't want to be the cause of it but pretending it is a horrible way to die seems inconsistent with the facts. Given the choice of dying with a bullet in the head or a sword stroke or in an earthquake and dying of old age I would choose the former. Even if the former left me wounded and it took me an hour or so of pain to die in I think I would still choose it. Unless you live to the end of the Millenium or are translated you are going to die and there aren't many pleasant paths out of this life. The wrath of God seems to be the easiest way.

The reason I doubt the Old Testament stories of God egging on his people to genocide seems to me untrue on several fronts:

1. Historically it looks unlikely that they happened.

2. Usually God seems to take his vengeance into his own hands.

3. Aggressive war was not likely to be good for the souls of the Israelites. Scriptures seem to make it clear that only the wicked (and sometimes a small group of righteous who happen to live amongst them) fight wars. It is a punishment when it happens. Zion doesn't go to battle.

4. The guy who made the Israelite census numbers ridiculous were surely not above lying about the glorious history of his people and exaggerating it. One wants to pray for his soul if he thought upping the kill count of his people was glorifying God.