A Wrathful God

[The Nehor]

I think it's entirely possible that, either, man has attributed some things to God that were not of God...or that I am wrong... and God really does have a bad temper.

Not a bad temper. He states more then once that He is slow to anger.

[CASteinman]

Not a bad temper. He states more then once that He is slow to anger.

By definition a good anger.

[The Nehor]

Well....no where, in the "fruits of the spirit" is anger or vengeance mentioned. So, we might take a clue from that?

Anger is not a positive emotion and is not a fruit of the Spirit but anger is not always evil. See Jesus making a whip and forcing people out of the Temple for one case.

[Libs]

Not a bad temper. He states more then once that He is slow to anger.

Yes, I know. I was being facetious.

Anger is not a positive emotion and is not a fruit of the Spirit but anger is not always evil. See Jesus making a whip and forcing people out of the Temple for one case.

But, Jesus never killed anyone. As a matter of fact, he allowed himself to be killed.

Do you believe that God killed off almost the whole world, at one point? And, instructed his prophets to commit genocide on whole nations?

[CASteinman]

Do you believe that God killed off almost the whole world, at one point? And, instructed his prophets to commit genocide on whole nations?

I do believe that God has overseen the death and destruction of people and cities. I don't know about the flood, but I accept that God could order the destruction of a people -- by natural disaster or at the hands of people.

Incidentally, I am very pleased... extremely pleased .. to never have been on the receiving end of such an order -- either as a person to perform the act or as someone for whom the sentence of death had to be passed upon.

I hope that I shall remain in that mode.

Edited July 30, 2012 by CASteinman

[ERayR]

Serious death and distruction coming as the end times progress. IMNSHO it will eclipse a few small Canaanite towns. Maybe in your lifetime.

[CASteinman]

Serious death and distruction coming as the end times progress. IMNSHO it will eclipse a few small Canaanite towns. Maybe in your lifetime.

I am sad you might be right. I hope that no one I know.. and no one who knows anyone I know will have to face it.

[ERayR]

I am sad you might be right. I hope that no one I know.. and no one who knows anyone I know will have to face it.

I would have the same hope but with what I think I understand none will wholly escape.

[blackstrap]

I know that each death is important to someone,but we should look at the big picture. 56 million people die every year worldwide. That's about 150,000 each day. Perhaps 40% are attributed to man,his wars,his bad habits etc. Who gets the blame for the rest? God? To be born is to sign your own death warrant.It's a good thing that it isn't permanent,and it well could have been.

[ERayR]

I know that each death is important to someone,but we should look at the big picture. 56 million people die every year worldwide. That's about 150,000 each day. Perhaps 40% are attributed to man,his wars,his bad habits etc. Who gets the blame for the rest? God? To be born is to sign your own death warrant.It's a good thing that it isn't permanent,and it well could have been.

God gets the blame for all of them. How many times have you heard "How can a just God let this happen"?

[CASteinman]

I guess, I am not so concerned about me or my family dying -- as that is just going to happen -- as I am concerned about the manner of the last few weeks, days and hours.

I must admit though, that it does not seem -- even in our sanitary world where we get to shuffle off our dying to behind the clean doors of a hospital or a nursing home -- that things typically go easy.

[blackstrap]

We hear that alot. Seems like most people ,if asked to vote again,would choose Satan's plan,just for security.

[The Nehor]

But, Jesus never killed anyone. As a matter of fact, he allowed himself to be killed.

Do you believe that God killed off almost the whole world, at one point? And, instructed his prophets to commit genocide on whole nations?

True, though he did blast a lying fig tree. I imagine that if the situation called for it he might have.

If you are referring to the Flood or the Nephite destruction then yes. I also believe he will do it again when he comes again in glory. For there to be a Millenium the wicked must be removed. In an ideal world the wicked would repent. Prophecy and human experience has taught me that this is unlikely. Then again I believe that the death of the wicked who have filled the cup of God's wrath is a mercy to them. It is not something to be praised or gloried in but it is necessary. It cuts off their ability to sin and begins their preparation for whatever glory they can qualify for.

I do not believe that the commands in the Torah ordering the Israelites to wipe out all the inhabitants of the Promised Land came from God.

[Libs]

True, though he did blast a lying fig tree. I imagine that if the situation called for it he might have.

If you are referring to the Flood or the Nephite destruction then yes. I also believe he will do it again when he comes again in glory. For there to be a Millenium the wicked must be removed. In an ideal world the wicked would repent. Prophecy and human experience has taught me that this is unlikely. Then again I believe that the death of the wicked who have filled the cup of God's wrath is a mercy to them. It is not something to be praised or gloried in but it is necessary. It cuts off their ability to sin and begins their preparation for whatever glory they can qualify for.

I do not believe that the commands in the Torah ordering the Israelites to wipe out all the inhabitants of the Promised Land came from God.

Thanks for the response, Nehor. At least, we agree about the Israelites. I am unsure about the rest. Is your belief about the Torah a common belief for LDS? I've never really talked about this, much, that I recall...at least, not much in depth.

[CASteinman]

Thanks for the response, Nehor. At least, we agree about the Israelites. I am unsure about the rest. Is your belief about the Torah a common belief for LDS? I've never really talked about this, much, that I recall...at least, not much in depth.

I believe it is uncommon but I do not know of any polls.

[Libs]

Maybe I should do a poll of people here? I've never done a poll.

[The Nehor]

Thanks for the response, Nehor. At least, we agree about the Israelites. I am unsure about the rest. Is your belief about the Torah a common belief for LDS? I've never really talked about this, much, that I recall...at least, not much in depth.

I have no idea. I'm a bit out of the loop. I've been teaching or attending Gospel Principles for many years now and the last time I went through the Old Testament in Gospel Doctrine I taught it.

[Libs]

Well, that must have been an interesting class.

[why me]

Well....no where, in the "fruits of the spirit" is anger or vengeance mentioned. So, we might take a clue from that?

I don't know how to deal with the old testament since it seems that god is a god of anger and vengeance. What does Vengeance is mine saith the lord mean?

However, since I am a sinner of course it would be more bearable to know that god is a god of love and kindness and understands me. It certainly makes me live with my sins more peacefully. But I see no proof of this kind of kindness in the bible with sinners, like me. What do you think?

[why me]

I have no idea. I'm a bit out of the loop. I've been teaching or attending Gospel Principles for many years now and the last time I went through the Old Testament in Gospel Doctrine I taught it.

If we compare the god of the old testament with the god of the new testament we perhaps can see a god with two extremes. I am just glad to be living in new testament times.

[The Nehor]

If we compare the god of the old testament with the god of the new testament we perhaps can see a god with two extremes. I am just glad to be living in new testament times.

I think both extremes exist all the time. In fact in many ways I find the New Testament scarier. The story of the Sheep and the Goats, the commandment given to the rich man who asked what he lacked, the command to be able to hate your own family for God's sake.

Jesus was amazingly tender and compassionate but his severity seems almost intolerable.

[Libs]

I don't know how to deal with the old testament since it seems that god is a god of anger and vengeance. What does Vengeance is mine saith the lord mean?

I don't really know, but I think it could mean that God, alone, is our judge.

However, since I am a sinner of course it would be more bearable to know that god is a god of love and kindness and understands me. It certainly makes me live with my sins more peacefully. But I see no proof of this kind of kindness in the bible with sinners, like me. What do you think?

Actually, I do see evidence of that kind of kindness coming from Jesus, all over the New Testament. The adulteress, who was to be stoned. The many, many people who were healed (and some of them didn't even say "thank you"...like the several lepers he healed). The woman with an issue of blood. Martha, who was judgmental. Even his disciples, who were, at times, skeptics, afraid and even denied him. And, last of all, he asked Heavenly Father to forgive those who had caused him so much pain (for they know not what they do). So, yes, I see a very loving and kind God, in Jesus.

[Libs]

Please, everyone, vote in my poll, if you would. Thanks!!

[The Nehor]

Actually, I do see evidence of that kind of kindness coming from Jesus, all over the New Testament. The adulteress, who was to be stoned. The many, many people who were healed (and some of them didn't even say "thank you"...like the several lepers he healed). The woman with an issue of blood. Martha, who was judgmental. Even his disciples, who were, at times, skeptics, afraid and even denied him. And, last of all, he asked Heavenly Father to forgive those who had caused him so much pain (for they know not what they do). So, yes, I see a very loving and kind God, in Jesus.

I see a sharp divide. With those who were penitent he gave them encouragement or (in some cases) just forgived them outright. With those who were not he was merciless and even insulting. Probably a lesson in there.

[Calm]

I see a sharp divide. With those who were penitent he gave them encouragement or (in some cases) just forgived them outright. With those who were not he was merciless and even insulting. Probably a lesson in there.

In the end, when he asked forgiveness for those who did not know what they were doing, they were not penitent and yet he asked they be forgiven.

I think it ties into the "Vengeance is mine saith the lord". To me that means we are not to seek after vengeance for ourselves as it would be inappropriate because we don't know the whole story behind others' actions. Only God, who knows the intent of hearts and the history of people's lives---what they been taught and what they haven't been taught or weren't capable of learning---can engage in righteous and appropriate vengeance.

I also think that what we might see as the vengeance of God isn't always what we think it is. We have no way of knowing what happens to the individual's spirit and awareness while their body may be undergoing physical pain. I've seen cases where it seems the spirit or person of the individual isn't all there anymore do to physical damage to their body (through trauma, old age, even medication's side effects), if the spirit or whatever it is that makes a person the individual s/he is can 'sleep' for lack of a better explanation or term for those reasons, I think it may be possible that it either happens naturally as a self defense mechanism in some extreme cases or the Lord causes it to happen when there is no need for that experience for the individual involved. Speculation, of course. The only evidence I've really seen for it is in children who seem to be untouched after a certain distance of time even after going through some pretty awful health issues. Perhaps the eagerness of some women to have more than one child is a result of this type of veil as well.