mapman Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 Does the church have any policies restricting those who are openly homosexual from having a calling such as a young men leader?
Gillebre Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 I don't know.But consider this: does the church have any policies restricting those who are openly heterosexual from having a calling such as a young women leader?just food for thought.
rpn Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 It is easier to have the black and white rule, that never comes to a council's attention until or unless there is controversy. As others have pointed out, there have been young men who identified as gay who were boy scouts and who got their eagle. It just didn't come up. And no doubt there are men in good standing in the LDS church who identify themselves as gay who serve in young men leadership positions that make them at least merit badge counselors and committee chair, if not scoutmasters. Their ssa just never becomes an issue. This way, there is a hard and fast rule that is enforced WHEN it comes to the council's attention. And I would say it is as important to preclude gay men from going to over night camps as it is to preclude women from doing so --- and in the LDS church women are so precluded.
David T Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Does the church have any policies restricting those who are openly homosexual from having a calling such as a young men leader?Yes - this was discussed a month or so ago. This (the BSA position) is, IMO, most likely the reason for that policy.Although I don't see the reason for the BSA to have it, especially with its strongly enforced 2-Deep Leadership rules.Oh, and women do work as leaders with the Cub Scouts.
ERayR Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 My thoughts exactly. It's just going to open the door to more hate crimes.You do have a flare for hyperbole.
Pahoran Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 I had no idea the BSA excluded gays. I'm actually a bit shocked and I don't think any Latter-day Saint should support their decision.Perhaps they just don't want the Boy Scouts to turn into an American reincarnation of the German Wandervogel movement.Because, in case you're not aware, that didn't turn out so well.Regards,Pahoran
bluebell Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 I don't know.But consider this: does the church have any policies restricting those who are openly heterosexual from having a calling such as a young women leader?just food for thought.I don't understand your point here. Could you clarify?
omni Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 I'm not sure how I feels about homosexuals being able to serve as leaders, after all I wouldn't support male leaders for girl scouts. However not allowing homosexuals as scouts is nothing short of wrong. Imagine a young faithful LDS boy in a ward who is living the law of chastity but is excluded from scouting activities simply because he's gay. Scouting activities are often discussed in young mens at church. What are leaders supposed to do say, "alright everybody looking forward to camping this weekend, well that is of course for Steve who won't be attending for obvious reasons."
Buzzard Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 I'm not sure how I feels about homosexuals being able to serve as leaders, after all I wouldn't support male leaders for girl scouts. However not allowing homosexuals as scouts is nothing short of wrong. Imagine a young faithful LDS boy in a ward who is living the law of chastity but is excluded from scouting activities simply because he's gay. Scouting activities are often discussed in young mens at church. What are leaders supposed to do say, "alright everybody looking forward to camping this weekend, well that is of course for Steve who won't be attending for obvious reasons."Young men of age 12-14 may suspect that they have SSA feelings, but to call any 12 year old boy gay because of some SSA issues is a disservice to the boy, and I seriously doubt that the Boy Scouts have ever acted against a young man for discussing his feelings with an adult at that age. I am aware of a couple of 17 year olds who were asked to leave the scouts for coming out, but I'm pretty sure they were sexually active. Now a boy who is initiating sexual contact with other young men, you are darn tootin' I would want him excluded. I you think that makes me a bigot, so be it. Better that than an innocent boy be seduced by an predator of any age.
Calm Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 My exBIL (now dead of complications due to AIDS) was raped at a boy scout jamboree. I also know of a few other men who stated their first homosexual encounters were through boy scouts with leaders and older scouts who were helping out. It happens and it is understandable that leaders would want to decrease the possibility of rape and/or seduction and possibly promotion of homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle if this is contrary to their moral position as much as possible with (as they see them) reasonable precautions. Whether or not disallowing proclaimed homosexual leaders actually decreases the possibility is probably debatable since I don't know of any stats that could be used to support this one way or the other. Since the deliberations were confidential IIRC, I don't think anyone can really draw any conclusions on whether or not they were emotionally driven or based on faulty stats or anything else.
Damien the Leper Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Young men of age 12-14 may suspect that they have SSA feelings, but to call any 12 year old boy gay because of some SSA issues is a disservice to the boy, and I seriously doubt that the Boy Scouts have ever acted against a young man for discussing his feelings with an adult at that age. I am aware of a couple of 17 year olds who were asked to leave the scouts for coming out, but I'm pretty sure they were sexually active. Now a boy who is initiating sexual contact with other young men, you are darn tootin' I would want him excluded. I you think that makes me a bigot, so be it. Better that than an innocent boy be seduced by an predator of any age.I agree. However, it would probably be best to not have any person with SSA participate in such activities so as to avoid any temptation to sin.
Calm Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 I agree. However, it would probably be best to not have any person with SSA participate in such activities so as to avoid any temptation to sin.I think there are precautions that can be taken so everyone is comfortable, especially those scouts with SSA so that they can concentrate on having fun with scouting and not get distracted worrying about possible occurrences of SSA.
california boy Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 I don't know.But consider this: does the church have any policies restricting those who are openly heterosexual from having a calling such as a young women leader?just food for thought.I know you are going to be shocked by this, but straight men are recruited to help with girls camp each summer. Yikes. Does the church know this? They should be recruiting gay men to help out with girls camp don't you think?just food for thought.
selek1 Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Of course not! The BSA doesn't need gay leaders telling straight or gay scouts that it's okay to be gay.Considering that one of the purposes of the Boy Scout movement is to teach boys and young men morality, and moral courage, you could not be more correct if you tried.
sjdawg Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 I just kind of wonder if they think that Gays and pedophiles are one and the same. Pedophiles I can see not being allowed in! I can see the litigation aspect of it thoughI'm not so sure they have done a good job of excluding pedophiles under their current policies.
sjdawg Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 From my research, the BSA does not grant membership to any homosexual individual, according to a 2012 press release. That seems to include both leaders and non-leaders.Great. Gay Youth needed one more place where they aren't accepted.
Damien the Leper Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Considering that one of the purposes of the Boy Scout movement is to teach boys and young men morality, and moral courage, you could not be more correct if you tried.That is exactly the point I'm getting at. Why corrupt a longstanding conservatively moraled institution with the agenda of the camp that seeks to legitimize sin? It reminds me of the time that I sought this agenda for the LDS church. It is a useless and baseless endeavor.Self reflection: How embarrassing it is that I speak of that agenda as though it were long ago...
Buzzard Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Great. Gay Youth needed one more place where they aren't accepted.Oh, puh-leeze. How many 13 year olds are all worked up about sexual identity? The "Gay Youth" you are referring to are usually college age, or at least towards the end of High School, and while a few of them are active in Scouting, most are not by that age. They may nominally be part of a Venturing crew if they are in a priests quorum, but my experience is that by that age they have a job and other interests.A 13 year old who calls himself gay (IMHO), and is active LDS and thus participates in scouting, is about as likely to appear as a pink unicorn.
Damien the Leper Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Oh, puh-leeze. How many 13 year olds are all worked up about sexual identity? The "Gay Youth" you are referring to are usually college age, or at least towards the end of High School, and while a few of them are active in Scouting, most are not by that age. They may nominally be part of a Venturing crew if they are in a priests quorum, but my experience is that by that age they have a job and other interests.A 13 year old who calls himself gay (IMHO), and is active LDS and thus participates in scouting, is about as likely to appear as a pink unicornThis is not unheard of. There was a young man in my Stake who was a few years older than myself at the time who informed his bishop, at the age of 14, that he was gay. I do know that he went on to complete his Eagle. But the reason we know of this story is because the Bishop spoke of sexual immorality at stake conference. However, the point that the Bishop was making concerning the topic was that self identifying as such is not the problem and that an individual need not consult a professional for a sexual identity diagnosis (which even I'll admit is completely stupid to think or propose). But the problem would arise when the individual would act on their sexual desires.From my personal experience, I was around 5-7 yrs old when I was able to recognize something was different about me. Later, while in the 8th grade, I was able to make a conclusion about my sexual orientation.It would be inappropriate to undermine what a child or adolescent could be stressing about.
Glenn101 Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Beyond the moral implications which the Boy Scouts espouse, there are some practical implications that need to be addressed. Would any of you send a man out camping with a group of girl scouts???The issue is not one of pedophilia and whether a gay man is more prone to pedophilia than a straight person. I don't think that such has been proven. The question, to me, do you allow a person to go out with a group of people that are coming into the age group where they are becoming sexually attractive??? Boy scouts are of the years mostly twelve and over. All of them may not be attractive to one with SSA, (acne, pimples, etc.), but I dare say that there are many young men of that age group that a person with SSA would find attractive sexually. Just as there are many teenage girls that many men would find sexually attractive.Glenn
USU78 Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 My thoughts exactly. It's just going to open the door to more hate crimes.Just what in the world are you saying, T? That having a private institution hold the line against what its adherents believe is immoral intrusion encourages its adherents to commit violence against the immoral?If that's what you're saying, I've gotta say that that is about as silly a bit of nonsense as I've heard in many a day.
USU78 Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 From my research, the BSA does not grant membership to any homosexual individual, according to a 2012 press release. That seems to include both leaders and non-leaders.". . . mentally awake and morally straight."
Tacenda Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Just what in the world are you saying, T? That having a private institution hold the line against what its adherents believe is immoral intrusion encourages its adherents to commit violence against the immoral?If that's what you're saying, I've gotta say that that is about as silly a bit of nonsense as I've heard in many a day.It was the first thing that popped in my head, and I typed away. I guess I've seen hate crimes against gays and believe this would give them (the hater) a green light, however small, that gays are not to be trusted.
KevinG Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 I'm not so sure they have done a good job of excluding pedophiles under their current policies.Learn before you spout. http://www.scouting.org/Training/YouthProtection.aspx
KevinG Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 In almost 25 years of being a Scout Leader and father I have rarely witnessed the topic of sexuality come up at any event. When it does it is usually the 15 y/o group talking about coming up on dating age and the discussions revolve around standards for the Youth.I would be very opposed to a heterosexual leader who felt exhibiting or teaching about sexuality openly was appropriate for a Scout activity.
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