Bsa Unanimously Reaffirms Homosexual Ban

[Damien the Leper]

I would hope that I would be kindly removed as scout from the BSA solely based on my SSA. I have no business being in a situation in which temptation and the propensity to sin could be a serious risk. This is also why, had I applied, I would prefer to be refused the privilege to serve a mission. There is no reason to put myself, let alone others, at risk for any kind of sexual sin.

[Calm]

I would hope that I would be kindly removed as scout from the BSA solely based on my SSA. I have no business being in a situation in which temptation and the propensity to sin could be a serious risk. This is also why, had I applied, I would prefer to be refused the privilege to serve a mission. There is no reason to put myself, let alone others, at risk for any kind of sexual sin.

I think it is a wise and prudent course to remove oneself from situations where harm can occur, especially when others are at risk. I have never come close to being in an accident of my own making driving (got rearended at a stop sign once so not even defensive driving could have help there, first day driver too poor thing), but because of my sleep issues, I avoid driving at all times I think there might be even a hint of a risk of me not being fully aware and if at all possible I always drive with someone else with me just in case. I have banned myself from driving for years at times because of my caution. I look on a car as a deadly weapon. If I had other weaknesses that put others at risk, I would be as cautious.

[Glenn101]

I know you are going to be shocked by this, but straight men are recruited to help with girls camp each summer. Yikes. Does the church know this? They should be recruiting gay men to help out with girls camp don't you think?

just food for thought.

In the wards and branches I have attended, it has always been husband and wife teams that have been recruited. I do not recall a situation where single men or men without their wives have been recruited to help out at the girls' camps.

Glenn

[Nofear]

In the wards and branches I have attended, it has always been husband and wife teams that have been recruited. I do not recall a situation where single men or men without their wives have been recruited to help out at the girls' camps.

Nonetheless, it can and does happen. The required priesthood presence at young women camp does not need to have a direct association with the young women program. Church policy adds no requirements. More convenient, certainly, if it is a connection and/or wife there though.

In related news, NPR had a radio bit this morning where a lesbian den mother (has a 7 year-old cub) was removed and she got boxes of signatures to appeal. The news editors didn't seem to be particularly pleased with the BSA policy. /surprise

[Tacenda]

Nonetheless, it can and does happen. The required priesthood presence at young women camp does not need to have a direct association with the young women program. Church policy adds no requirements. More convenient, certainly, if it is a connection and/or wife there though.

In related news, NPR had a radio bit this morning where a lesbian den mother (has a 7 year-old cub) was removed and she got boxes of signatures to appeal. The news editors didn't seem to be particularly pleased with the BSA policy. /surprise

I'm aware of that lesbian den mother. It broke my heart for her and her 7 year old. I really do feel BSA are grouping all gay people together, and saying they are possible perpetraters. If that is the case why not group heterosexuals, because I'm sure they are equally apt to be pedophiles. But as some have said, BSA is a private entity and can and will do whatever they want.

[USU78]

It was the first thing that popped in my head, and I typed away. I guess I've seen hate crimes against gays and believe this would give them (the hater) a green light, however small, that gays are not to be trusted.

All narcissists can be trusted to do what they think, in this instant of time, is in their best interests.

[ERayR]

Nonetheless, it can and does happen. The required priesthood presence at young women camp does not need to have a direct association with the young women program. Church policy adds no requirements. More convenient, certainly, if it is a connection and/or wife there though.

I don't know what you are trying to say here but Church policy requires male participation be 2 deep. 2 unrelated males together or else husband and wife.

[ERayR]

I'm aware of that lesbian den mother. It broke my heart for her and her 7 year old. I really do feel BSA are grouping all gay people together, and saying they are possible perpetraters. If that is the case why not group heterosexuals, because I'm sure they are equally apt to be pedophiles. But as some have said, BSA is a private entity and can and will do whatever they want.

How about the BSA is an organization doing everything they know how to protect boys who participate in scouts.

[ERayR]

I'm aware of that lesbian den mother. It broke my heart for her and her 7 year old. I really do feel BSA are grouping all gay people together, and saying they are possible perpetraters. If that is the case why not group heterosexuals, because I'm sure they are equally apt to be pedophiles. But as some have said, BSA is a private entity and can and will do whatever they want.

It is often difficult and unfair but the actions of the parents do affect the opportunities of the children.

[Damien the Leper]

I don't really understand why all the angst over this decision. For those who disagree with the decision, is it just another narcissistic attempt to promote legitimizing sin and the all encompassing Homosexual/Leftist agenda? If you don't like the decision then don't participate in any way.

[Buzzard]

Exorcizamus te, omnis immundus spiritus, omnis satanica potestas, omnis incursio infernalis adversarii, omnis legio, omnis congregatio et secta diabolica...Ergo, draco maledicte et omnis legio diabolica, adjuramus te ... cessa decipere humanas creaturas, eisque æternæ perditionìs venenum propinare...Vade, satana, inventor et magister omnis fallaciæ, hostis humanæ salutis...Humiliare sub potenti manu Dei; contremisce et effuge, invocato a nobis sancto et terribili nomine... quem inferi tremunt...Ab insidiis diaboli, libera nos, Domine.Ut Ecclesiam tuam secura tibi facias libertate servire, te rogamus, audi nos.

Just for chuckles, I ran your sig line through Google Translate and came up with....

We exorcise you, every impure spirit, every satanic power, every incursion of the infernal adversary, every legion, every congregation and diabolical sect ... Therefore, accursed dragon and every diabolical legion, we adjure thee ... Cease to deceive human creatures, and give to them the poison of eternal damnation to drink ... Go, Satan, inventor and master of all deceit, enemy of human salvation ... Be humble under the mighty hand of God; tremble and flee when we invoke the Holy and Terrible Name ... which those down below tremble ... From the snares of the devil, deliver us, the freedom of Domine.Ut Your Church safe to do to serve you, we beseech Thee, hear us.

Undo edits

Sorry if this hijacks the thread, but curiosity overcame me.

[Traela]

I'm aware of that lesbian den mother. It broke my heart for her and her 7 year old. I really do feel BSA are grouping all gay people together, and saying they are possible perpetraters. If that is the case why not group heterosexuals, because I'm sure they are equally apt to be pedophiles. But as some have said, BSA is a private entity and can and will do whatever they want.

She demonstrated her disregard for men by deliberately choosing to deprive her kids of a father. Why should she be allowed to be a den mother?

[Damien the Leper]

Exorcizamus te, omnis immundus spiritus, omnis satanica potestas, omnis incursio infernalis adversarii, omnis legio, omnis congregatio et secta diabolica...Ergo, draco maledicte et omnis legio diabolica, adjuramus te ... cessa decipere humanas creaturas, eisque æternæ perditionìs venenum propinare...Vade, satana, inventor et magister omnis fallaciæ, hostis humanæ salutis...Humiliare sub potenti manu Dei; contremisce et effuge, invocato a nobis sancto et terribili nomine... quem inferi tremunt...Ab insidiis diaboli, libera nos, Domine.Ut Ecclesiam tuam secura tibi facias libertate servire, te rogamus, audi nos.

Just for chuckles, I ran your sig line through Google Translate and came up with....

We exorcise you, every impure spirit, every satanic power, every incursion of the infernal adversary, every legion, every congregation and diabolical sect ... Therefore, accursed dragon and every diabolical legion, we adjure thee ... Cease to deceive human creatures, and give to them the poison of eternal damnation to drink ... Go, Satan, inventor and master of all deceit, enemy of human salvation ... Be humble under the mighty hand of God; tremble and flee when we invoke the Holy and Terrible Name ... which those down below tremble ... From the snares of the devil, deliver us, the freedom of Domine.Ut Your Church safe to do to serve you, we beseech Thee, hear us.

Undo edits

Sorry if this hijacks the thread, but curiosity overcame me.

No worries. I have a deep and sincere fascination of excorcisms, demonic possession and demonology.

[Calm]

Exorcizamus te, omnis immundus spiritus, omnis satanica potestas, omnis incursio infernalis adversarii, omnis legio, omnis congregatio et secta diabolica...Ergo, draco maledicte et omnis legio diabolica, adjuramus te ... cessa decipere humanas creaturas, eisque æternæ perditionìs venenum propinare...Vade, satana, inventor et magister omnis fallaciæ, hostis humanæ salutis...Humiliare sub potenti manu Dei; contremisce et effuge, invocato a nobis sancto et terribili nomine... quem inferi tremunt...Ab insidiis diaboli, libera nos, Domine.Ut Ecclesiam tuam secura tibi facias libertate servire, te rogamus, audi nos.

Just for chuckles, I ran your sig line through Google Translate and came up with....

We exorcise you, every impure spirit, every satanic power, every incursion of the infernal adversary, every legion, every congregation and diabolical sect ... Therefore, accursed dragon and every diabolical legion, we adjure thee ... Cease to deceive human creatures, and give to them the poison of eternal damnation to drink ... Go, Satan, inventor and master of all deceit, enemy of human salvation ... Be humble under the mighty hand of God; tremble and flee when we invoke the Holy and Terrible Name ... which those down below tremble ... From the snares of the devil, deliver us, the freedom of Domine.Ut Your Church safe to do to serve you, we beseech Thee, hear us.

Undo edits

Sorry if this hijacks the thread, but curiosity overcame me.

There is a latin thread n Social Hall

[california boy]

Los Angeles Times. Boy Scouts' wrong path

Boy Scouts' wrong path

Excluding atheists and gay people is a sad evolution and unnecessary evolution for the the group.

The Boy Scouts of America, an organization once known mainly for welcoming boys to a world of adventure, self-sufficiency and good citizenship, now is more famous for the groups of people it bans: atheists, agnostics and homosexuals.

It's been a sad evolution and an unnecessary one. The Girl Scouts, as well as international Scouting organizations, have carried out their similar missions without resorting to intolerance. By refusing once again this week to admit gay people to its ranks, either as Scouts or leaders, the Boy Scouts may have satisfied some of the religious organizations that sponsor many of its troops, but it risks long-term irrelevance. Participation in its traditional Scouting programs has steadily declined over the last decade, by more than 15%, and is down more than 40% from the early 1970s.

Of course, much of that has nothing to do with the organization's policies that bar atheists and others who decline to take an oath to God, as well as gay people. The number of Girl Scouts has declined too, though not so precipitously. Both groups face more competition from other youth activities than in previous decades. But it's also true that a sizable number of parents will have nothing to do with an organization they view as bigoted.

Some may believe that by banning people who are openly gay, the organization is keeping out sexual predators. But repeated studies have shown how false this assertion is. Besides, if that were the reason, what would be the point of prohibiting a lesbian woman from being a den mother, as the Boy Scouts have done?

The more likely reason is a pragmatic one: The Boy Scouts, unlike the Girl Scouts or international Scouting groups, derive considerable support from religious organizations that take a dim view of homosexuality, especially the Mormon and Roman Catholic churches. Less than 2% of the U.S. population is Mormon, but 15% of Scouts are. The Boy Scouts of America could lose hundreds of thousands of Scouts if it opened its doors to atheists and gay people.

Yet as society grows more accepting of homosexuality, and less willing to overlook discrimination based on sexual orientation, the Boy Scouts will feel increased pressure to become a more tolerant organization. Support from corporations and municipalities might be harder to come by if it doesn't don't change its policies. The organization's marketing logo reads "Prepared. For Life." Unspoken but increasingly obvious are the added words "but only for some."

[sjdawg]

Learn before you spout. http://www.scouting....Protection.aspx

Sure thing

http://news.yahoo.co...s-29958970.html

http://www.edgeonthe...anti-gay_policy_

http://www.reuters.c...E85D1MM20120614

And maybe I'll throw in one from Canada

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/12/09/scouts-.html

[Daniel2]

I don't really understand why all the angst over this decision. For those who disagree with the decision, is it just another narcissistic attempt to promote legitimizing sin and the all encompassing Homosexual/Leftist agenda? If you don't like the decision then don't participate in any way.

The above stance doesn't seem to indicate much compassion for gay youth that are already dealing with feelings of loss, depression, and exclusion. For kids, the issue is far more profound than simply "if you don't like it, don't participate." The policy forces young men to stay in the closet and live with any accompanying stress, isolation, and fear that their own sexuality will be discovered, if they want to participate in scouts. In an era when many are contemplating the reasons and effects of social pressure that results in suicidal behaviors among gay youth, I would hope all of us be more sensative than merely suggesting, "if you don't like it, don't participate." Take, for example, the following account by a young gay man who was also deeply steeped in scouting:

Why the BSA's 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' Policy Matters

Editors' Note: Guest blogger Jeremy Redlien is the author of the blog Queering the Closet and holds a bachelor degree in Philosophy with a minor in Mathematics from SUNY Oneonta.

Everybody should know by now of the homophobic "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy held by the Boy Scouts of America, so I won't spend time rehashing that story. Yesterday the BSA put out a press release, describing a secret committee that they put together for the purpose of "evaluating" said policy. In short, the discriminatory "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is here to stay.

There are those who argue that the policy does not matter, that it is not worth the LGBTQ community fighting. To this I must strongly disagree. The BSA's policy does matter and it does have a negative impact on the LGBTQ community, particularly the youth.

I was a member of the Scouting movement until I turned 18. I came within a few merit badges short of earning the rank of Eagle Scout, which less than 2 percent of all scouts who enrolled in the program complete. In Troop 16 I eventually ended up serving as Senior Patrol Leader, which is essentially the youth leader of the troop. I was also inducted into the Order of the Arrow, Boy Scouts honor society.

Even though as a youth I had known for years about my sexual orientation, I stayed in the closet until I turned 18. My reasoning for doing so had a great deal to do with the Boy Scout's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.

Hiding ones identity always comes with a cost. During my senior year of high school, I worked diligently on completing the final requirements for the rank of Eagle Scout. Deep down, part of me wanted to spite the BSA. To say, "Ha, Ha, you're wrong, we are just as good as you."

It was during my senior year of high school that the hiding took it's toll. The mental dissonance that comes from being told a constant message of "you are inferior, get lost freak" from all authorities wore at me until I finally broke.

While I was in the middle of working on my Eagle Scout Project (which consisted of repairing an old storage shed at the Methodist Church I attended) I attempted to commit suicide.

On the second day of the project, while my mom went to church, I played hookie so I could have some time alone. I got a knife from the kitchen and attempted to slice my wrists.

If there is one thing I am really grateful for being lousy at, it is committing suicide. My mom came home to find me on the kitchen floor, knife in hand. I ended up wearing a baggy long sleeved shirt to cover up the scratches I had made on my wrist. Somehow I managed to complete the Eagle Project, although I would later be unable to finish the requirements for the Eagle Rank itself.

Which brings me to the crux of the matter. No one can tell me that the BSA's policy is not harmful to LGBTQ youth. No one can claim that the message it sends is not without consequences.

While there are signs that things may actually be getting better, LGBTQ youth continue to face bullying and harrassment based upon their sexual orientation. There is no doubt in my mind that the BSA's policy encourages and empowers the bullies in these situations.

Consider as well, the influence the BSA holds in rural areas (such as Upstate New York where I grew up) where LGBTQ organizations are going to be few and far between. It is vital that LGBTQ youth have access to organizations that do tell them that they matter, that their lives are no less than those of their straight counterparts.

When an organization as influential as the BSA tells LGBTQ youth the opposite, that their lives mean less and that it is okay to discriminate based upon sexual orientation, something has to be done.

I'm not going to argue that the LGBTQ community should work towards repealing the BSA "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. That's not the issue I want to bring up. But we cannot allow the BSA to go unchallenged in this issue. Whether this means transforming the BSA into an organization that does not discriminate or by providing viable alternatives in every community across the nation, is another matter.

What does matter is that the BSA's policy exacts a steep price and it is the youth of our community who pay it.

[Daniel2]

Double post.

[Tacenda]

She demonstrated her disregard for men by deliberately choosing to deprive her kids of a father. Why should she be allowed to be a den mother?

I'm sure there are plenty of males around him who'll show him the ropes of masculinity. Usually in situations like that the lesbian goes all out to make sure this will happen. And you can look at the other side....there are alot of single moms who have full responsibility for children because of deadbeat dads. That's just my opinion. Sometimes people need to see there are all types of families out there that make it work. It's not "Leave it to Beaver" anymore. Even in those days we had divorce or situations that called for divorce, abuse etc. I'm not all for the single gal adopting a child and forget the father. But I think there are circumstances that single gays might want to raise a child. Better yet one that can be adopted, especially the ones that are put through the foster care system until they're almost unadoptable. What about those children, would it not be better for children to be adopted, they'd love to have someone to call "mom" or "dad". So many couples want the baby, not the older child or ones with disabilities. Do you see where the gays can adopt a child in this situation?

[Sleeper Cell]

I'm sure there are plenty of males around him who'll show him the ropes of masculinity. Usually in situations like that the lesbian goes all out to make sure this will happen. And you can look at the other side....there are alot of single moms who have full responsibility for children because of deadbeat dads. That's just my opinion. Sometimes people need to see there are all types of families out there that make it work. It's not "Leave it to Beaver" anymore. Even in those days we had divorce or situations that called for divorce, abuse etc. I'm not all for the single gal adopting a child and forget the father. But I think there are circumstances that single gays might want to raise a child. Better yet one that can be adopted, especially the ones that are put through the foster care system until they're almost unadoptable. What about those children, would it not be better for children to be adopted, they'd love to have someone to call "mom" or "dad". So many couples want the baby, not the older child or ones with disabilities. Do you see where the gays can adopt a child in this situation?

Actually, even the two parent “Leave it to Beaver” era families knew that they fell far short of the “Leave it to Beaver” family. Furthermore, they were quite aware of families with single mom’s struggling to raise their children, since (as you point out) “even in those days, we had divorce or [abusive] situations that called for divorce.”

Having said that, I agree with you that there are individual situations where it may be better for the child to be adopted by a single parent or a gay couple. However, it is one thing to make individual exceptions while upholding the traditional family as the ideal. It is quite another to change the ideal, itself.

[Tacenda]

Actually, even the two parent “Leave it to Beaver” era families knew that they fell far short of the “Leave it to Beaver” family. Furthermore, they were quite aware of families with single mom’s struggling to raise their children, since (as you point out) “even in those days, we had divorce or [abusive] situations that called for divorce.”

Having said that, I agree with you that there are individual situations where it may be better for the child to be adopted by a single parent or a gay couple. However, it is one thing to make individual exceptions while upholding the traditional family as the ideal. It is quite another to change the ideal, itself.

I agree, and I hope that women don't choose the single parenting life as their first choice in raising a child, over doing it the traditional way, as it seems that some in hollywood are doing these days. I do sincerely uphold the family unit of the "Leave it to Beaver" portrayal.

[Buzzard]

@Daniel2 I call stories like this tyrrany by exception. This is not to minimize the conflict this young man felt, but you have a organization that serves millions of young men, who undertakes a long, thoughtful evaluation of policy lasting two years, comes to a certain conclusion, but the anguished testimony of one person countermands their entire work.

Organizations have certain parameters. This is obviously not the same thing, but no matter how much I want to be a Catholic priest, I cannot join unless I become a Catholic and go to a Catholic seminary. On the secular side, when I wanted to get into insurance, I had to take a test and pass it and pay for a license, and until I did that, I could not sell a single policy, no matter how much I felt that the Utah Department of Insurance was not being inclusive.

The world is full of other examples, but you get my point. And yes, the scouts are different, but the principle still applies. You want to join, you go by the organizations rules. You don't get to throw a tantrum and change the world or even a small sliver of it to accomodate your rules.

[Calm]

I agree, and I hope that women don't choose the single parenting life as their first choice in raising a child, over doing it the traditional way, as it seems that some in hollywood are doing these days. I do sincerely uphold the family unit of the "Leave it to Beaver" portrayal.

Not only in Hollywood. I've known of girls who get pregnant young with the intent of raising the child on their own, their parents/mother encouraging them so that they get more time with their grandchild...basically another baby for them without pregnancy and labour. Both are extremely selfish imo in the vast majority of cases (I can see perhaps in a case where a young woman have a short life expectancy wanting to leave something of herself behind as well as someone for her family to hold on to...., but that will of course be a very rare circumstance if it ever even happens)

[Daniel2]

@Daniel2 I call stories like this tyrrany by exception. This is not to minimize the conflict this young man felt, but you have a organization that serves millions of young men, who undertakes a long, thoughtful evaluation of policy lasting two years, comes to a certain conclusion, but the anguished testimony of one person countermands their entire work.

Organizations have certain parameters. This is obviously not the same thing, but no matter how much I want to be a Catholic priest, I cannot join unless I become a Catholic and go to a Catholic seminary. On the secular side, when I wanted to get into insurance, I had to take a test and pass it and pay for a license, and until I did that, I could not sell a single policy, no matter how much I felt that the Utah Department of Insurance was not being inclusive.

The world is full of other examples, but you get my point. And yes, the scouts are different, but the principle still applies. You want to join, you go by the organizations rules. You don't get to throw a tantrum and change the world or even a small sliver of it to accomodate your rules.

That's an interesting reaction to the article I posted. As an aside, I personally don't find very many similarities between an organization for youth that teaching leadership- and life-skills, as well as providing wholesome recreational activities verses adults qualifying for the seminary, insurance and/or driver's licenses, or the like (and I'm glad to see you acknowledge the obvious differences).

In the article I shared, I didn't see any tyrranous calls, no tantrums being thrown, nor calls for the BSA to "accomodate" the author's "rules." Rather, what stood out to me was the author saying:

I'm not going to argue that the LGBTQ community should work towards repealing the BSA "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. That's not the issue I want to bring up. But we cannot allow the BSA to go unchallenged in this issue. Whether this means transforming the BSA into an organization that does not discriminate or by providing viable alternatives in every community across the nation, is another matter.

It seems to me that at least some of your reactions may have been misplaced or hyperbolic.

Regardless, I will continue to support my son's involvement in scouts for as long as I believe it's benefits outweigh it's deficits.

Daniel2

[Libs]

Sure thing

http://news.yahoo.co...s-29958970.html

http://www.edgeonthe...anti-gay_policy_

http://www.reuters.c...E85D1MM20120614

And maybe I'll throw in one from Canada

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...09/scouts-.html

Wow, that is awful.

Mounting litigation against the Boy Scouts has tarnished the wholesome image of a 100-year-old largely volunteer organization that prides itself on building good character, citizenship and fitness among its 2.7 million members, who are mostly boys aged eight to 17.

As in the sex abuse scandals that have rocked the Catholic Church, whose hierarchy is accused of covering up misconduct by priests, recent lawsuits against the Boy Scouts have claimed the organization concealed child molestation by its Scout leaders.

But Clark said that in the overwhelming majority of abuse cases uncovered by the Scouts, accused perpetrators have been excluded from the organization rather than harbored.

Instead, the chief complaint has been that despite 60 years of extensive record-keeping on sexual abuse, the Boy Scouts did little to improve prevention measures within its ranks or to warn parents and children of the problem, Clark said.