Popular Post Navidad Posted May 16 Popular Post Posted May 16 Why I haven’t become a Member: 1. I would have to agree to be rebaptized because of a doctrine that only the LDS baptism is pleasing to Christ in terms of mode, manner, and authority. My own father baptized me. I have baptized many people. I do not believe in the onlyness of LDS baptism and/or authority. It wouldn’t bother me if it wasn’t a requirement for joining. 2. I am in agreement that churches (both individually and as affiliates of a group of churches), broadly speaking, break down into two types: fence groups and well (the kind that provides water) groups. The distinction is that fence churches build policies, doctrine, and guidelines to keep members in and to keep outsiders out. Well churches have a well (metaphorically speaking) built in the center that keeps the flock close by because it is a source of refreshment in the form of teaching, loving, and nourishing. It doesn’t worry about keeping others out or on the edge of fellowship. After six years of full-time faithful non-member worship, fellowship, and ministry, I believe the LDS church is more fence-oriented than well-oriented. That doesn’t work for me. 3. I don’t believe churches should keep secrets, especially about means of growth, participation, and spiritual renewal. I could never take an oath or agree to an expectation that I would keep silent about temple ordinances. I would want to spread the word; not hide it, especially if it is indeed sacred. The more sacred, the more meaningful; the more meaningful, the more it needs to be shared. 4. As probably most of you know, I am very uncomfortable with the onlying, othering, and persecution identity (all three are connected) that have become endemic to the LDS Church's individual and group identity. I think all three are unhealthy and inaccurate. To deny that the godly people I know as non-LDS Christians can have thee gift of the Holy Spirit outside the LDS Church is a non-starter for me. There can be no question of the Holy Spirit's power and Gift in many godly non-LDS Christians. Non-LDS Christians who become LDS Christians are migrants, not converts. 5. Regarding LAD – life after death—I cannot see eternity in a place where Christ and the Father do not dwell as anything but Hell (in the non-brimstone sense). I also do not believe Christian denominational and group identity will survive into eternity. We will all be in the same boat on that ocean. Boats aren’t marked by denomination or earthly affiliation. Those are my five reasons. Having said all that, I must say this as well. . . . . None of that relates, for me, to either salvation or exaltation (which I deem sanctification). So, yes, I believe that LDS Christians are capable of being fully and completely Christians, just as are folks from any other group, Christian or perhaps, according to the wideness in God’s mercy, non-Christian as well. I believe that wideness extends to the Judgment Seat of Christ. Perfect judgment based on love, mercy, and perfect wisdom. No Mennonites, Catholics, or Mormons (sorry) in eternity. There will simply be humans - waiting for Christ to make His decisions one by one. I also must say that as an Evangelical, I hold my beliefs with faith, not with certainty. Humongous difference. I am also 120% convinced of the kindness of a majority of my LDS friends. That kind of kindness can only come from the Holy Spirit. I am open to your thoughts. For those of you who have been around for a while, there is most likely nothing new in what I have said. Best wishes to all. 7
blackstrap Posted May 16 Posted May 16 (edited) What is your thinking on Matt 7 :13 - 15 ? Edited May 17 by blackstrap
longview Posted May 16 Posted May 16 2 hours ago, Navidad said: . . . not believe in the onlyness of LDS baptism and/or authority. If Jesus told you that He is the ONLY way (No one can come to God the Father BUT ONLY through Jesus, one way only, narrow is the gate), then you are in a pickle. Because there are over 40,000 denominations and sects. Jesus taught that HIS HOUSE is a house of order (NOT of confusion) and MUST perform proper priesthood ordinations to enable various ordinances such as baptism. It would be like YOU telling Jesus that you will be (MY WILL not the Lord's) using a cafeteria approach. Many disciples in the days of the Apostles were instructed to find ONLY those that had proper authority (the right priesthood) in order to have a valid baptism. Jesus taught Nicodemus that baptism (done properly) is the ONLY way to gain entrance into the Kingdom of God. You performing baptisms for others is void and meaningless because you have NOT been ordained into the priesthood.
let’s roll Posted May 16 Posted May 16 Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I have benefited from the wisdom in a number of your posts over the years. I appreciate your well and fence metaphors. My experience after having lived in Wards in seven different states and one foreign country is that my perception of the depth of the well has varied in each congregation. In some places I found the well so deep and productive that I was often able to drink my fill. In other places I spent most of my time with my spiritual shovel, trying to help make the well deeper and more productive, finding that such efforts often had their own reward. I can’t speak to fences. I’m not one who notices fences even if others make efforts to make sure everyone acknowledges and stays within their metaphorical boundaries. Better, I believe, to be guided by Deity, regardless of where that guidance leads and whose fences might be breached. Wishing you Godspeed in your journey. 4
Popular Post Anonymous Mormon Posted May 16 Popular Post Posted May 16 2 hours ago, Navidad said: Why I haven’t become a Member: Thanks for being vulnerable and sharing. I find your list fascinating because it is so different than the reasons why I stay in the church and why people joined the church when I was a missionary. For example, if you flipped it around and gave the opposite reasons for why you WOULD join the church: I was baptized as an infant and believe it's important to be baptized by immersion I like fence oriented churches I think that having a secret ritual sounds cool I want a church with a strong stance on the Gift of the Holy Ghost only being available to its members I think the LDS church's life after death beliefs are exciting It's honestly not a very strong list of reasons to join. The above are all logical and none of them address the fundamental spiritual questions of whether or not God has guided you through the Holy Ghost to any of the truth claims of the church. I hope that if you join the church one day, it's because God is guiding you to do so through the Holy Ghost. That you feel His spirit when you read the Book of Mormon, attend general conference and go to church. And that God plants the doctrines of the plan of salvation and the Atonement of Jesus Christ that are unique to the LDS faith deep in your heart, so that you feel the light from God telling you they are true. And that this light brings a greater measure of joy and the love of God in your life, such that you can't wait to join with the saints. And regardless of where it takes you, I wish you the best on your faith journey 5
manol Posted May 18 Posted May 18 (edited) On 5/16/2026 at 3:21 PM, Navidad said: I am open to your thoughts. For context, I'm no longer LDS and not affiliated with any religion. On 5/16/2026 at 3:21 PM, Navidad said: Why I haven’t become a Member: 1. I would have to agree to be rebaptized because of a doctrine that only the LDS baptism is pleasing to Christ in terms of mode, manner, and authority. My own father baptized me. I have baptized many people. I do not believe in the onlyness of LDS baptism and/or authority. It wouldn’t bother me if it wasn’t a requirement for joining. 2. I am in agreement that churches (both individually and as affiliates of a group of churches), broadly speaking, break down into two types: fence groups and well (the kind that provides water) groups. The distinction is that fence churches build policies, doctrine, and guidelines to keep members in and to keep outsiders out. Well churches have a well (metaphorically speaking) built in the center that keeps the flock close by because it is a source of refreshment in the form of teaching, loving, and nourishing. It doesn’t worry about keeping others out or on the edge of fellowship. After six years of full-time faithful non-member worship, fellowship, and ministry, I believe the LDS church is more fence-oriented than well-oriented. That doesn’t work for me. 3. I don’t believe churches should keep secrets, especially about means of growth, participation, and spiritual renewal. I could never take an oath or agree to an expectation that I would keep silent about temple ordinances. I would want to spread the word; not hide it, especially if it is indeed sacred. The more sacred, the more meaningful; the more meaningful, the more it needs to be shared. 4. As probably most of you know, I am very uncomfortable with the onlying, othering, and persecution identity (all three are connected) that have become endemic to the LDS Church's individual and group identity. I think all three are unhealthy and inaccurate. To deny that the godly people I know as non-LDS Christians can have thee gift of the Holy Spirit outside the LDS Church is a non-starter for me. There can be no question of the Holy Spirit's power and Gift in many godly non-LDS Christians. Non-LDS Christians who become LDS Christians are migrants, not converts. 5. Regarding LAD – life after death—I cannot see eternity in a place where Christ and the Father do not dwell as anything but Hell (in the non-brimstone sense). I also do not believe Christian denominational and group identity will survive into eternity. We will all be in the same boat on that ocean. Boats aren’t marked by denomination or earthly affiliation. Here are my thoughts, with the numbers corresponding to the numbered items in your post: 1) I'm not in a position to judge which baptism(s) are pleasing to God. I respect your beliefs on the subject, and I respect the LDS beliefs on the subject. 2) I think your fence-vs-well analogy is valid. Personally, I tend to think in terms of “circles of inclusion”, and favor a really big circle which does not exclude anyone, be they Christian or non-Christian or Atheist or whatever. 3) I can accept the idea of basic teachings being readily accessible while higher teachings are reserved, as the higher can be counter-productive if presented before a person is ready for them. 4) I too am uncomfortable with “othering”, whether the circle is drawn at the borders of Mormonism or Christianity or Theism or wherever. That being said, it would be laughably hypocritical for me to draw a circle that excludes those who participate in “othering”! That (and so much else) is simply part of our journey down here, individually and collectively. 5) My concept of life after death is dominated by the first-hand accounts of those who have been on the other side and lived to tell the tale, rather than by religious teachings. The impression I get is that how we behave towards one another is vastly more important than which belief system we subscribe to. On 5/16/2026 at 3:21 PM, Navidad said: I believe that LDS Christians are capable of being fully and completely Christians, just as are folks from any other group, Christian or perhaps, according to the wideness in God’s mercy, non-Christian as well. [emphasis manol's] Aha! You my friend are dangerously close to drawing a really big circle too! On 5/16/2026 at 3:21 PM, Navidad said: I am also 120% convinced of the kindness of a majority of my LDS friends. That kind of kindness can only come from the Holy Spirit.ll. Agreed! Imo Mormonism produces very good people. Edited May 18 by manol 3
JAHS Posted May 18 Posted May 18 On 5/16/2026 at 1:21 PM, Navidad said: 3. I don’t believe churches should keep secrets, especially about means of growth, participation, and spiritual renewal. I could never take an oath or agree to an expectation that I would keep silent about temple ordinances. I would want to spread the word; not hide it, especially if it is indeed sacred. The more sacred, the more meaningful; the more meaningful, the more it needs to be shared. Matt 7: 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. I am not saying that all people are dogs or swine, but why give the critics something more to mock at and ridicule? There is of course the idea that God does not want us to do that and we make a promise to not do that. Then there is what Paul said: 1 Cor 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Kenngo1969 Posted May 18 Posted May 18 On 5/16/2026 at 5:20 PM, Anonymous Mormon said: ... And regardless of where it takes you, I wish you the best on your faith journey Ditto, that! https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/toward-interreligious-oneness/ 4
why me Posted May 18 Posted May 18 If you read the BofM and prayed about it and received a powerful witness I would recommend joining the church regardless of your questions. There will always be questions and answers. And at times just questions without answers. But a spiritual witness is just that. A spiritual witness from God.
Popular Post manol Posted May 18 Popular Post Posted May 18 8 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: Ditto, that! https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/toward-interreligious-oneness/ Hope you don't mind if I pull a quote from your imo excellent article: "The Parable of the Sower teaches us that good seeds can yield good fruit in Catholic ground, in Protestant ground, among the non-Christian religiously devout, and even among the nonreligious. The Savior’s admonition to judge people by their fruits teaches a similar principle. His admonition to “ask, seek, and knock” tells us that His Father gives good gifts to all varieties of people who ask Him, irrespective of religion. The Parable of the Talents teaches us that the Lord is displeased only with those who fail to live the best they know how according to the light they’ve been given. Modern revelation teaches us that the more we have been given, the more will be required of us, and that we will be rewarded for the good we do, likewise irrespective of religion. John the Baptist’s warning to the Pharisees teaches us that we ought not become too provincial in our possession of truth nor too secure in our own salvation. And finally, early leaders of the Restoration remind us that, while much good can be found in the Church of Jesus Christ and among its members, we have no corner on “goodness.”" 7
Popular Post Tony uk Posted May 18 Popular Post Posted May 18 Those on this Dialogue, who are familiar with me, will be aware I am RC (Please don't all scream 😊). I came to this Dialogue to help me with my own personal journey in faith. And very glad I did arrive here, and hope to remain as long as allowed. From my own experience, all Christians can learn from each other how to develop in their own personal journey in faith. 12
Tacenda Posted May 18 Posted May 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tony uk said: Those on this Dialogue, who are familiar with me, will be aware I am RC (Please don't all scream 😊). I came to this Dialogue to help me with my own personal journey in faith. And very glad I did arrive here, and hope to remain as long as allowed. From my own experience, all Christians can learn from each other how to develop in their own personal journey in faith. I sure like Pope Leo XIV! I've had a faith journey that I'm still on, it's a ride for sure. I feel a much closer belief in God so that's good. I have had issues with certain religions hurting people and like to have an individual path, not someone in between me and God. Sure glad you participate on the board Tony UK! Edited May 18 by Tacenda 4
Tony uk Posted May 18 Posted May 18 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: I sure like Pope Leo XIV! I've had a faith journey that I'm still on, it's a ride for sure. I feel a much closer belief in God so that's good. I have had issues with certain religions hurting people and like to have an individual path, not someone in between me and God. Sure glad you participate on the board Tony UK! And I am very glad to be here 👍. 4
smac97 Posted May 18 Posted May 18 (edited) On 5/16/2026 at 2:21 PM, Navidad said: Why I haven’t become a Member: 1. I would have to agree to be rebaptized because of a doctrine that only the LDS baptism is pleasing to Christ in terms of mode, manner, and authority. My own father baptized me. I have baptized many people. I do not believe in the onlyness of LDS baptism and/or authority. It wouldn’t bother me if it wasn’t a requirement for joining. Authority truly is a key concept in what Latter-day Saints call the "Restored Gospel." The Apostasy occurred, we believe, and the Restoration was needed because priesthood authority was lost. The Bible did not disappear, nor did the billions of Christians who have lived during the last 2,000 years. Faith and prayer, and to some extent light and knowledge and revelation, have never fully abated. But priesthood authority did. And with it ended prophetic authority and revelation, sacred ordinances, temple worship, and the visible hierarchy and cohesion necessary to keep the Church together. That's what the Latter-day Saints believe, anyway. Acceptance of that is a sort of "cart before the horse" thing. If Joseph Smith really was a prophet, and if he really did experience the things he said he did (including, most notably, the First Vision and other theophanies and the Book of Mormon), then priesthood authority is a necessary component of that paradigm. On 5/16/2026 at 2:21 PM, Navidad said: 2. I am in agreement that churches (both individually and as affiliates of a group of churches), broadly speaking, break down into two types: fence groups and well (the kind that provides water) groups. The distinction is that fence churches build policies, doctrine, and guidelines to keep members in and to keep outsiders out. I infer that you feel the Church is a "fence group." I think the Church's extensive missionary effort sort of undermines that characterization. Also, I think the purpose of the Church's "policies, doctrine, and guidelines" do have a "boundary maintenance" element to them, but that is not their overarching purpose. On 5/16/2026 at 2:21 PM, Navidad said: Well churches have a well (metaphorically speaking) built in the center that keeps the flock close by because it is a source of refreshment in the form of teaching, loving, and nourishing. The Church has regular meetings (including Sacrament Meeting, at which the Sacrament is administered on a weekly basis), curriculum, ministering elders and sisters, local and regional and church-wide events and activities, temples, service projects and humanitarian efforts, educational endeavors, and so on. I have been in my ward for 20+ years. I get to drink from that well at least weekly. On 5/16/2026 at 2:21 PM, Navidad said: It doesn’t worry about keeping others out or on the edge of fellowship. After six years of full-time faithful non-member worship, fellowship, and ministry, I believe the LDS church is more fence-oriented than well-oriented. That doesn’t work for me. That's an understandable perspective. I have a lot in common with Evangelical Protestants, Catholics, and other Christian groups. But that kinship is limited. We have no shortage of people from these groups willing to exclude us from the ambit of Christendom, and to explain why. Boundary maintenance is a necessary component of any faith group. On 5/16/2026 at 2:21 PM, Navidad said: 3. I don’t believe churches should keep secrets, especially about means of growth, participation, and spiritual renewal. I could never take an oath or agree to an expectation that I would keep silent about temple ordinances. I would want to spread the word; not hide it, especially if it is indeed sacred. The more sacred, the more meaningful; the more meaningful, the more it needs to be shared. Huh. In recent years the Church has gone to some length to be more candid about the temples. This published-to-the-world article about the Endowment, for example. This one about temple garments. Adam-ondo-Ahman. Baptism for the Dead. Gospel Topics essays. the Joseph Smith Papers Project. And many more. Saints, Volume 1 ("The Standard of Truth, 1815–1846"), Volume 2 ("No Unhallowed Hand, 1846–1893") and Volume 3 ("Boldly, Nobly, and Independent, 1893–1955"), the Joseph Smith Papers Project, the Gospel Topics essays - 14 in all are freely available to the world online. And these resources: Saints Podcast (112 episodes over three seasons, and counting) Historical Sources (extensive information about the Doctrine & Covenants) Revelations in Context ("The Stories behind the Sections of the Doctrine and Covenants") Joseph Smith's Revelations ("A Doctrine and Covenants Study Companion from the Joseph Smith Papers") Joseph Smith Papers Podcasts (14 episodes) First Vision (examining the various accounts of the First Vision) Prophets of the Restoration (extensive biographies of all presidents of the Church) Church History Topics (brief but annotated treatments of dozens of Church History items) Answers to Church History Questions (answering questions about difficult areas of Church history, such as Mountain Meadows, treatment of Native Americans, translation of the Book of Abraham, the Kirtland Safety Society, polygamy, etc.) Stories from Saints (discussion of various "local" stories about members of the Church and how they have influenced both the Church and history generally) Global Histories (extensive historical summaries of the Church throughout the world) At the Pulpit ("185 Years of Discourses by Latter-day Saint Women") The First Fifty Years of Relief Society Daughters in My Kingdom ("The History and Work of Relief Society") The Church Historian’s Press ("Search diaries, journals, discourses and documents") Pioneers in Every Land (various resources about members throughout the world) Joseph Smith (extensive resources about Joseph's life and ministry) The Trek West (various maps, stories, etc.) Museum Treasures ("Learn about the art and artifacts available at the Church History Museum.") Perspectives on Church History ("Explore insights on the history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.") Experience Church History (selections from exhibits and materials housed in the Church History Museum) Research Church History Collections (links to the Church History Library, Church History Catalog, Church History Biographical Database, Treasures of the {Church History Museum} Collection, Pioneer Resources) Church History Museum ("Discover the spiritual, artistic, and cultural legacies of the Latter-day Saints.") Church Historic Sites Never in the history of the Church has it been more forthcoming about its history and doctrine. The Church could be more forthcoming in many ways, but it's not a deal-killer for me. As to some issues, one person's "secret" is another person's "sensitive information for which there is no duty to disclose." If we did not have known mechanisms for oversight, and/or if the Brethren were "living large," and/or if there were evidence if substantial mismanagement, corruption, etc., I would have more concern. But we do have oversight mechanisms, and the Brethren are not living large, and we do not have evidence of mismanagement or corruption. The people who have access to and control over the Church's finances have put in place numerous safeguards, oversights, checks and balances, etc. so as to reduce the risk of misuse of such funds. We have the Council on the Disposition of Tithes, the Budget Committee, the Appropriations Committee, the Church Budget Office, the Church Audit Committee, and more. We get annual reports from the Audit Committee. Moreover, we see the beautiful temples, the tens of thousands of missionaries, the thousands of church buildings, the Church's humanitarian and philanthropic efforts, the canneries and storehouses, Welfare Square, Humanitarian Square, and so on. I repose a lot of trust and confidence in the leaders of the Church. I think they are working hard to do the right things in leading the Church through difficult times and circumstances, and they are mostly doing a very good job. Where their decisions are iffy, most of those are judgment calls. And where their decisions are just wrong or bad (a fairly rare occurrence, I think), I want to give them a good measure of grace and abstention from judgment or public reprimand. On 5/16/2026 at 2:21 PM, Navidad said: 4. As probably most of you know, I am very uncomfortable with the onlying, othering, and persecution identity (all three are connected) that have become endemic to the LDS Church's individual and group identity. I think all three are unhealthy and inaccurate. Christians outside of the Latter-day Saint paradigm also do the "onlying" and "othering" things. To each other. To us. To non-Christians. The Latter-day Saints have exclusivistic truth claims, true. But they also have about 84,000 missionaries inviting the "others" to come join us in embracing those truth claims. The vast majority don't, but we can still be neighbors and work and serve each other and others. On 5/16/2026 at 2:21 PM, Navidad said: To deny that the godly people I know as non-LDS Christians can have thee gift of the Holy Spirit outside the LDS Church is a non-starter for me. There can be no question of the Holy Spirit's power and Gift in many godly non-LDS Christians. Non-LDS Christians who become LDS Christians are migrants, not converts. I think there are plenty of Non-Latter-day Saints who have a greater portion of the Spirit in their lives than do some Latter-day saints. The "gift" is very important, and is tied to priesthood authority and other exclusivistic truth claims. But even then... Quote In 1978 the First Presidency of the Church (Spencer W. Kimball, N. Eldon Tanner, and Marion G. Romney) released an official statement entitled “God’s Love for All Mankind.” It declares: Based upon ancient and modern revelation, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gladly teaches and declares the Christian doctrine that all men and women are brothers and sisters, not only by blood relationship from common mortal progenitors, but also as literal spirit children of an Eternal Father. The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals. . . . Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are the sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father.12 The God we worship is the God of all creation, an infinite, eternal, and omni-loving Being who will do all that He can to inspire, lift, and bring greater light into the lives of His children. He is the only true God and thus the only living Deity who can hear and respond to the earnest petitions of His children. He is the God of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, and all humankind. He loves us all and is pleased with any and every halting effort on our part to learn of Him, serve Him, and be true to His light within us (Doctrine and Covenants 84:46–48). It was to Nephi, son of Lehi, that Jehovah spoke on this matter: “Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and that I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth? . . . For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it” (2 Nephi 29:7, 12; emphasis added). Alma explained that “the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, [people] to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have” (Alma 29:8). Elder B. H. Roberts of the Presidency of the Seventy offered the following insight: “God raises up wise men . . . of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend . . . but always giving that measure of truth that the people are prepared to receive. . . . While it is . . . taught by the very revelations of God themselves, that there is but one man . . . who is entitled to receive revelations for the government and guidance for the Church. . . still it is nowhere held that this man is the only instrumentality through which God may communicate His mind and will to the world.”13 That's a pretty expansive message. Not just other Christians, but non-Christians have also received a portion of the Spirit. On 5/16/2026 at 2:21 PM, Navidad said: 5. Regarding LAD – life after death—I cannot see eternity in a place where Christ and the Father do not dwell as anything but Hell (in the non-brimstone sense). I also do not believe Christian denominational and group identity will survive into eternity. We will all be in the same boat on that ocean. Boats aren’t marked by denomination or earthly affiliation. The Latter-day Saint paradigm does not match up with the heaven/hell bifurcation. Plus we have missionary work in the Spirit World and during the Millennium. Plenty of time to sort these things out. On 5/16/2026 at 2:21 PM, Navidad said: Those are my five reasons. Having said all that, I must say this as well. . . . . None of that relates, for me, to either salvation or exaltation (which I deem sanctification). So, yes, I believe that LDS Christians are capable of being fully and completely Christians, just as are folks from any other group, Christian or perhaps, according to the wideness in God’s mercy, non-Christian as well. I believe that wideness extends to the Judgment Seat of Christ. Perfect judgment based on love, mercy, and perfect wisdom. No Mennonites, Catholics, or Mormons (sorry) in eternity. There will simply be humans - waiting for Christ to make His decisions one by one. I also must say that as an Evangelical, I hold my beliefs with faith, not with certainty. Humongous difference. I am also 120% convinced of the kindness of a majority of my LDS friends. That kind of kindness can only come from the Holy Spirit. Thank you for sharing these kind words. On 5/16/2026 at 2:21 PM, Navidad said: I am open to your thoughts. For those of you who have been around for a while, there is most likely nothing new in what I have said. Best wishes to all. For me, there are some either/or statements I must answer: 1. Either God exists, or not. I believe the former. 2. Either God has certain attributes and perfections, or not. I believe the former. 3. Either God has a parent/child relationship with us, or not. I believe the former. 4. Either God has a Plan for his children, centered on Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world, or He does not. I believe the former. 5. Either Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ communicate this Plan and other forms of guidance to us through prophets and apostles, or They do not. I believe the former. 6. Either Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ restored certain things, including priesthood authority and the Book of Mormon, through Joseph Smith, or They did not. I believe the former. 7. Either the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be, or it is not. I believe the former. The lot of the Latter-day Saints is, or should be, a series of choices based on evidence and on the Spirit. I believe a person can gain a testimony of the foregoing matters by reading, pondering and praying about the Book of Mormon. If it is what it claims to be --> Joseph was a prophet who restored some important, even vital, things which the Lord wants us to have and utilize in our lives. YMMV. Many good people have not arrived at this conclusion. We each of us must travel the path we deem best. Thanks, -Smac Edited May 18 by smac97 4
Tony uk Posted May 18 Posted May 18 I just felt the need to add my own perspective to the post of smac97. There seems to be a regular theme, mainly, in my own thought process, of people outside an institution, calling for more openness. Whether it be the Church of Jesus of Latter Day Saints, the Roman Catholic Church, or any other 'Religious Institution' of noticeable size and influence. People calling for openness and/or clarity. And also people from within calling for openness. I guess it is easy for people, I presume, to suspect that there could be lots of secrets being held, about all kinds of things. 3
Calm Posted May 18 Posted May 18 3 hours ago, smac97 said: I think the Church's extensive missionary effort sort of undermines that characterization. In the sense of not wanting to exclude anyone, yes, I agree. But we don’t take them as they are, they must convert to who we are…though I see the conversion as pretty broad. But I believe that is what Christ intends, only his process is much more intensive. He is creating all of us into a ‘new man’, taking the best parts and making them better and purging the stuff that is holding us back from being who we want to be as we align our wills with his…which we want to do since God wants the best for us. 3
smac97 Posted May 18 Posted May 18 20 minutes ago, Calm said: Quote I think the Church's extensive missionary effort sort of undermines that characterization. In the sense of not wanting to exclude anyone, yes, I agree. But we don’t take them as they are, they must convert to who we are…though I see the conversion as pretty broad. I think Jesus calls us all to repent, to change ourselves "as {we} are" so as to more fully obey Him and keep His commandments. And would it be fair to say that pretty much all of Christendom has some sort of exclusionary / boundary maintenance provision? Are those who reject Jesus Christ "Christian," or are they excluded therefrom? What are your thoughts about strict five-point Calvinists? My understanding is that for them, before the foundation of the world, God sovereignly chose some people for salvation (the elect) purely by His will, not based on any foreseen faith, works, or merit on their part. The rest of humanity (the reprobate) are passed over (or in stricter versions, actively ordained) for damnation. This decision is unconditional and based entirely on God's hidden will — nothing the individual does or believes can change their eternal destiny. 20 minutes ago, Calm said: But I believe that is what Christ intends, only his process is much more intensive. He is creating all of us into a ‘new man’, taking the best parts and making them better and purging the stuff that is holding us back from being who we want to be as we align our wills with his…which we want to do since God wants the best for us. Yes. Part of His efforts being organizing His church on the earth, vesting servants with priesthood authority, and commanding them to go and proclaim faith and repentance, exhorting everyone to come unto Christ. He wants us to change, and not just stay as we are. Thanks, -Smac
Popular Post Navidad Posted May 19 Author Popular Post Posted May 19 On 5/16/2026 at 2:22 PM, blackstrap said: What is your thinking on Matt 7 :13 - 15 ? My thinking on those passages is that they refer to individuals, as only individuals can be redeemed or lost. No one is lost because of what their church says or does, what their pastor says or does, or because of their church's doctrines. Humans are saved or lost because of their personal choices and lives lived. Salvation is a point in time experience while exaltation or sancitification happens over time. Many choices and decisions go into that. False prophets are a metaphor for bad choices. Roads and gates are metaphors for paths lived. Truth is a journey - a path that we walk, not an object that we possess. I hope that helps answer your question for me. I am a Mennonite. There have been many false prophets in the Mennonite church beginning from its very beginning. Nothing that anything they did or did not do impacts my opportunity to be redeemed. . 5
Popular Post Navidad Posted May 19 Author Popular Post Posted May 19 On 5/16/2026 at 3:44 PM, longview said: If Jesus told you that He is the ONLY way (No one can come to God the Father BUT ONLY through Jesus, one way only, narrow is the gate), then you are in a pickle. Because there are over 40,000 denominations and sects. Jesus taught that HIS HOUSE is a house of order (NOT of confusion) and MUST perform proper priesthood ordinations to enable various ordinances such as baptism. It would be like YOU telling Jesus that you will be (MY WILL not the Lord's) using a cafeteria approach. Many disciples in the days of the Apostles were instructed to find ONLY those that had proper authority (the right priesthood) in order to have a valid baptism. Jesus taught Nicodemus that baptism (done properly) is the ONLY way to gain entrance into the Kingdom of God. You performing baptisms for others is void and meaningless because you have NOT been ordained into the priesthood. Jesus did tell me that, and I don't believe (I could be wrong) that I am in a pickle because of that. Nothing that any denomination or sect does or believes has any impact on my salvation. No church or denomination has any impact on my salvation. That is between me and the Savior. My salvation is completely dependent on my faith and life. Jesus is the way because He is the one who will make thee ultimate decision on whether you or I will be able to spend eternity with the Father at the judgment seat. That will be a one-on-one situation. The decision He makes about me has nothing to do with the decision He makes about you. Neither does which church I belonged to on earth. My salvation is not dependent on my church. Of that my faith is strong (notice - strong - not certain). I believe certainty destroys faith because they are oppositional. What the criteria Christ will use may differ person by person depending on many factors in their lives. I am content (not certain) to trust in the perfection of his mercy and judgment. So yes, He is the ONLY way. We cannot be in more agreement on that. True and false authority is a very different situation than different authorities. My wife and I have different authorities, but neither is more true or false than the other. Your binary dichotomy is your belief. It has no bearing whatsoever on my authority or relationship with Christ, my life, or my belief. Neither does it bear on how Christ will judge me. There are far more important things in my life for Him to measure me by than by my authority or lack thereof. How I truth my life will be of much greater interest to Him, in my thinking. Best wishes and thanks for the comment. 5
Navidad Posted May 19 Author Posted May 19 (edited) On 5/16/2026 at 4:20 PM, Anonymous Mormon said: Thanks for being vulnerable and sharing. I find your list fascinating because it is so different than the reasons why I stay in the church and why people joined the church when I was a missionary. For example, if you flipped it around and gave the opposite reasons for why you WOULD join the church: I was baptized as an infant and believe it's important to be baptized by immersion I like fence oriented churches I think that having a secret ritual sounds cool I want a church with a strong stance on the Gift of the Holy Ghost only being available to its members I think the LDS church's life after death beliefs are exciting It's honestly not a very strong list of reasons to join. The above are all logical and none of them address the fundamental spiritual questions of whether or not God has guided you through the Holy Ghost to any of the truth claims of the church. I hope that if you join the church one day, it's because God is guiding you to do so through the Holy Ghost. That you feel His spirit when you read the Book of Mormon, attend general conference and go to church. And that God plants the doctrines of the plan of salvation and the Atonement of Jesus Christ that are unique to the LDS faith deep in your heart, so that you feel the light from God telling you they are true. And that this light brings a greater measure of joy and the love of God in your life, such that you can't wait to join with the saints. And regardless of where it takes you, I wish you the best on your faith journey Thanks so much for your kind response. It is well thought out. Just in case it is helpful, I will let you know I have read the Book Of Mormon, Doctine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great price at least a dozen times. I have a personal library of hundreds of books written about Mormonism by Mormons, especially Mormon history. I don't buy stuff by anti-Mormons or ex-Mormons. I have no interest in arguing or being silly. I have attended a Mormon ward hundreds of times, have given sacrament talks, taught Sunday School, and vacuumed miles of chapel carpets, singing as I went. I have been introduced as the "Mennonite guru of Mormon Mexican history," and have prayed with and before general authorities of the church on more than one occasion. After speaking once in SLC, I got accosted by guards for bringing a gift in a box to the general authority who was Church Historian years ago. Thanks to his assistant, that worked out well! I don't say all that to brag (well, maybe some of it) but to let you know that I have been at this journey for a long time. I have prayed, pondered, and struggled over my relationship with the LDS church. I have been on the edge of inside since 2017 or so. Thanks for your wish. My faith journey is a path I walk to truth in all my dealings with myself and other folks. I am more concerned with that than with possessing truth. I see it as more of a verb than a noun. My best wishes to you. Edited May 19 by Navidad typo 4
Navidad Posted May 19 Author Posted May 19 On 5/17/2026 at 5:27 PM, manol said: Aha! You my friend are dangerously close to drawing a really big circle too! As usual, all you said is well said. I would just like to clarify that I do probably draw a circle. The circle I draw is around the individual. Your life and life experiences are different from mine. I believe you will be judged and provided access to the Father or not by Christ as you; I will be judged as me. No one else will be judged as I will be. So I guess in reality that is a pretty small circle! Just me standing there all alone! I believe in a wide mercy, but that mercy will be granted or withheld, not because of what church or group I belonged to or not. That is why I believe that not everyone from any group will most likely be judged favorably or negatively by Christ because of that affiliation. It's a one-by-one thing! Countless circles! Take care. 3
Navidad Posted May 19 Author Posted May 19 22 hours ago, JAHS said: Matt 7: 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. I am not saying that all people are dogs or swine, but why give the critics something more to mock at and ridicule? There is of course the idea that God does not want us to do that and we make a promise to not do that. Then there is what Paul said: 1 Cor 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. I worked with public school districts in relatively important positions for many years. I am well-experienced at being mocked at and ridiculed at almost every board meeting. I found, however, that the secret to not being reviled was to wear a Winnie the Pooh tie on the dais. No one can mock or ridicule someone in a Pooh tie! I still have around thirty or so! 3
Navidad Posted May 19 Author Posted May 19 6 hours ago, smac97 said: For me, there are some either/or statements I must answer: 1. Either God exists, or not. I believe the former. 2. Either God has certain attributes and perfections, or not. I believe the former. 3. Either God has a parent/child relationship with us, or not. I believe the former. 4. Either God has a Plan for his children, centered on Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world, or He does not. I believe the former. 5. Either Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ communicate this Plan and other forms of guidance to us through prophets and apostles, or They do not. I believe the former. 6. Either Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ restored certain things, including priesthood authority and the Book of Mormon, through Joseph Smith, or They did not. I believe the former. 7. Either the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be, or it is not. I believe the former. Hi my friend: Your response is complete and overwhelming. Thanks so very much for all the work and truth you put into it. The most interesting to me was the section I copied. Without commenting on any of the points, while reading them, I found myself wondering if Christ is going to ask us about our beliefs on any one of those seven questions from His judgment seat? I sort of doubt it. Of course I do so with incertifude. But I have enjoyed sitting here and staring at those questions and trying to see Him making His decision about us on any or all of them. I think there are other things He might be more interested in. But! I could certainly be wrong. I take comfort in that uncertainty. It makes my faith stronger and makes me rely less on reason! 4
Navidad Posted May 19 Author Posted May 19 3 hours ago, Calm said: But we don’t take them as they are, they must convert to who we are HI Calm: That is powerful. Every so often I have found myself wishing that my lifelong LDS friends could find themselves as a genuine non-LDS Christian brother being approached by an LDS missionary. I have spoken with scores of LDS missionaries. Far more often than not, their presuppositions about me are what they have been taught to believe about me as someone who is not LDS. Those presuppositions have very little to do with who I or my wife are as individuals. I have driven many missionaries back and forth to their mission field, the village where I have lived for twenty years within fifteen miles of the nearest LDS colony. Never once has one of them ever asked me about our village, the religious makeup of our village, the history of our people or our village, or their feelings about the missionaries. I don't know of one genuine convert to the LDS church from our village. There are only 900 people here at most. Anyway, I am not sure what all that has to do with anything. I am simply not impressed with what I see to be the lack of missiology training for the missionaries. They are culturally oblivious, except for the language component of it. That is not enough. I want them to bring spiritual light to the people of our village. They simply come and go every six weeks or so. As a former missionary for a non-denominational mission, I just don't get it. I guess they just want the folks to, as you say, convert to who they are. That isn't going to work here. I try to help them, but they certainly don't get a non-LDS Mennonite Christian trying to help them. Very intriguing. Thanks. . . . You always have a great way to say things. 1
smac97 Posted May 19 Posted May 19 16 minutes ago, Navidad said: Quote 1. Either God exists, or not. I believe the former. 2. Either God has certain attributes and perfections, or not. I believe the former. 3. Either God has a parent/child relationship with us, or not. I believe the former. 4. Either God has a Plan for his children, centered on Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world, or He does not. I believe the former. 5. Either Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ communicate this Plan and other forms of guidance to us through prophets and apostles, or They do not. I believe the former. 6. Either Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ restored certain things, including priesthood authority and the Book of Mormon, through Joseph Smith, or They did not. I believe the former. 7. Either the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be, or it is not. I believe the former. Hi my friend: Your response is complete and overwhelming. Thanks so very much for all the work and truth you put into it. The most interesting to me was the section I copied. Without commenting on any of the points, while reading them, I found myself wondering if Christ is going to ask us about our beliefs on any one of those seven questions from His judgment seat? I sort of doubt it. I am not really a doctrinaire purist. I think Joseph Smith got it right: “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 121.) So what do we do with these fundamental principles? Seems like He wants us to act in accordance with them, that is, keep the commandments given to us through prophets and apostles, and through the Light of Christ: Matthew 7:21: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 19:16–17: "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? … If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Hebrews 5:9: “[Christ] became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.”Philippians 2:12: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” John 14:15, 21: “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” Revelation 22:14: “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life.” In my young married days I seriously considered naming one of my sons "Emeth," in honor of a character from C.S. Lewis' "Chronicles of Narnia: The Last Battle." I summarized this to you back in 2020: Quote Quote When I think of His Church or the Church, it never dawns on me to use it in terms of the Mennonite, Baptist, or LDS church. It is very similar to the use of the term "the gospel." I love it when my LDS friends refer to the gospel until it hits me that they are referring only to the LDS Gospel as they understand it to be. I am sure there are several more words like this, yes? Perhaps, the priesthood is another example Are there any situations where LDS folks use these terms to more inclusive of the Christian community - both LDS and non-LDS? Thanks. It's a matter of parameters, I suppose. The Church is actually fairly universalist, since virtually everyone will be "saved" in a kingdom of glory. And such salvation is not limited to just those who join in the Church in this life. I am reminded here of the story of Emeth from The Last Battle the last book in The Chronicles of Narnia series by C.S. Lewis. Emeth is a Calormene character was raised to follow Tash, the antithesis of Aslan, and did so with an emphatic devotion and loyalty. Nevertheless, Emeth manages to travel to Aslan's paradisaical country after the destruction of Narnia, and is welcomed by Aslan. Aslan's words to Emeth, in which he ratifies the good deeds the latter did even under the name of Tash, are as follows: "I take to me the services which thou hast done to Tash {the false God}... if any man swear by him and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me {Christ} that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him." The implication is that people who reflect a righteous heart are to some degree justified, regardless of misbelief. This is a cornerstone of Christian theology: one party cites the Christian paradigm that faith in Christ alone saves, and the other wants to account for the fate of those born and raised into another faith. There has been extensive commentary on the question. In a letter from 1952, Lewis summarized and explained his position: "I think that every prayer which is sincerely made even to a false god, or to a very imperfectly conceived true God, is accepted by the true God and that Christ saves many who do not think they know him. For He is (dimly) present in the good side of the inferior teachers they follow. In the parable of the Sheep and Goats those who are saved do not seem to know that they have served Christ." I think C.S. Lewis was essentially correct in his soteriology, a view which I think is widely shared amongst the Latter-day Saints. While the saving ordinances for the "Emeths" of this world will be necessary (just as they are necessary for those who are raised with an actual knowledge of and testimony of Christ), the countless numbers of God's children who have lived and died on this earth without having had a chance to hear about and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior will nevertheless have the same access to the Restored Gospel and the salvation that comes through it as is available to those of us to are given a chance to hear and accept the Gospel. In short, if a person is good and decent, he should keep moving forward in what he understands as the best way to serve God and his fellow brothers and sisters. The Lord will sort things out in the end. You responded: Quote I never met C.S. Lewis. In college all his works were required reading. Both he and his beliefs were complex, yet wonderful. I agree with your comments about Emeth and would take them one step further - no ordinances needed! Oh and your last sentence beautifully and fully describes my eschatology - "The Lord will sort things out in the end!" As always, well said! I value your input, and find that our differences of belief regarding ordinances will, in the end, matter that much. Again: "The Lord will sort things out in the end." 16 minutes ago, Navidad said: Of course I do so with incertifude. But I have enjoyed sitting here and staring at those questions and trying to see Him making His decision about us on any or all of them. I think there are other things He might be more interested in. But! I could certainly be wrong. I take comfort in that uncertainty. It makes my faith stronger and makes me rely less on reason! I have had some experiences in the last several years which have caused me to consider my inadequacies and failures. I have become more and more grateful for Jesus Christ, who will help and save me despite these things. My job, then, is to obey Him to the best of my ability. Thanks, -Smac 1
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