jkwilliams Posted January 29 Posted January 29 (edited) My wife and I have been attending church in a Spanish-speaking branch for the past few months. I’ve never considered asking any other branch members about their immigration status. I do know people (LDS and not) who are absolute hardliners about mass deportations, etc. If you found out someone you attend church with is not in the country legally, would you report them to authorities? Why or why not? I’m not trying to make this political, but if it’s not appropriate to this forum, I understand. Edited January 29 by jkwilliams 1
The Nehor Posted January 29 Posted January 29 (edited) Reporting them at this time could literally get them killed so absolutely not. It could also get them thrown into a poorly built and maintained detention camp for months with little or no due process. Even if they do not die reporting them would be cruel. Edited January 29 by The Nehor 2
Popular Post Kenngo1969 Posted January 29 Popular Post Posted January 29 (edited) I'm just about as pro-police and pro-prosecution a person as you will [n]ever meet, or that you will ever meet in Cyberspace, but if all I know about the person is that he or she entered the country illegally or that the person remained illegally (by, for example, overstaying a visa), and if my only contact with the person to speak of is at church, no, I can't see myself reporting the person. Presumably, the person comes to church for the same reasons I do: To draw nearer to Christ, to renew my covenants with Him, to be knit together in love with my fellow Saints and children of God, to serve God and to serve each other, and so on. As much of a "hard-line law-and-order" type as I am, one's immigration status is irrelevant to all of those goals and purposes. I haven't done much traveling outside the country, but even what little time I have spent outside U.S. borders and what I have observed of third-world conditions has convinced me that if I lived in such conditions, I very likely might very well conclude that I, myself, didn't have all that much to lose and, in fact, had a considerable amount [potentially] to gain by emigrating/immigrating, even if I had to do so illegally. in any event, immigrating illegally and overstaying a visa are mala prohibita violations, not mala in se violations. Edited January 29 by Kenngo1969 Autocomplete thinks tt knows what I want to say better than I do; it doesn't 6
jkwilliams Posted January 29 Author Posted January 29 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: Reporting them at this time could literally get them killed so absolutely not. We have the missionaries over for dinner pretty much weekly, and they give English classes as a way of contacting investigators (I know, they call them “friends” now). Nobody comes anymore because they are afraid. Same goes for the futbol nights they used to have. 2
jkwilliams Posted January 29 Author Posted January 29 8 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: I'm just about as pro-police snd pro-prosecution a person as you will [n]ever meet, or that you will ever meet in Cyberspace, but if all I know about the person is that he or she entered the country illegally or that the person remained illegally (by, for exsmple, overstaying a visa), and if my only contact with the person to speak of is at church, no, I can't see myself reporting the person. Presumably, the person comes to church for the same reasons I do: To draw nearer to Christ, to renew my covenants with Him, to be knit together in love with my fellow Saints and children of God, to serve God and to serve each other, and so on. As much of a "hard-line law-and-order" type as I am, one's immigration status is irrelevant to all of those goals and purposes. I haven't done much traveling outside the country, but even what little time I have spent outside U.S. borders and what I have observed of third-world conditions has convinced me that if I lived in such conditions, I very likely might very well conclude that I, myself, didn't have all that much to lose and, in fact, had a considerable amount [potentially] to gain by emigrating/immigrating, even if I had to do so illegally. in sny event, immigrating illegally and overstaying a visa are mala prohibita violations, not maladjusted in se violations. I would only report them if I knew they had committed a crime, but then I’d report any member who committed a crime. Good to see you, my friend. 4
JAHS Posted January 29 Posted January 29 37 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: My wife and I have been attending church in a Spanish-speaking branch for the past few months. I’ve never considered asking any other branch members about their immigration status. I do know people (LDS and not) who are absolute hardliners about mass deportations, etc. If you found out someone you attend church with is not in the country legally, would you report them to authorities? Why or why not? I’m not trying to make this political, but if it’s not appropriate to this forum, I understand. Would not report them. The question might come up in a temple recommend interview about being honest in their dealings and obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. Bishops are told not to ask about their immigration status. How the member answers that question is between them and God and hopefully they are in he process of trying to become legal citizens. 3
Nofear Posted January 29 Posted January 29 A couple of decades ago, we had a family that were illegal immigrants from Venezuala and the bishop was concerned about his legal and ethical obligations. As I understand it, clergy are under no legal obligation whatsoever to in any way report their situation. I think the general approach for bishops is that they should not inquire or seek to know about their immigration status (legal or otherwise). A kind of don't ask, don't tell approach. 3
Kenngo1969 Posted January 29 Posted January 29 23 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I would only report them if I knew they had committed a crime, but then I’d report any member who committed a crime. Good to see you, my friend. Likewise! 1
JVW Posted January 29 Posted January 29 56 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: My wife and I have been attending church in a Spanish-speaking branch for the past few months. I’ve never considered asking any other branch members about their immigration status. I do know people (LDS and not) who are absolute hardliners about mass deportations, etc. If you found out someone you attend church with is not in the country legally, would you report them to authorities? Why or why not? I’m not trying to make this political, but if it’s not appropriate to this forum, I understand. I wouldn't report them. I also don't believe they would be killed if I did. I do believe that anyone who is illegal shouldn't be able to get a temple recommend if they answer the questions honestly, but I do understand that the honesty question is a gray area and open for interpretation. I'm married to a former illegal immigrant, her family overstayed their visa and it took her 20 years to get citizenship. If she were deported before we met I'd be a lonely man. The reason I wouldn't report them is that I'm not the police, it's not my job. So unless the govt wants to pay me to nark on my neighbors then I have little to no incentive to do so. People who spy on their neighbors because it makes them feel good are the worst kinds of people. I was on the receiving end of that during the covid era and it's not fun. If I see someone doing something that I view as wrong I prefer to confront them directly and talk about it. If I ever saw someone in the act of committing a felony I'd obviously call the cops, I don't think there's any sane person who wouldn't.
Popular Post BlueDreams Posted January 29 Popular Post Posted January 29 (edited) 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: My wife and I have been attending church in a Spanish-speaking branch for the past few months. I’ve never considered asking any other branch members about their immigration status. I do know people (LDS and not) who are absolute hardliners about mass deportations, etc. If you found out someone you attend church with is not in the country legally, would you report them to authorities? Why or why not? I’m not trying to make this political, but if it’s not appropriate to this forum, I understand. No. Why? It's none of my business. I also wouldn't if I found out if they drove a little over the speed limit or have jay walked recently. As a therapist I don't need to do so for other things like drug use. So I wouldn't put a different/more rigid standard on my personal life than I'd have for my professional one. As long as they're not harming someone or putting others/themselves at risk, I really don't feel a need to tell on someone. As an aside, I also attend a spanish ward. I assume someone in my ward has overstayed a visa or something. Being here "illegally" is an extremely common experience and easy to fall into. Edited January 29 by BlueDreams 5
Calm Posted January 29 Posted January 29 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: My wife and I have been attending church in a Spanish-speaking branch for the past few months. I’ve never considered asking any other branch members about their immigration status. I do know people (LDS and not) who are absolute hardliners about mass deportations, etc. If you found out someone you attend church with is not in the country legally, would you report them to authorities? Why or why not? I’m not trying to make this political, but if it’s not appropriate to this forum, I understand. If they are not criminals, no. If the Church accepts their presence, baptized them, gives them callings including missions, why would I think I knew better than the leadership about who should be allowed to sit in the pews? 2
Calm Posted January 29 Posted January 29 22 minutes ago, JVW said: I don't think there's any sane person who wouldn't. There are a lot of people who won’t out of fear, which may or may not be reasonable. Also, have you heard of the bystander effect? https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/bystander-effect https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6099971/ 1
Calm Posted January 29 Posted January 29 (edited) 59 minutes ago, BlueDreams said: Being here "illegally" is an extremely common experience and easy to fall into. We were illegals in Russia on our first trip over. Being in Cyrillic, the visa was not easy to read and we just assumed it was correct for the six week stay. Unfortunately it was only for two weeks. We had to pay a fee (couple of hundred, thankfully we had the cash) to be allowed to leave the country…it wasn’t discovered till we were leaving. We got to wait two hours in the airport on very hard benches till someone with authority could give us permission (accept the bribe?). Given no one at customs admitted to speaking English and the flight attendant helping us had to abandon us after explaining what happened and telling us we had to wait, that was a very anxiety producing time. If we missed our flight, it would likely be two days for another, had no way to contact friends, etc. Our kids would be wondering what happened to us (they were 3 and 11 and staying with friends). Just a random memory that popped into my head when you mentioned it was easy to fall into. Edited January 29 by Calm 4
jkwilliams Posted January 29 Author Posted January 29 37 minutes ago, BlueDreams said: No. Why? It's none of my business. I also wouldn't if I found out if they drove a little over the speed limit or have jay walked recently. As a therapist I don't need to do so for other things like drug use. So I wouldn't put a different/more rigid standard on my personal life than I'd have for my professional one. As long as they're not harming someone or putting others/themselves at risk, I really don't feel a need to tell on someone. As an aside, I also attend a spanish ward. I assume someone in my ward has overstayed a visa or something. Being here "illegally" is an extremely common experience and easy to fall into. I would not be surprised if some of our branch members were undocumented. None of my business. 2
JVW Posted January 29 Posted January 29 17 minutes ago, Calm said: There are a lot of people who won’t out of fear, which may or may not be reasonable. Also, have you heard of the bystander effect? https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/bystander-effect https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6099971/ Yeah, and I'm not immune to it. Good point. 1
jkwilliams Posted January 29 Author Posted January 29 11 minutes ago, JVW said: Yeah, and I'm not immune to it. Good point. None of us is. 1
Duncan Posted January 29 Posted January 29 2 hours ago, jkwilliams said: My wife and I have been attending church in a Spanish-speaking branch for the past few months. I’ve never considered asking any other branch members about their immigration status. I do know people (LDS and not) who are absolute hardliners about mass deportations, etc. If you found out someone you attend church with is not in the country legally, would you report them to authorities? Why or why not? I’m not trying to make this political, but if it’s not appropriate to this forum, I understand. I wouldn't report anyone about their immigration status, I would report someone (illegal or not) if they were doing something illegal like criminal activity and I knew for sure that was what was going on 4
Pyreaux Posted January 30 Posted January 30 I lean right, I have hope it can lead to a greater good, but I worry for the collateral damage, and people in church are at the bottom of my list. 1
ZealouslyStriving Posted January 30 Posted January 30 It's my understanding that the Church essentially has a "don't ask, don't tell" policy on immigration. I'll follow that example. 1
sunstoned Posted January 30 Posted January 30 I would not have reported Jews in 1938 Germany, and I would not report illegal immigrants in 2026 US. It pains me to associate these two events, but they are similar. In both cases, people could be hurt or worse. -2
bluebell Posted January 30 Posted January 30 5 hours ago, BlueDreams said: No. Why? It's none of my business. I also wouldn't if I found out if they drove a little over the speed limit or have jay walked recently. As a therapist I don't need to do so for other things like drug use. So I wouldn't put a different/more rigid standard on my personal life than I'd have for my professional one. As long as they're not harming someone or putting others/themselves at risk, I really don't feel a need to tell on someone. As an aside, I also attend a spanish ward. I assume someone in my ward has overstayed a visa or something. Being here "illegally" is an extremely common experience and easy to fall into. I wouldn't report them either, and for the same reasons. The "I wouldn't report someone for speeding or unpaid parking tickets either or any other civil legal matter" reason was the first 'why' that came to my mind as well. 1
bluebell Posted January 30 Posted January 30 5 minutes ago, sunstoned said: I would not have reported Jews in 1938 Germany, and I would not report illegal immigrants in 2026 US. It pains me to associate these two events, but they are similar. In both cases, people could be hurt or worse. Can you explain in what ways you see them as similar?
sunstoned Posted January 30 Posted January 30 12 minutes ago, bluebell said: Can you explain in what ways you see them as similar? An authoritarian leader with a police force that is violent and tasked with rounding up people using tactics that are outside the rule of law. -2
The Nehor Posted January 30 Posted January 30 1 minute ago, sunstoned said: An authoritarian leader with a police force that is violent and tasked with rounding up people using tactics that are outside the rule of law. That currently has over three times as many people in “deportation camps/prisons” as Germany had in concentration camps at the start of the Second World War. There is also a (probably unrealistically high) detainment goal for the year that is being pushed so there is an incentive to cut legal corners and keep people locked up. Add in that ICE and Border Patrol have had to ramp up their numbers and the training is abysmal. Also leaked memos given instructions are directing federal agents in these agencies to do things that are blatantly unconstitutional. 2
sunstoned Posted January 30 Posted January 30 5 minutes ago, The Nehor said: That currently has over three times as many people in “deportation camps/prisons” as Germany had in concentration camps at the start of the Second World War. There is also a (probably unrealistically high) detainment goal for the year that is being pushed so there is an incentive to cut legal corners and keep people locked up. Add in that ICE and Border Patrol have had to ramp up their numbers and the training is abysmal. Also leaked memos given instructions are directing federal agents in these agencies to do things that are blatantly unconstitutional. Word. 1
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