What would 2 Nephi 25:23 mean if you changed one word?

[GoCeltics]

What would 2 Nephi 25:23 mean if it was changed to “... for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, before all we can do?”

[InCognitus]

55 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

What would 2 Nephi 25:23 mean if it was changed to “... for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, before all we can do?”

It would be inaccurate and it would contradict the Bible if that was changed, because both the Bible and Book of Mormon teach that we must receive Christ and repent of our sins to receive salvation, and that is at the very least "all we can do".

This is how it is described elsewhere in the Book of Mormon.  In Alma chapter 24:9-11, Ammon explains it this way:

"And behold, I also thank my God, that by opening this correspondence we have been convinced of our sins, and of the many murders which we have committed.  And I also thank my God, yea, my great God, that he hath granted unto us that we might repent of these things, and also that he hath forgiven us of those our many sins and murders which we have committed, and taken away the guilt from our hearts, through the merits of his Son.  And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain—" (Alma 24:10–11)

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

What would 2 Nephi 25:23 mean if it was changed to “... for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, before all we can do?”

I think it would answer some issues with that verse but open up new questions and problems.  For example, it could be said to imply that we are saved by Grace automatically, without any input or agency on our part.

Edited January 18 by bluebell

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

What would 2 Nephi 25:23 mean if it was changed to “... for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, before all we can do?”

Amazing! Have you been reading your Book of Mormon lately? Because that was exactly what Nehor taught! Not the illustrious board netizen called "The Nehor" here on MDDB, but the character in the Book of Alma. I suggest you read about him, starting here: Alma 1:2. 

In particular part, here in verse 4 is what Nehor taught:

"And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life."

If "by grace we are saved, before all we can do," that lets us do absolutely nothing, and we're home free!  Because if we're saved before we do anything at all, there's no reason for us to do anything. It's quite clear.

In the actual verse, we are saved by grace after all we can do, because all the labor we might do cannot save us -- but all we can do is what qualifies us to receive the grace of Jesus Christ. In other words, we still have to do something, as Peter said on the Day of Pentecost, "repent and be baptized."  Remember the Parable of the Vineyard? What did the men get who showed up for work, as directed, but there was virtually nothing left to do at the end? They got the same payment as the ones who were there all day long. They were paid by grace, after all they could do, which was to simply show up. 

I think I will bring up the Syrian general Naaman in 2 Kings 5.

Upon being advised that there was a prophet in Israel who could heal him from his leprosy, with his king's permission he traveled to Israel and was directed to the prophet Elisha. Because Elisha didn't even come out to greet him, which seemed disrespectful, but sent his servant to tell Naaman to bathe seven times in the River Jordan, Naaman was angry, and said "Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean?" Then he went away in a rage.

He was then persuaded by his own servants that that he had nothing to lose by at least giving it a try since the task is a simple and easy one. So, performs the labor of seven baths in the Jordan River and finds himself healed.

Now, did the River Jordan heal him? Of course not. Millions of people have washed in that river and it hasn't healed any but Naaman. So what healed him? Naaman's obedience to the word of God conveyed to him by the Lord's prophet. The same is true of "all we can do" -- if it is done with faith in Jesus, Christ's grace activates to the person's salvation, if the person remain faithful to the end, which is why the word "after" occurs there.

However, I'm giving short shrift to a subset of humanity who get that grace for literally nothing at all (and for whom your modification does actually apply), and that is all those children and other non-accountable people whom are not held to account for their transgressions because they were incapable of making accountable decisions of will before they died. For example, there is a young woman in my ward who suffered an adverse medical event shortly after birth. She does not have the mental or physical ability to even understand what a sin is. She lives in a damaged body and has to be wheeled everywhere she goes. Christ's grace covers her because she cannot do anything.

 

[teddyaware]

9 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

What would 2 Nephi 25:23 mean if it was changed to “... for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, before all we can do?”

There are two simplified ways to break down verse 23 in order to attempt to correctly understand what the Prophet Nephi is trying to convey.

1) The first simplified breakdown is as follows: … “we labor diligently, for we know that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do.

2) The second simplified breakdown is as follows: “we persuade our children to believe in Christ, and be reconciled to God, for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

If simplified verse breakdown number 1 is the correct point of focus needed to determine the true meaning of the verse, then Nephi is testifying the reason why he’s laboring with such great diligence is because he knows he can only hope to be saved after continuously expending great effort to come into full compliance with God’s law.

If simplified verse breakdown number 2 is the correct point of focus needed in order to determine the true meaning of the verse, then Nephi is testifying that unless one first exercises faith in Christ, and is reconciled to God by obtaining a remission of his sins by virtue of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, then no amount of human effort expended to come into full compliance with God’s law will ever be enough to save him.

It’s very likely that the second simplified verse breakdown is the correct one because immediately after verse 23 Nephi testifies that…

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore ~THE LAW HATH BECOME DEAD UNTO US, and we are made alive in Christ BECAUSE OF OUR FAITH; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. (2 Nephi 25: 25-26)

The incorrect interpretation of verse 23 that’s lingered in the church for so many years is another perfect example of what can happen when verses of scripture are interpreted out of the clarifying context of the surrounding verses.

Edited January 19 by teddyaware

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

If "by grace we are saved, before all we can do," that lets us do absolutely nothing, and we're home free!  Because if we're saved before we do anything at all, there's no reason for us to do anything. It's quite clear.

English, being English, meaning ambiguous, I think there is an alternative reading and that is we must be saved before we can do anything at all (I assume that would get interpreted as before anything good or of value to God)

It isn’t a reading I would be fond of and I don’t see a need to alter it to “before” as it does not seem to me to clarify, but changes context…no matter how it gets interpreted.  “After” is not the same thing as “before”, after all.

Edited January 19 by Calm

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

English, being English, meaning ambiguous, I think there is an alternative reading and that is we must be saved before we can do anything (I assume that would get interpreted as before anything good or of value to God)

It isn’t a reading I would be fond of and I don’t see a need to alter it to “before” as it does not seem to me to clarify, but changes context…no matter how it gets interpreted.  “After” is not the same thing as “before”, after all.

Agreed.

It leaves open some important questions like, are we saved before we can have faith in Christ?  Are we saved before we can repent?  Are we saved before we can covenant with Christ through baptism?  

The theology just doesn't work, in my opinion.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

What would 2 Nephi 25:23 mean if it was changed to “... for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, before all we can do?”

Is this just a thought experiment like randomly adding words that mean the opposite or do you see it as possibly adding insight?  I am not comprehending why you are asking this (not saying the question is meaningless or not worth our time, just not understanding the purpose behind it).

[Kenngo1969]

If one wishes to demonstrate to me what one values most, don't just tell me what one says.  Show me what one does.  Now, am I entirely consistent, at all times, in demonstrating what I value most by what I do as opposed to what I say?  No, but that's where repentance and the Atonement of Christ figure into the equation.  "All I can do" in cases, in circumstances, and on occasions in which what I say I value most is not reflected in what I do is repent, pick myself up, dust myself off, and, in the words that a sage three-year-old said when asked what it means to repent, "It means we git to twy agin."  As the old saying goes, "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again."

When all is said and done (the integral part of "All" being the Atonement of Jesus Christ) perhaps the one thing I have left to give to God that He did not give me in the first place (see Mosiah 4:21: I am indebted to God for all that I am and all that I have) is my will.

 

 

[The Nehor]

*The Last Judgement*

“Did you do all that you could do?”

“No.”

”Then…….Buh-bye”

[telnetd]

On 1/18/2026 at 9:43 AM, GoCeltics said:

What would 2 Nephi 25:23 mean if it was changed to “... for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, before all we can do?”

Add one more.

"... all we must do".

[JVW]

On 1/19/2026 at 2:33 AM, The Nehor said:

*The Last Judgement*

“Did you do all that you could do?”

“No.”

”Then…….Buh-bye”

If I make it into heaven it will be the greatest miracle of all time. If you die before me save me a place at the table in the Telestial Kingdom, brother.

[Notatbm]

Sounds like a second annointing. 
 

I mean after you get it you can kinda do whatever you want except for kill someone I think not sure since the church won’t discuss it. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

If I make it into heaven it will be the greatest miracle of all time. If you die before me save me a place at the table in the Telestial Kingdom, brother.

I’ll try but I plan to have my harem there so seats might fill up fast.

[GoCeltics]

On 1/18/2026 at 5:32 PM, Stargazer said:

Remember the Parable of the Vineyard? What did the men get who showed up for work, as directed, but there was virtually nothing left to do at the end? They got the same payment as the ones who were there all day long. They were paid by grace, after all they could do, which was to simply show up. 

“For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.”

The parable doesn’t suggest that there was almost no work left to be done at the end.

How is “receiving the same payment” meant to function as an analogy for the kingdom of heaven in light of the various kingdoms of glory in your church's theology?
 

On 1/18/2026 at 5:32 PM, Stargazer said:

The same is true of "all we can do" -- if it is done with faith in Jesus, Christ's grace activates to the person's salvation, if the person remain faithful to the end, which is why the word "after" occurs there.

Does grace operate only in relation to a person’s salvation—as described in 2 Nephi 31:16–20, where salvation is understood as exaltation?

Why is Christ’s grace “sufficient” only after the conditions outlined in Moroni 10:32 are met?

[GoCeltics]

On 1/18/2026 at 10:39 AM, InCognitus said:

It would be inaccurate and it would contradict the Bible if that was changed, because both the Bible and Book of Mormon teach that we must receive Christ and repent of our sins to receive salvation, and that is at the very least "all we can do".

This is how it is described elsewhere in the Book of Mormon.  In Alma chapter 24:9-11, Ammon explains it this way:

"And behold, I also thank my God, that by opening this correspondence we have been convinced of our sins, and of the many murders which we have committed.  And I also thank my God, yea, my great God, that he hath granted unto us that we might repent of these things, and also that he hath forgiven us of those our many sins and murders which we have committed, and taken away the guilt from our hearts, through the merits of his Son.  And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain—" (Alma 24:10–11)

Are individuals who do not meet the minimum requirements you mentioned still considered saved?

Does “receiving Christ”, to be saved, means accepting all of the ordinances?

In Alma 24, salvation is portrayed as exaltation (see verses 16 and 22), and this understanding is reflected in other passages as well.

Alma 7:16

"And whosoever doeth this, and keepeth the commandments of God from thenceforth, the same will remember that I say unto him, yea, he will remember that I have said unto him, he shall have eternal life, according to the testimony of the Holy Spirit, which testifieth in me."

Alma 11:40

"And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.

3 Nephi 9:22

"Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved."

Is this the sense in which you interpret “saved” in 2 Nephi 25:23?

[Kenngo1969]

On 1/20/2026 at 2:34 PM, GoCeltics said:

... Why is Christ’s grace “sufficient” only after the conditions outlined in Moroni 10:32 are met?

What's the first condition listed in Moroni 10:32?  That we come unto Him.  I suppose I'm not understanding what in that verse, aside from the human tendency to try make life a "do-it-yourself" operation, is so hard to do.  In Christ, I can indeed "be perfected"; in Christ, I can indeed "deny [myself] of all ungodliness"; paradoxically, perhaps, in Christ, I can indeed "love God with all [my] might, mind, and strength."  And why is it that I may become perfect only in Christ?  Because, otherwise, I might be tempted to "deny the power of God."  And if [as] I come unto Christ, it is He who does the "perfecting" ("be perfected in Him").

[JVW]

On 1/18/2026 at 9:43 AM, GoCeltics said:

What would 2 Nephi 25:23 mean if it was changed to “... for we know that it is by works that we are saved, after all we can do?”

There, fixed it for you, you picked the wrong word to change.

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, JVW said:

There, fixed it for you, you picked the wrong word to change.

We’d still have to ask, what works could we do to save ourselves?

[teddyaware]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

We’d still have to ask, what works could we do to save ourselves?

Faithfully and consistently bringing forth the works of the Spirit (also known as living works) are an essential and indispensable element of the sanctification process leading to authentic holiness. A man is only able to increase in righteousness and holiness by allowing the creative and redemptive power God’s Spirit to work in partnership with his own spirit. The only works a man can perform that are considered truly righteous in the eyes of God are those works that are inspired and empowered by the indwelling influence of the Spirit of God. In fact, good works are utterly impossible to perform without the Spirit of God being present in each act. Therefore our righteous works are manifestations of salvation by grace in the same way obtaining a remission of sins is a manifestation of salvation by grace. 

24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. FOR IF THERE BE ONE AMONG YOU THAT DOETH GOOD, HE SHALL WORK BY THE POWER AND GIFTS OF GOD. (Moroni 10)

Edited January 23 by teddyaware

[Calm]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

In fact, good works are utterly impossible to perform without the Spirit of God being present in each act.

I have wondered why this is so if this means we can’t do good unless the Spirit is first there helping us instead of doing good draws the Spirit to us. (Most people seem to interpret the scriptures as meaning the first in my experience, we can’t even think good thoughts unless the Spirit pushes us that direction.)

[InCognitus]

On 1/20/2026 at 2:39 PM, GoCeltics said:

Are individuals who do not meet the minimum requirements you mentioned still considered saved?

Of course not, people are not saved without their consent.  If we do nothing to be saved, then why aren’t we all just saved?

The minimum requirements are that we must receive Christ and repent with real intent (i.e. “godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation” - 2 Corinthians 7:10).  Receiving Christ is to enter into a covenant relationship with him (Acts 2:37-38). 

On 1/20/2026 at 2:39 PM, GoCeltics said:

Does “receiving Christ”, to be saved, means accepting all of the ordinances?

That depends on what one means by being “saved” (see below).

On 1/20/2026 at 2:39 PM, GoCeltics said:

In Alma 24, salvation is portrayed as exaltation (see verses 16 and 22), and this understanding is reflected in other passages as well.

Alma 7:16

"And whosoever doeth this, and keepeth the commandments of God from thenceforth, the same will remember that I say unto him, yea, he will remember that I have said unto him, he shall have eternal life, according to the testimony of the Holy Spirit, which testifieth in me."

Alma 11:40

"And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.

3 Nephi 9:22

"Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and have taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved."

Is this the sense in which you interpret “saved” in 2 Nephi 25:23?

As every Bible reader should know, there are different ways and tenses that the Bible (and Book of Mormon) say that a person is “saved” or can be “saved” (future tense), and it is often expressed as a condition upon something else.

Among others, there is salvation from death (through the resurrection), salvation from sin and the consequences of sin (through the atonement of Jesus Christ as a past event), salvation from the wrath of God or punishment, and salvation to eternal life (which is something that is “hoped for” and conditional). 

I don’t think we can pin any single type of salvation on 2 Nephi 25:23 (although we could rule out the resurrection, since that is unconditional). 

And biblically speaking, salvation is often taught as a future state that comes about after enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, 24:13).  Sometimes salvation is equated with “eternal life”, but sometimes it is not. 

The future (and possibly conditional) state of salvation is expressed in verses such as Romans 8:24-25, 13:11, 1 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:13-14, 1 Thessalonians 5:8, Hebrews 10:36, 1 Peter 1:5, and 1 John 3:2-3.

And in the Bible, every single time that the apostle Paul discusses eternal life, he does it in the context of needing to do good works and it is something that is received in the future.   For example:

Romans 2:1-11, where it says God “will render to every man according to his deeds:  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile”.

Romans 6:9-23, where Paul says “now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.  What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”

Galatians 6:7–10: “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.  As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.”

1 Timothy 6:17–19:  “Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;  That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;  Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.”

Titus 1:1–2:  “Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began”.

Titus 3:4–8: “But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”

And this is often the same theme found in the teachings of Jesus, such as in Matthew 19:28–29 (“every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life”) and the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31–46 (i.e. “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”)

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

In fact, good works are utterly impossible to perform without the Spirit of God being present in each act.

I know I shouldn't say anything, but I needed to drop a quick proof of life post anyway, so what the heck, here we go...

In my opinion, this sentiment hews much closer to the Protestant notions of total depravity and monergistic sanctification - where God acts, and humans respond but do not meaningfully co-produce holiness - than it does to Latter-day Saint belief.

LDS theology in my view, is, instead, synergistic (i.e., God works with us, not instead of us). But, crucially, with us doesn't mean only when God is the active agent.

In Latter-day Saint thought, humans are not all totally depraved. Because of the Light of Christ, all people are capable of recognizing and authentically choosing good.

What would be the point of giving us moral agency if we were incapable of freely choosing good without God always having his thumb on the scale. No, that capacity is inherent in all of us. To suggest otherwise would make agency functionally inert without constant divine override. Thanks but no thanks.

 

[JVW]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

We’d still have to ask, what works could we do to save ourselves?

It was a joke. If it was by works we were saved then it's whatever the Pharisees and Saducees did that would produce salvation. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

It was a joke. If it was by works we were saved then it's whatever the Pharisees and Saducees did that would produce salvation. 

They did pretty different things and Judaism at the time didn’t really have a blissful afterlife to be saved into. This is just projecting Christianity onto ancient Jews and acting like they thought just like us. They did not.