Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Tacenda]

Danielwoods or Coolrok7,

The LDS believe one must be submerged fully during baptism for it to be valid. What are your feelings? if you don't mind me asking.

We discussed this during a church youth class today. And there were some very convincing scriptures both in the BoM and Bible that substantiate it. The only plausible disagreement to this, IMO, from non LDS Christians I've heard about, is the womb being the water before being born, is what Jesus might count as water baptism, did I totally get that wrong?

But there are places in scripture, my husband saw it today and remarked it was the first time he'd seen it in his scriptures, and he reads it constantly and can retain through memorization a lot of the Bible. The scripture he found is John 3:22 & 23 "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized." "And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized."

That pretty much sums up to me that people do need to be immersed fully. Both your takes, if you would like, would be helpful.

ETA: Need to add, that it was the fact that Jesus was baptizing that my husband hadn't really seen before, until today.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Tacenda

[Anakin7]

    To Be Baptized by Jesus Christ would be AWESOME and humbling.

 

    In His Debt/Grace

            Anakin7

[danielwoods]

Danielwoods or Coolrok7,

The LDS believe one must be submerged fully during baptism for it to be valid. What are your feelings? if you don't mind me asking.

We discussed this during a church youth class today. And there were some very convincing scriptures both in the BoM and Bible that substantiate it. The only plausible disagreement to this, IMO, from non LDS Christians I've heard about, is the womb being the water before being born, is what Jesus might count as water baptism, did I totally get that wrong?

But there are places in scripture, my husband saw it today and remarked it was the first time he'd seen it in his scriptures, and he reads it constantly and can retain through memorization a lot of the Bible. The scripture he found is John 3:22 & 23 "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized." "And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized."

That pretty much sums up to me that people do need to be immersed fully. Both your takes, if you would like, would be helpful.

ETA: Need to add, that it was the fact that Jesus was baptizing that my husband hadn't really seen before, until today.

 

There are really two main questions here. One is what is "valid" when speaking about baptism, the other is what type of baptism was Jesus talking about? 

 

The first question is different for different groups. The LDS have their reasons for this baptism being the only "valid" form of baptism. The Catholics have their reasons for their "valid" baptism, etc.. 

So, the question of validity is different from the type or form of baptism. And on this question, I can't see anywhere in the NT where Jesus or any of the Apostles put limits on baptisms as the LDS or Catholics do. God looks at the heart. So, where/who/what doesn't really matter, what matters is the heart. Is it devoted to God? 

 

Second, baptism is a symbol. It represents our death with Christ, and resurrection with him as well. In this symbolic act, we identify with Christ, and if we were to do it as the early church and Christ did, it would be full immersion. However, as is true with all symbols, the meaning is much more important than the external act. So, if one person is not completely immersed but just had water poured on his/her head, is that a valid baptism to God? Of course, because God looks at the heart. God doesn't get caught up in petty external matters, he looks at a persons heart. 

[pogi]

So, if one person is not completely immersed but just had water poured on his/her head, is that a valid baptism to God? Of course, because God looks at the heart. God doesn't get caught up in petty external matters, he looks at a persons heart. 

 

God cares very much about outward ordinances and how they are to be performed - that's why the old testament can be so boring to read at times   Would God have cared if the levites sacrificed wheat instead of a dove or a lamb in place of barley, etc. etc.?  Obviously, yes.  The heart of man is in part revealed by their observance of the outward ordinances as prescribed by the Lord.  Why perform a religious rite or outward ordinances in defiance of the reason behind it - the symbology and obedience to the prescribed word of God?  To do so would be empty. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by pogi

[coolrok7]

Tacenda, compare John 3:26 with 4:2, Jesus wasn't actually doing the baptizing.

Also the key to Baptism is that it is the word of God in the command to baptize where it's validity is effective to those who are baptized, not the amount of water used.

I have no problem with immersion. Water was used in my baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit which makes it valid.

[thesometimesaint]

In LDS Theology baptism is symbolic of death, burial, and resurrection. To incompletely bury, in water, someone mocks the very symbolism of that Ordinance

[danielwoods]

God cares very much about outward ordinances and how they are to be performed - that's why the old testament can be so boring to read at times   Would God have cared if the levites sacrificed wheat instead of a dove or a lamb in place of barley, etc. etc.?  Obviously, yes.  The heart of man is in part revealed by their observance of the outward ordinances as prescribed by the Lord.  Why perform a religious rite or outward ordinances in defiance of the reason behind it - the symbology and obedience to the prescribed word of God?  To do so would be empty.

 

If the Old testament was still intended to be followed, you would have a point. However, since Jesus fulfilled the law, and as a result we are now under a new covenant, the teaching from Jesus isn't about how one is baptized, but that we are identifying with him publicly. As Paul argues, "No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God." (Romans 2:29) 

The principle here is the same with Baptism. What would make it empty is to think that simply going through the motions without faith, actually means anything to God. 

[coolrok7]

LDS theology did not exist until Joseph Smith came along.

[JLHPROF]

LDS theology did not exist until Joseph Smith came along.

 

LDS theology hasn't changed since Adam (and before).  The form may have taken several shapes and colors but the underlying truths are eternal and have never changed.

[Tacenda]

Thanks Coolrok and Danielwoods for your answers.  It looks like in LDS theology everything rise and falls on the doctrine of baptism by immersion.  If there wasn't this, there would be no need for the ordinance in the temple, which leads to the other ordinances performed vicariously and for one's self.

 

There would be no need for the baptism for the dead without the doctrine of baptism by immersion.  We cannot have it any other way, and we must have the PH authority to perform it.  It's all laid out very plainly.  A tough nut to crack.  And is either really Pharisee driven or just as the Saviour wanted.  All I know is this one doctrine is a big reason the instructor of that class believed the LDS is the only true church.      

[thesometimesaint]

Thanks Coolrok and Danielwoods for your answers.  It looks like in LDS theology everything rise and falls on the doctrine of baptism by immersion.  If there wasn't this, there would be no need for the ordinance in the temple, which leads to the other ordinances performed vicariously and for one's self.

 

There would be no need for the baptism for the dead without the doctrine of baptism by immersion.  We cannot have it any other way, and we must have the PH authority to perform it.  It's all laid out very plainly.  A tough nut to crack.  And is either really Pharisee driven or just as the Saviour wanted.  All I know is this one doctrine is a big reason the instructor of that class believed the LDS is the only true church.      

 

We don't rise of fall on the doctrine of baptism alone. We rise or fall on the doctrines of Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, receipt of the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands by one hold the authority of God to do so. Anything less is just getting wet.

 

Even the Temple is an extension of those principles. We merely do the work for our dead in the hope that they will have faith, repent, accept baptism by proxy, and receive the Holy Ghost. Anything less is just our getting wet.

[Tacenda]

Ok TSS, I should have included those, sorry.

[danielwoods]

Thanks Coolrok and Danielwoods for your answers.  It looks like in LDS theology everything rise and falls on the doctrine of baptism by immersion.  If there wasn't this, there would be no need for the ordinance in the temple, which leads to the other ordinances performed vicariously and for one's self.

 

There would be no need for the baptism for the dead without the doctrine of baptism by immersion.  We cannot have it any other way, and we must have the PH authority to perform it.  It's all laid out very plainly.  A tough nut to crack.  And is either really Pharisee driven or just as the Saviour wanted.  All I know is this one doctrine is a big reason the instructor of that class believed the LDS is the only true church.      

 

It's an interesting foundational question and it's probably answered differently by different LDS believers. 

 

For me the question is what did Jesus teach? And I can't find anywhere Jesus teaching that the symbolic act of getting wet is what saves or justifies us, much less doing it for people who are gone from this Earth. 

[Anakin7]

    From some of our non LDS Christian Friends on The meaning and purpose of Baptism as Essential for Salvation and responding to criticisms that water Baptism is not needed. http://www.bebaptized.org

 

    In His Debt/Grace

            Anakin7

Edited February 9, 2015 by Anakin7

[teddyaware]

 

Verse six is a quote from the OT. That section is talking about Jewish law and doing good, as Paul states, "17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God.", which is a set up for Paul's argument that without the righteousness of Christ we are unrighteous. James also references this idea, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (James 2:10)

 

Is it talking about about making a "good faith effort"? Not at all. There is no mention of a "good faith effort".

There is no sense in the NT of Christ making up a deficit of which we could only pay part of. Rather, the teaching is that Christ paid it all. All sins, all short comings were paid by Christ. Our good works don't remit sin, because they aren't shedding blood which is what is required to remit sin, however, Jesus did. There is no description in the NT of our works making up any part of our own sin.

 

Based upon the former agreements we've had on this subject, I'm a little surprised you interpreted my remarks the way you did. Another way of making my point -- perhaps with more clarity and cogency this time -- would be to say Christ justifies his children and acquits them as righteous as they bring forth works of the Spirit, by compensating for the human imperfection found in those works. Even though the works of the Spirit are inspired and empowered by the Spirit they will, by very nature, be imperfect works because, as Paul said, we are not yet "already perfect." While it's true that we be can be immediately fully forgiven if we have the requisite faith in Christ, nevertheless, we cannot be made immediately perfect in bringing forth the works of the Spirit (perfectly in sanctification) because that entails a growing process that will not be completed until the glorious resurrection from the dead, for while in mortality we can enjoy the earnest of our inheritance but not perfection. 

 

The simple fact that we are commanded to grow in the grace and knowledge of God proves we are not already perfect in bringing forth the works of the Spirit, because the commandment to grow in grace and knowledge wouldn't be necessary unless there's still plenty of remaining room for spiritual growth. Nevertheless, even though we are imperfect, the works of the Spirit are still the works of the Spirit, and God is present in such works because, by virtue of the infinite and eternal sacrifice of Christ, God is able to inspire and empower imperfect human beings to bring forth the works of His Spirit. In light of all the above, to imagine that God is indifferent or not deeply invested in a fervent desire that His children succeed in bringing forth the works of the Spirit -- even while yet in their imperfection

-- is utter nonsense and flies in the face of the whole of holy writ.

 

As I've told you many times before, a deeply knowledgeable Latter-day Saint knows it's a relatively simple and uncomplicated thing for one to be saved so as to inherit a place in one of the Father's heavenly mansions (much the same as you believe); but overcoming the world by the power of the Spirit so that one might obtain the right to sit upon the throne of Christ's eternal power and authority takes a lot more than a mere initial profession of faith, no matter how sincere that initial profession may have been. That's why Christ tells saved believers that only those who OVERCOME will have the right to sit upon his throne and, as Paul said, thereby "obtain a more exceeding and eternal weight of glory." The Latter-day Saints are all about sanctification and that's why we constantly exhort one aother to realize we have not yet "already attained, neither (are we) already perfect: but (we) follow after, IF that (we) MAY apprehend that for which also (we are) apprehended of Christ Jesus."

 

And I must say I find your exegesis of those passages in Romans 2 to be sadly lacking, as any fair-minded person would have to admit those verses make a very good case for those who believe God earnestly desires His children be anxiously and faithfully engaged as partners with Him in the work of personal sanctification. But rather than beat a dead horse, let's go on to the next selected verses I'd like you to square with our thesis statement that God judges only the wicked, not the righteous, by their works (and when it comes to the works of the righteous, please understand that the works I'm referring tp are the works of the Spirit, not the works of unregenerate men who think they can personally earn, by their own efforts, the right to sit on Christ's throne):

 

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdomprepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visitedme: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of theleast of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. (Matthew 25)

Edited February 10, 2015 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

Based upon the former agreements we've had on this subject, I'm a little surprised you interpreted my remarks the way you did. Another way of making my point -- perhaps with more clarity and cogency this time -- would be to say Christ justifies his children and acquits them as righteous as they bring forth works of the Spirit, by compensating for the human imperfection found in those works. Even though the works of the Spirit are inspired and empowered by the Spirit they will, by very nature, be imperfect works because, as Paul said, we are not yet "already perfect." While it's true that we be can be immediately fully forgiven if we have the requisite faith in Christ, nevertheless, we cannot be made immediately perfect in bringing forth the works of the Spirit (perfectly in sanctification) because that entails a growing process that will not be completed until the glorious resurrection from the dead, for while in mortality we can enjoy the earnest of our inheritance but not perfection. 

 

The simple fact that we are commanded to grow in the grace and knowledge of God proves we are not already perfect in bringing forth the works of the Spirit, because the commandment to grow in grace and knowledge wouldn't be necessary unless there's still plenty of remaining room for spiritual growth. Nevertheless, even though we are imperfect, the works of the Spirit are still the works of the Spirit, and God is present in such works because, by virtue of the infinite and eternal sacrifice of Christ, God is able to inspire and empower imperfect human beings to bring forth the works of His Spirit. In light of all the above, to imagine that God is indifferent or not deeply invested in a fervent desire that His children succeed in bringing forth the works of the Spirit -- even while yet in their imperfection

-- is utter nonsense and flies in the face of the whole of holy writ.

 

As I've told you many times before, a deeply knowledgeable Latter-day Saint knows it's a relatively simple and uncomplicated thing for one to be saved so as to inherit a place in one of the Father's heavenly mansions (much the same as you believe); but overcoming the world by the power of the Spirit so that one might obtain the right to sit upon the throne of Christ's eternal power and authority takes a lot more than a mere initial profession of faith, no matter how sincere that initial profession may have been. That's why Christ tells saved believers that only those who OVERCOME will have the right to sit upon his throne and, as Paul said, thereby "obtain a more exceeding and eternal weight of glory." The Latter-day Saints are all about sanctification and that's why we constantly exhort one aother to realize we have not yet "already attained, neither (are we) already perfect: but (we) follow after, IF that (we) MAY apprehend that for which also (we are) apprehended of Christ Jesus."

 

And I must say I find your exegesis of those passages in Romans 2 to be sadly lacking, as any fair-minded person would have to admit those verses make a very good case for those who believe God earnestly desires His children be anxiously and faithfully engaged as partners with Him in the work of personal sanctification.

 

Two things. One, the passages in Romans 2 isn't talking about sanctification, but justification. Paul is building his argument that we are saved by grace alone. 

 

Two, in light of that context, I have been responding to your statements with that in mind. So we agree that we have not yet attained, and the spirit works in us to do good works, however, none of that contributes to our justification, because as you have just pointed out, that is a reference to the on going work of our sanctification process. 

 

But rather than beat a dead horse, let's go on to the next selected verses I'd like you to square with our thesis statement that God judges only the wicked, not the righteous, by their works (and when it comes to the works of the righteous, please understand that the works I'm referring tp are the works of the Spirit, not the works of unregenerate men who think they can personally earn, by their own efforts, the right to sit on Christ's throne):

 

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdomprepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visitedme: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of theleast of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. (Matthew 25)

Matt. 25. 

 

This passage is a parable, sheep and goats. Two groups (Not multi levels). If this was the only passage of Jesus' teaching that you were to read, I can see how one would come away with the idea that works justify us. However, it has to be understood in the context of all his teachings. The key is the word "inheritance" in verse 34. People don't earn an inheritance, nor can they work for it. But, one can lose their inheritance if they destroy the relationship with the one giving the inheritance. 

 

Again, the question is what justifies us? Doing these things doesn't justify us. Rather, those who have the spirit of Christ and are justified, do these things as a result of the Spirit living inside us. 

Which is easier, to say to the paralytic "your sins are forgiven" Or to say, "Rise up and walk"? So, that we will know that Christ has the power to forgive sin, he heals as an outward sign to help people believe and put their faith in him. The healing doesn't justify us, the works don't justify us, Christ alone does. Putting our faith in Christ alone is what justifies us. Those who do that have a changed heart, and then do the things that Jesus desires. Doing those things doesn't justify us, putting our trust and faith in Christ does. 

[teddyaware]

 

Two things. One, the passages in Romans 2 isn't talking about sanctification, but justification. Paul is building his argument that we are saved by grace alone. 

 

Two, in light of that context, I have been responding to your statements with that in mind. So we agree that we have not yet attained, and the spirit works in us to do good works, however, none of that contributes to our justification, because as you have just pointed out, that is a reference to the on going work of our sanctification process. 

 

Matt. 25. 

 

This passage is a parable, sheep and goats. Two groups (Not multi levels). If this was the only passage of Jesus' teaching that you were to read, I can see how one would come away with the idea that works justify us. However, it has to be understood in the context of all his teachings. The key is the word "inheritance" in verse 34. People don't earn an inheritance, nor can they work for it. But, one can lose their inheritance if they destroy the relationship with the one giving the inheritance. 

 

Again, the question is what justifies us? Doing these things doesn't justify us. Rather, those who have the spirit of Christ and are justified, do these things as a result of the Spirit living inside us. 

Which is easier, to say to the paralytic "your sins are forgiven" Or to say, "Rise up and walk"? So, that we will know that Christ has the power to forgive sin, he heals as an outward sign to help people believe and put their faith in him. The healing doesn't justify us, the works don't justify us, Christ alone does. Putting our faith in Christ alone is what justifies us. Those who do that have a changed heart, and then do the things that Jesus desires. Doing those things doesn't justify us, putting our trust and faith in Christ does. 

 

Now we're getting somewhere. In case you didn't notice, the thrust of my last post was speaking particularly to the process of sanctification, not justification. There's no great need for us to have a discussion about justification because Latter-day Saint soteriology declares that the less faithful converts of the Lord (those who by their own choice do not diligently purse the Lord's will for them gain full sanctification) are still saved because, even though they are not diligent unto sanctification and holiness. they do possess the degree of faith in the Saviour necessary for them to obtain a glorious resurrection in one of the Father's many mansions of eternal glory.

 

The point I was setting the stage for is that the saved are sanctified to greater or lesser degrees based upon the faithfulness they exercise unto obeying the Lord's will for them AFTER JUSTIFICATION. The fundamental misunderstanding between LDS and Evangelical apologists occurs because most Latter-day Saints aren't sophisticated enough in the nuances of their religion to be able to effectively argue the LDS position. And that's no surprise because Peter warned the entire Apostolic Era Church that Paul's teachings were arcane and difficult to understand; the net effect being that many Church members of that day were falling from their own steadfastness in Christ because they misunderstood Paul, thinking he was teaching the Church that justification was enough and that earnestly pursing sanctification unto the receipt of greater eternal rewards was unnecessary. Peter called this serious heresy, "the error of the wicked," speaking of those who thought pursing sanctification and holiness AFTER JUSTIFICATION was unnecessary because Christ had already "done it all."

 

But, sadly, in a manner of speaking. those who succumbed this pernicious "error of the wicked" were partially right because they really were still saved, but because they did despite to the Spirit of grace by not diligently pursuing sanctification they were setting themselves up to miss out on the fullness of God's eternal rewards to the authentically diligent and faithful. The Saviour solemnly warned the already justified believers of the Apostolic Era that only those among them who strove in faith to overcome the world, by earnestly following in His footsteps by means of the inspiration and power of the Spirit, would be given the right to sit on the throne of Christ as Priests and Kings. Those justified individuals who fail in this regard (the pursuit of full sanctification) will be servants in the kingdom but will not be granted the right to obtain the thorne.

 

If you want to stop wasting your time and hope to finally be able to get yourself off of the salvation by grace "hamster wheel" of debate with the Latter-day Saints, you must understand most LDS members have not studied Paul's difficult to understand soteriology as I have, but if they knew the nuances of the LDS faith as i do (I'm not bragging, but just stating a simple point of fact) they would be able to set forth the LDS beliefs as I do.

 

As I said in my previous post, to the LDS Church the justification part of the Gospel is easy if one has sufficient faith in the Saviour; it's the sanctification part of the Gospel where we LDS place much of our focus, and for this reason outsiders mistakenly think the adherents to the LDS religion believe they're justified by their imperfect works and not by the atonement of Christ. Just because the follower of Christ is imperfect as he purses "the mark" of full sanctification doesn't mean there is no divine imperative to earnestly strive to obtain that sanctification which the Lord commands us to obtain.

 

It seems to me that many Evangelicals appear think of sanctification as an unnecessary afterthought that they can peruse if they really want to, but if they do it will be with little expectation of any obvious or meaningful reward -- hence the lack of much apparent motivation. Meanwhile, the Latter-day Saints take very seriously the Lord's commandment for His followers to pursue holiness and sanctification, and so we will because we know He knows what's best for us. And we will do so not because we think our imperfect works will save us but because we know becoming more like the Lord will minister greater happiness. Try not to get too frustrated about it.  

Edited February 10, 2015 by teddyaware

[GingerRed]

Teddy that is the best explanation I've heard yet !!

Thank you!

[danielwoods]

We mostly agree, as before. The over zealous pursuit of holiness can be seen in other faiths as well. The net result usually is a legalistic culture.

The Saviour solemnly warned the already justified believers of the Apostolic Era that only those among them who strove in faith to overcome the world, by earnestly following in His footsteps by means of the inspiration and power of the Spirit, would be given the right to sit on the throne of Christ as Priests and Kings. Those justified individuals who fail in this regard (the pursuit of full sanctification) will be servants in the kingdom but will not be granted the right to obtain the thorne.

I am curious where you derive this from, I'm not saying I disagree, because maybe I've missed it. Can you point me to where this teaching is found?

[Anakin7]

     Greek for Faith is pistis [Or one of it's varients] as Believed by those who's whole being was lived in the True nature/essence of the meaning of that in the Anchient world = Allegience/Commitment/Confidence/Devotion/Discipleship/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust. Modern Evangelicalism has divorced itself and will look away at its anchient meaning.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[teddyaware]

Teddy that is the best explanation I've heard yet !!

Thank you!

 

Thank you Ginger.

 

The most important piece of doctrinal knowledge LDS Church members need in order to understand the ins and outs of the whole salvation by grace doctrine is to know that, according to the principles set forth in D&C 76 and D&C 138, all who will receive salvation in any of the three degrees of glory in heaven will eventually -- either in this life of in the spirit world -- come unto Christ in faith, repent of their sins and receive forgiveness and salvation at Christ;s hand through the atonement.

 

If asked, many Latter-day Saints will tell you the inheritors of the telestial heaven are the wicked who are mercifully given a glorious resurrection (and this even though they are still wicked and have not come unto Christ for forgiveness and salvation) for one reason alone, and that lone reason is that they have not committed the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost. But this understanding is only half true. The reality is that all who inherit any degree of glory in heaven will first have to exercise faith in Christ, repent of their sins and then receive forgiveness (justification) through Christ's atoning sacrifice. Once a Latter-day Saint becomes aware of this glorious truth they will come to realize there is no reason for endless knock-down, drag-out debates with non-LDS Christians. Why? because in the end both camps basically believe the same thing with regard to the need for justification (forgiveness) without working in an effort to try to prove to God one is righteous enough to receive God's forgiveness.

 

We are forgiven for our unrighteousness, not by virtue of any supposed righteousness of our own. We are forgiven because we confess and turn away from our unrighteousness, not because we prove to God by our works that we are no longer unrighteous. As Paul says, if it were possible for a man to prove to God by his works that he is no longer unrighteous, then there would be no need for a Saviour.

 

So what happens as a consequence of the aforesaid doctrinal ignorance on the part of many LDS Church members is that when they debate salvation by grace with the non-LDS Christians, without realizing it the Latter-day Saints are basing their arguments on the doctrine of sanctification; meanwhile, the non-LDS Christians are arguing with a focus on justification. In other words, both sides are arguing past each other. And that's why the debate goes on endlessly round and round with both sides thinking they're "scoring points" but with the debate never able to come to a satisfactory conclusion for either side; and this because both camps think they are right. And, strange as it might seem, they ARE both right without ever realizing that as the argue they are not even on the same page!

 

The LDS Church is still a very young religion, and some day better minds than mine will finally be able to fully incorporate and integrate Paul's difficult to to understand soteriology into the LDS faith in a perfectly understandable and fully logical way, thereby powerfully demonstrating to the fair-minded and honest in heart that the LDS religion perfectly harmonizes with Paul's profound Gospel perspective.

 

My advise to all who are interested in gaining a fuller understanding of this subject is to read D&C 76 and D&C 138 with perfectly open minds, temporarily putting aside anything one thinks he or she already knows, And if the Spirit is with such a seeker, it's likely his or her eyes will become open to a whole new understanding of the plan of salvation. 

Edited February 10, 2015 by teddyaware

[Anakin7]

    A response to Grace alone as understood by many a evangelical christian.    http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR286.htm

    Salvation is Absolutly Free but it will cost you your very Life Luke 14: 25-33.

     In His Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

Edited February 10, 2015 by Anakin7

[teddyaware]

     Greek for Faith is pistis [Or one of it's varients] as Believed by those who's whole being was lived in the True nature/essence of the meaning of that in the Anchient world = Allegience/Commitment/Confidence/Devotion/Discipleship/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust. Modern Evangelicalism has divorced itself and will look away at its anchient meaning.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

 

I agree with you 100% on this. But the fact is that (as I discussed in my previous post) God has made a merciful accommodation for those less valiant souls who still have some faith in Christ but who, for whatever reason, fail to put their whole souls into obtaining the full measure of sanctification and overcoming holiness promised to those who do love and worship God (live the Gospel) with all their heart, might, mind and strength. Men will be rewarded in direct proportion to the degree of faith (pistis) they exercise in and manifest through Lord. This is why there are three degrees of heavenly glory in the resurrection. All except the sons of perdition are forgiven and saved, but not all equally share in the fullness of heavenly rewards that are promised only to those who by living faith in Christ (pistis) overcome the world of sin, the fallen nature and the devil.

 

Your input is excellent, insightful and much appreciated.

Edited February 11, 2015 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

We mostly agree, as before. The over zealous pursuit of holiness can be seen in other faiths as well. The net result usually is a legalistic culture.

I am curious where you derive this from, I'm not saying I disagree, because maybe I've missed it. Can you point me to where this teaching is found?

 

In the following except from the Book of Revelation, it's important to keep in mind that the Laodicean saints, to whom the Saviour is speaking, are true believers in Christ. The Lord makes it perfectly clear that in spite of their faith in Him he is dissatisfied with the strength and genuineness of their walk unto sanctification and true holiness. The Lord then warns these believers that they must understand they are in serious jeopardy because they are failing in their quest toward obtaining full sanctification, and are called upon to demonstrate sincere repentance by renouncing their failures and thereafter redoubling their faithful efforts in mightily striving, by the Spirit, to becoming fervent and fully zealous in pursuit of true holiness.

 

To these spiritually derailed saints, the Lord then issues a simultaneous promise and solemn warning: IF they truly repent of their sorry state of spiritual lethargy, and ultimately succeed by means His gracious help (i.e. the gifts and power of God), they will be granted the unsurpassed gift of being permitted to be seated as kings and priests upon the throne of His eternal power and authority, even as He overcame (fullness of sanctification) and was thereby granted the right to be seated upon the Father's throne of eternal power and authority. In these verses there is absolutely no indication whatsoever that those who fail to fully and properly repent, and for this reason fail to succeed in overcoming the world, will by any means be granted the right to be seated upon the throne of Christ with those who actually do succeed in overcoming.

 

Bottom line? some of the saved will receive greater rewards for their faithfulness than will those who are also saved but neglect God's call to apprehend the fullness of the eternal blessings bestowed upon the willing by virtue of the sacrifice of Christ, by faithfully taking full advantage of their opportunities in Christ.

 

 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. (Revelation 3)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2015 by teddyaware

[coolrok7]

The Biblical teaching concerning Justification termed, "Justification by Faith" by Luther (myself as an Evangelical Lutheran Christian), in its essence, has the problem in the explanation by most that don't do it justice in how it is explained (which is not being by itself but in conjunction with the other "Solas" which are Scripture, Faith, Christ, Glory).

 

In our Justification before God, spoken of by Paul in Romans 4 and justification before men in James 2, the same example is used of Abraham in the offering up of Isaac. God intervenes by providing the ram for the sacrifice. God looks at the heart, we look at the raised knife in the telling of the Old Testament story. Sanctification is being set apart for works of service post our Justification before God.

 

Paul's teaching in Scripture (alone) is by grace (alone) through faith (alone) not of works and that we are created in Christ Jesus (alone) unto good works to His glory (alone). We are the benefactors of God's grace (unmerited favor) which is eternal life through faith in the Son, Jesus. There is no denial of having good works (Ephesians 2:8-10) which are a part of our Sanctification through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

Anakin7, the problem is that you're using Evangelical language to explain Mormon doctrine which is why I reject your explanations (and the links you provide).

Edited February 11, 2015 by coolrok7