BYU is at a ‘crossroads’ — Will flagship LDS school be a Notre Dame or a Liberty University?

[Teancum]

Another interesting article about BYU and it's expectations of its teachers toeing the Church position on marriage, family and LBGTQ issues.  I think BYU is heading towards being more like a Liberty University.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2025/01/14/byu-is-crossroads-it-evaluates/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1MMuiDGqXb_EqQQmUEjSGrrgeJn74O6XHrf-_Fi-WrqNRst9v727tgKMk_aem_ZT4Z2RqUGOQZNKLVp1Y9fg

Brigham Young University, says a school spokesperson, has a “unique and compelling faith-based mission to develop disciples of Jesus Christ.”

Key to enacting that mission are the school’s faculty members, according to Clark Gilbert, commissioner of education for BYU’s owner, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It’s perhaps unsurprising, then, that his tenure has been marked by ever-increasing levels of scrutiny of current and potential teachers’ beliefs, particularly on the topics of marriage, family and gender.

The problem, as professors across departments told The Salt Lake Tribune, is a lack of transparency over what counts as disqualifying, as well as the deputization of bishops (lay leaders of Latter-day Saint congregations) in playing a greater role in determining a job candidate’s mission readiness.

The result, teachers said, is widespread fear and self-censorship in and out of school on a range of issues. Others, meanwhile, are simply calling it quits in search of freer pastures at other universities.

Latter-day Saint historian Benjamin Park, a BYU alum and author of “American Zion: A New History of Mormonism,” has been a witness to these shifts and their impacts. So, too, has Latter-day Saint researcher Jana Riess, author of “The Next Mormons: How Millennials Are Changing the LDS Church” and a columnist for Religion News Service.

What has been your recent experience with BYU faculty?

Park • These are concerns that have been around and increasingly so in recent years….And this current cycle of retrenchment has seemed to be in place for about a half-decade or so, and increasing in tenacity every year.

Do you think those professors expressing concerns about BYU employment practices represent the majority of faculty or a small minority?

Riess • I would say that anecdotally, in the humanities, I have certainly observed attention among a number of people that I know who teach at BYU in humanities and in the social sciences. I think that for them, in particular, some of these issues of academic freedom can be particularly acute if their research impinges on issues of sexuality and gender, which seem to be the kind of hot-button things that the church is particularly concerned about.

[Read The Salt Lake Tribune’s story about BYU retrenchment and columnist Gordon Monson’s commentary.]

Park • Like any university, there’s a broad spectrum among the faculty on different views and relationship to the institution, and so they’re probably reacting to these recent developments in different ways. But what I can say, according to the dozens that I’m friends with and speak to, is that all are affected in one way or another. Some are more deeply aggrieved, some to the point of leaving the institution, while others certainly understand and some might agree with the necessity of retrenchment, but might not be happy with the direction or the degree to which it’s being done, or the policies that are being incorporated with it. So I think it’s fair to say that the dozens of faculty that [The Tribune] spoke to [who] don’t feel comfortable going on the record, they certainly speak for a sizable percentage of BYU faculty. … Just because some are 100% in favor of the institutional direction does not negate the fact that there are many others who are not believing the same.

What’s wrong, if anything, with requiring faculty of the church-owned school to embrace the faith’s teachings on marriage, family and gender?

 

Riess • BYU is a private religious institution. It has the right to define its own educational and religious mission as it sees fits. And it has the right to change its mind about that. .. Part of the issue, though, is that for many of these faculty who were hired with one understanding, the ground is shifting under their feet in real time, and no one is explaining, necessarily, why this person was passed over for promotion, and this person received promotion, or this person was hired, and this person was not hired.

Park • At BYU, they are setting up a very vague and nontransparent set of standards that they then expect faculty to follow, and when they don’t, there are serious repercussions, and that’s one of the major problems with this current retrenchment.

Is there a danger of chasing away faculty and students not just from BYU but also from the church?

Park • [The professors] want to be upfront about providing a model to their students of how to wrestle with the church and society in ways that can keep you grounded in the faith. Professors are doing this. They are, they are devoted to that mission. They’re not the enemies that are sometimes depicted. But in instituting this culture of secrecy, where they don’t know when they’re going to be ratted out, that they don’t know how honest they can be, that they don’t know where the boundaries are, and fear that they might cross them, it means that they are offering a lesser education for their students, that they’re giving a kind of black-and-white model, a simplified version of the gospel and education that might accord with this retrenchment but falls far short of what is needed to address these students who are yearning for a complicated, substantive discussion. I fear we’re going to lose a lot of members as a result.

Part of the system is that the people deciding your jobs happen to be ecclesiastical leaders. Do you think the situation makes a number of faculty members feel they have to lie to keep their jobs?

Riess • I have heard from some faculty members that I know who teach at one of the BYUs [who say] that they may not openly lie about something, but they are hardly going to present their full selves in that environment of fear or possible recrimination.

Park • Added to that is the fact that we don’t have a standard set of criteria for people being called to ecclesiastical positions, who then have control over these faculties and these ecclesiastical endorsements — what is typically referred to as “bishop roulette.” Some bishops are OK with some answers, while others aren’t.

What have you seen from other religious universities?

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Riess • I would say that BYU is kind of standing at a crossroads. ... On one side, we have the flagship academic university model rooted in religious tradition that these are internationally renowned universities such as Notre Dame, such as Georgetown. On the other extreme, we have Oral Roberts University. We have Liberty University, Jerry Falwell’s flagship university. And I’m going to put my cards on the table here. I would really like to see BYU follow the first model.

Park • There’s an important role that these religious universities play in America. I have lots of friends who teach at Georgetown or Baylor or Notre Dame and are able to blend a religious mission with academic rigor in important ways, and that’s long been a crucial pillar of United States society.

How do each of you think what is happening at BYU may affect its standing in the higher education community at large?

Riess • It’s been interesting in the reaction in the last few days to [The Tribune’s] story. I have seen the gamut of possible reactions from very orthodox members saying, “Great, we’re going to get rid of those progressive professors. Good riddance to them. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.” All the way to progressive members or former members, who have said that this is the death knell of BYU. … I did a little digging into the common data set of BYU application figures and retention figures…I’m talking about graduation rates, essentially, of your incoming first-year class. How many are still there after one year? How many are going to graduate? They’re excellent. So the “death knell of BYU” argument doesn’t really hold water. … I will say I am a little concerned that BYU is not preparing its students to enter a diverse workplace in which DEI [diversity, equity and inclusion] is valued as something that they need to be trained in, essentially, before they enter the workplace, before they are hired, that diversity is something that they need to be taught to respect.

Park • I do think that there is a reputation at stake to where, yes, there are lots of religious universities out there that have a set of standards and ecclesiastical requirements for students. Yes, even state schools have a set of dogma that they expect professors to follow to be able to fit in. The process through which BYU is instituting this retrenchment is unique, and it’s raising eyebrows. Having this ecclesiastical clearance office that is a shadowy group that faculty don’t know who’s on it, and somehow they’re able to veto candidates who passed the department, college, university and board of trustee approval? That’s not normal. Having unexplained and untransparent standards through which they are judging both applicants and candidates for promotion at the university and then not giving an explanation for why they were denied? That’s not usual. And other schools like Baylor or Notre Dame or Georgetown, the very [religion-based] institutions that BYU claims that they’re part of, those institutions look at those practices and say like, maybe you’re not like us, or maybe you’re not acting the way we expect someone in our class to act. Which is a shame, because BYU is filled with faculty who are on that excellent level. BYU has a phenomenal, elite group of professors who could be teaching at universities across the nation, and they could be a great religious school if they were trusted by the administration, which is clearly not the case.

To hear the podcast, go to sltrib.com/podcasts/mormonland. To receive full “Mormon Land” transcripts, along with our complete newsletter and access to all Tribune religion content, support us at Patreon.com/mormonland.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2025 by Teancum

[JVW]

Bummer there's a paywall

[JVW]

This is entirely my opinion. I'm not a BYU alum or anything like that. But I thought that BYU was always meant to be a religious institution that provides people with a college education instead of a college institution founded by a religion. There are a ton of universities, if I were a betting man I'd say probably over half, that were founded by religious institutions. Yale, Harvard, Westminster, etc. BYU has never struck me as that kind of institution. The fact that you have to get an approval letter or whatever from a LDS religious leader in order to attend, regardless of your personal religious affiliation, is one of the reasons I view BYU this way.

[webbles]

It links to https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2025/01/05/byu-blue-why-these-are-dark-days/ which seems to have more information about it.

I wonder if there is a 3rd model that is possible.  Does having a loyalty requirement mean it is following Liberty?  I believe a temple recommend is required for LDS professors at BYU, so in a sense, it has always had a loyalty requirement.

[Teancum]

35 minutes ago, JVW said:

Bummer there's a paywall

I was able to cut and paste it. See edited opening post.

[MrShorty]

54 minutes ago, JVW said:

Bummer there's a paywall

It looks like this is just the transcript of the Mormonland podcast episode, which you should be able to access through your favorite podcast app.

[Calm]

43 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

It looks like this is just the transcript of the Mormonland podcast episode, which you should be able to access through your favorite podcast app.

Also the Trib doesn’t paywall block reading their articles with the Reader option.  Click on the icon (it’s the blackened one below) and then click on “show reader”.  I felt guilty doing this years ago when I discovered this (can’t do it on my phone, just IPad), so didn’t (helped that I wasn’t tempted much, lol) but if it’s been years, they must know about it and choose not to do it, which means it’s not an unintended backdoor or forgotten loophole.

 

Edited January 14, 2025 by Calm

[MrShorty]

Perhaps it is just how I see this issue spilling out into my own experience as a non-BYU employee, but this stood out to me

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Riess: I have seen the gamut of possible reactions from very orthodox members saying, “Great, we’re going to get rid of those progressive professors. Good riddance to them. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.” All the way to progressive members or former members, who have said that this is the death knell of BYU.

Somewhere in the list of (false?) dichotomies that get bandied about is the question of whether or not the church as a whole has room for differing opinions on a variety of topics. Big tent or small tent Mormonism. Wheat and tares rhetoric. There seem to be so many ways that people predict some kind of schism in the church as it fails to figure out how to retain both staunchly conservative and wildly progressive members. As a progressive leaning member myself, the big thing I see in this whole kerfuffle is the question of whether the church wants the "selective" LDS (as Josh Coates in the FAIR presentation from the Moral Foundations thread called them) to stay in the church, or if the church would just as soon that they hurry up and get themselves fully disaffiliated.

I guess it seems to me that what this whole thing brings to my mind is -- if BYU becomes less tolerant of disagreement and dissent -- will the church as a whole also become less tolerant of disagreement and dissent? Does the church want to "squeeze" (I believe that was Bushman's word for it) dissenters out of the church?

 

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, JVW said:

This is entirely my opinion. I'm not a BYU alum or anything like that. But I thought that BYU was always meant to be a religious institution that provides people with a college education instead of a college institution founded by a religion. There are a ton of universities, if I were a betting man I'd say probably over half, that were founded by religious institutions. Yale, Harvard, Westminster, etc. BYU has never struck me as that kind of institution. The fact that you have to get an approval letter or whatever from a LDS religious leader in order to attend, regardless of your personal religious affiliation, is one of the reasons I view BYU this way.

My concern would be if BYU's educational requirements took a backseat to it's religious requirements.  A religious school that provides a second-rate education is good for little more than indoctrination in my opinion.  My other concern would be if BYU became a gatekeeper to believing membership.  I probably didn't word that well but what I mean is, I wouldn't want BYU to become the standard on which beliefs constitute a believing active member.

[blackstrap]

Is Utah an ' at will ' state ?

If you want a degree in gender studies or underwater basket weaving , BYU is probably not your best choice to attend .

[sunstoned]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

My concern would be if BYU's educational requirements took a backseat to it's religious requirements.  A religious school that provides a second-rate education is good for little more than indoctrination in my opinion.  My other concern would be if BYU became a gatekeeper to believing membership.  I probably didn't word that well but what I mean is, I wouldn't want BYU to become the standard on which beliefs constitute a believing active member.

I am a BYU alum, and I am concerned about this trend of non-transparency in the hiring, promotion, and terminating process.  It seems they are giving a lot of authority to local Bishops to determine if a professor is fit to teach at BYU.  That is scary stuff.

[Calm]

I don’t know if this is out of date, but two or three years difference seems unlikely to be much.

https://www.deseret.com/2022/10/23/23403588/byu-politically-diverse-student-body-usu-utah/

Quote

Only 10-15% of students at Ivy League schools identify as conservative, while 60-75% identify as liberal. 

The most politically diverse school in the nation, according to the study, is the University of Arkansas, while Smith College in Massachusetts came in last. At Smith, only 1% of students identified as conservative, according to the study. Student bodies at public universities – especially large, flagship schools – were more likely to be politically balanced, although most are still more liberal than the general population. 

BYU ranked as the 26th most politically balanced university in the survey, while USU came in 44th and the U. ranked 45th. Utah’s top schools had some of the most conservative student bodies in the survey, with USU ranked second and BYU ranked third for the number of students identifying as conservative.

Quote

The latest study by CSPI used data based on students’ own reporting of their political ideology and political party membership. That study showed: 

BYU’s student body was 32% liberal, 20% moderate and 48% conservative, with 30% of students identifying as Democrats and 49% as Republicans. 

At USU, 49% of students identified as conservative, compared to 21% moderate and 30% liberal, while 30% said they were Democrats and 51% Republicans. 

Among students at the U., 51% of students identified as liberal, with 26% choosing moderate and 23% conservative, while 49% of students said they were Democrats and 24% Republicans. 

The most conservative campus in the nation was Hillsdale College in Michigan, where 76% of students identified as conservative. Most of the schools from the west in the survey ranked in the top 50, with the University of Wyoming ranked 21st, the University of Idaho at 30th, and Arizona State coming in at 39th. 

The study:

https://www.cspicenter.com/p/diverse-and-divided-a-political-demography

 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

I am a BYU alum, and I am concerned about this trend of non-transparency in the hiring, promotion, and terminating process.  It seems they are giving a lot of authority to local Bishops to determine if a professor is fit to teach at BYU.  That is scary stuff.

I have a friend who was fired from BYU a week before classes started because her bishop (who was a new bishop) pulled his endorsement. A week later he called BYU and changed his mind after meeting with her, but BYU didn’t care. And of course there was no recourse for her to plead her case either. It all seemed really unfair to me.

This was probably 5 or 6 years ago I think. 

[sunstoned]

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have a friend who was fired from BYU a week before classes started because her bishop (who was a new bishop) pulled his endorsement. A week later he called BYU and changed his mind after meeting with her, but BYU didn’t care. And of course there was no recourse for her to plead her case either. It all seemed really unfair to me.

This was probably 5 or 6 years ago I think. 

That is extremely sad and unfair.

[Dario_M]

Yes Bringam Young University has his own values. But is it necessary to kick against everything that comes from the LDS community? Even when it is about an well respected university?

Edited January 15, 2025 by Dario_M

[let’s roll]

I have a number of friends on the faculty.  They don’t really think the goal posts are moving but they do believe the current administration is a bit more bureaucratic, and not as good at communicating, as prior administrations.

I may have already shared my view that BYU would be more effective in fulfilling its mission if it admitted no freshman who graduated high school in Utah.  Kids who grow up in Utah would benefit from a couple of years at an out of state school.  If they want a degree from the Y they can transfer in as a junior or senior. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, let’s roll said:

I have a number of friends on the faculty.  They don’t really think the goal posts are moving but they do believe the current administration is a bit more bureaucratic, and not as good at communicating, as prior administrations.

I may have already shared my view that BYU would be more effective in fulfilling its mission if it admitted no freshman who graduated high school in Utah.  Kids who grow up in Utah would benefit from a couple of years at an out of state school.  If they want a degree from the Y they can transfer in as a junior or senior. 

Ain't gonna happen.  A very high percentage of BYU students are RMs -- who rightly expect a civil and polite society at school, and who know that they are unlikely to find it elsewhere.

The other problem is that American colleges are closing at an unprecedented rate, and our great universities are largely imploding.  Kafkaesque and Orwellian DEI practices have ruined real scholarship and fairness.

In my opinion, BYU should have real tenure, along with an academic senate of those tenured professors, with real power -- to check any outlandish actions by administrators.  Moreover, all actions against a student or teacher must be subject to "due process," with real punishment for anyone who denies such due process.  We need to take a cue from the inspired U.S. Constitution.

When I was student at BYU, I brought a lawsuit (seeking a writ of mandamus against the student-body president) before the student supreme court, and won my case.  There must always be a check on too much power.  BYU must not be allowed to become a pretentious copy of Church Govt.

[Peacefully]

52 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The other problem is that American colleges are closing at an unprecedented rate, and our great universities are largely imploding.  Kafkaesque and Orwellian DEI practices have ruined real scholarship and fairness.

CFR please. I am very interested this. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Peacefully said:

CFR please. I am very interested this. 

Quote

At least 73 public or nonprofit colleges have closed, merged, or announced closures or mergers since March 2020.

Over 40 have closed or announced closures.

We estimate that roughly 46,650 students have been impacted by private nonprofit college closures since 2020.

For-profit colleges led closure rates from 2012-2019.[1]

Since the COVID-19 pandemic, private nonprofit colleges and universities have increasingly closed.[1]

New predictive modeling from the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia has identified more closures ahead in the event of a drastic enrollment cliff

https://www.bestcolleges.com/research/closed-colleges-list-statistics-major-closures/
 

Quote

Across the country, colleges are increasingly shuttering as enrollment continues to decline due to natural population trends and higher operating costs.

At the end of 2024, the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia developed a model to predict college closures, estimating that up to 80 colleges could close next year due to financial distress following a worst-case-scenario drop in enrollment.[2]

For-profit colleges once drove closure rates. However, in the past five years, private nonprofits have outpaced for-profit schools in this alarming trend.

BestColleges has been tracking major nonprofit college closures and mergers since 2020.

Fewer numbers of kids to enroll even if they wanted to and fewer that want to appear to be driving the closures.

Quote

Thanks to lower birthrates during the Great Recession, the college-age population will shrink beginning in 2025.

College officials call this demographic phenomenon the “enrollment cliff.”

The effects will vary based on geographic region and institutional type.

Colleges are already making adjustments to become more competitive and attract new student populations.

Today’s colleges and universities face a perfect storm of converging headwinds: Rising costs and mounting student debt. Admissions scandals amid cries of opaqueness. Political pressures to alter the curriculum. A Supreme Court seemingly eager to eradicate affirmative action. Waning public confidence.

But topping the list of concerns is that fewer and fewer young adults want what colleges offer. Enrollments have been dropping for a decade and cratered during the COVID-19 pandemic.

To make matters even worse, a dangerous precipice looms on the near horizon, a demographic phenomenon known as the enrollment cliff. Many colleges won’t survive the fall.

 

https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/analysis/looming-enrollment-cliff-poses-serious-threat-to-colleges/

Apparently wages are decent for high school grads and trade apprentices, workers are needed so much.

Quote

Now consider birthrates during the Great Recession, which began in 2008. During that time of economic stress and uncertainty, notes Carleton College economist Nathan Grawe, people were having fewer children. The number of kids born between 2008 and 2011 plummeted dramatically.

So if you graph demographic projections, the precipitous descent resembles a cliff beginning in 2025. Over the succeeding four years, the number of 18-year-olds will decrease by 15%.

How does that translate into enrollment figures? During that four-year span, colleges will lose approximately 576,000 students.

Unfortunately for higher education, this situation isn’t an aberration. College enrollments have been declining steadily since 2012. During COVID-19’s apex — from 2019 to 2022 — undergraduate enrollment dropped by 7%.

But it’s not just demographics and pandemics affecting college enrollments. A strong job market and low unemployment rates mean companies are willing to pay high wages to attract employees and persuade some high school graduates to put off college temporarily, if not permanently. One New York construction company is offering kids fresh out of high school $47 an hour following an apprenticeship.

Add that four-year opportunity cost together with student loan debt and the calculus doesn’t make sense to a growing number of young adults — especially when a company as exalted as Google tells them they don’t need a bachelor’s degree to work there.

Maybe this will lead to tuition going down?  Lower salaries for professors? So many professors needing to find alternative work?  Colleges offering alternative degrees that focus on job preparation and drop GE requirements, so three year or less program.

lol, I was right about lowering GE requirements 

https://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2024/12/10/utah-colleges-will-require-fewer/#:~:text=This month%2C every public institution,public school across the state.

Edited January 15, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Kafkaesque and Orwellian DEI practices have ruined real scholarship and fairness.

CFR please.  Would like to see evidence of this.  Went to research it and what popped us was the loss of jobs and talent and opportunities for minority students because of some states enacting antiDEI measures, including Utah.

Also came across how DEI administrators and professors have to endure high rates of harassment, women leaders twice as much as men, but men have it pretty high as well.

https://www.insidehighered.com/opinion/career-advice/conditionally-accepted/2024/08/16/challenges-dei-practitioners-experience
 

Quote

In the past two years, professionals who are antidiscrimination practitioners and hold primary responsibilities for reducing inequality in institutions of higher education have faced intense and growing pressure from the scores of state billsthat seek to eliminate or curtail DEI offices and programs at colleges and universities. And just this week, a U. S. senator asked the Office of Inspector General to investigate how colleges and universities are investing federal dollars to support DEI initiatives. Unfortunately, in addition to the wholesale dismantling of antidiscrimination initiatives, such legislative efforts—even when unsuccessful— are heightening the challenges that antidiscrimination practitioners face within their own institutions.

One result of the pressure is that antidiscrimination practitioners who work through DEI, equal opportunity, Title IX and other offices—are showing high rates of burnout and job attrition due to “contrapower harassment.” With support from the Center for Institutional Courage, we surveyed 93 such professionals at public and private comprehensive and doctoral universities in the United States in the spring of 2023. We found that they are experiencing high rates of incivility, bullying, condescension, belittling and withholding information, as well as generalized disregard for their feelings and opinions.

Quote

Our survey showed that the contrapower harassment that antidiscrimination practitioners experience is coming not from supervisors, but rather from colleagues and individuals with less institutional power, such as the reporting and respondent parties in antidiscrimination processes. One HR director, for example, reported that her professional authority was constantly challenged with rude emails, allegations, veiled threats and abuse that disabled her from exercising her duties effectively. Additionally, antidiscrimination practitioners—especially female,BIPOC, and SOGIE individuals—report hostility and challenges coming from their own administrative peers, in particular when questions of jurisdiction and accountability are also at play.

The presence of contrapower harassment of antidiscrimination practitioners is not a new phenomenon but an expected behavioral expression of the persistence of hierarchies of power and authority present in society writ large. What is new is the finding that antidiscrimination practitioners understand that contrapower harassment is not visible because it’s unlikely to be reported, is not contemplated in university policies, and has not been studied. Typically, colleges and universities have focused on keeping students safe, assuming faculty and staff members are exempt from, or immune to, student bullying or other bullying from people in ranks below.

The research on student harassment of female faculty members tells us that faculty are often unaware of support or policies that address these types of issues. One female administrator revealed that: “The bullying by my employee is a particular problem in higher education, because I am a leader and I don’t know where to go for help with this. I don’t think any university policy covers this situation.”

Moreover, it is clear that when faced with contrapower conduct, the target of the behavior may be reluctant to come forward: “To be honest, I am a bit embarrassed about this. I am supposed to be in charge here,” she added. “Every time I try and do something about it, there is another threat of a lawsuit or investigation to face.” A common concern that those who are the targets of contrapower harassment voice is the fear of embarrassment or concern for making the report. Consequently, many institutions have little or no support to assist staff and faculty members who face these forms of incivility.

Would be interesting to see who is getting more lawsuits threatened at them, those critical of DEI or those DEI administrators and leaders.  My bold

[bluebell]

It seems like the value of a college education is going down while the cost of them went up. After the boom and all the new college debt it caused a decade and a half ago I’m not surprised we seem to be moving into a bust era.

Colleges need to reevaluate their product. 

[Teancum]

15 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Perhaps it is just how I see this issue spilling out into my own experience as a non-BYU employee, but this stood out to me

Somewhere in the list of (false?) dichotomies that get bandied about is the question of whether or not the church as a whole has room for differing opinions on a variety of topics. Big tent or small tent Mormonism. Wheat and tares rhetoric. There seem to be so many ways that people predict some kind of schism in the church as it fails to figure out how to retain both staunchly conservative and wildly progressive members. As a progressive leaning member myself, the big thing I see in this whole kerfuffle is the question of whether the church wants the "selective" LDS (as Josh Coates in the FAIR presentation from the Moral Foundations thread called them) to stay in the church, or if the church would just as soon that they hurry up and get themselves fully disaffiliated.

I guess it seems to me that what this whole thing brings to my mind is -- if BYU becomes less tolerant of disagreement and dissent -- will the church as a whole also become less tolerant of disagreement and dissent? Does the church want to "squeeze" (I believe that was Bushman's word for it) dissenters out of the church?

 

It does seem like a dilemma for the church. Many years ago I heard a GA speak to this issue. It has been so long I do not recall who or even when. But the person said that the brethren seem to take into account how certain policy issues and other changes in direction impact members. They worry that on the one hand something my drive out the more liberal leaning progressive types as well as on the other, how another might drive out the more conservative hard line members. I imagine it is a tough balancing act.

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, bluebell said:

My concern would be if BYU's educational requirements took a backseat to it's religious requirements.  A religious school that provides a second-rate education is good for little more than indoctrination in my opinion.  My other concern would be if BYU became a gatekeeper to believing membership.  I probably didn't word that well but what I mean is, I wouldn't want BYU to become the standard on which beliefs constitute a believing active member.

Great observations. It seems to me that BYU has been focused on becoming a first rate institution of higher learning and has built a solid reputation in that arena.  The movement towards a more rigid litmus test for the educators may damage that.

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Ain't gonna happen.  A very high percentage of BYU students are RMs -- who rightly expect a civil and polite society at school, and who know that they are unlikely to find it elsewhere.

The other problem is that American colleges are closing at an unprecedented rate, and our great universities are largely imploding.  Kafkaesque and Orwellian DEI practices have ruined real scholarship and fairness.

In my opinion, BYU should have real tenure, along with an academic senate of those tenured professors, with real power -- to check any outlandish actions by administrators.  Moreover, all actions against a student or teacher must be subject to "due process," with real punishment for anyone who denies such due process.  We need to take a cue from the inspired U.S. Constitution.

When I was student at BYU, I brought a lawsuit (seeking a writ of mandamus against the student-body president) before the student supreme court, and won my case.  There must always be a check on too much power.  BYU must not be allowed to become a pretentious copy of Church Govt.

DEI is not the problem. The real problem in most public universities is that states have been slashing funding. Then they got rid of the faculty running the universities and put in a “professional” administrator and staff for them which eat up a LOT of money. 20-30 years ago stundents paid about 30% of the costs and the state covered about 70%. Now students pay about 80% and the state pays about 20%.

The state governments are trashing institutions that provide a lot of public goods to save a few bucks. Add in that the professional administrators have largely cut tenure as a possibility and even regular professors. A lot more of the teaching is now being done by adjunct temporary professors hired on a per semester basis for a lot less money. This leads to a decline in teaching effectiveness as professors have no security and can rarely get comfortable in their roles and regularly have to be re-hired or switch schools. They also have a much harder time doing real academic research since the temporaries don’t have much support for it.

With the fall in the pay and number of ongoing jobs at schools the permanent positions are mostly filled with old-timers now who couldn’t get their current jobs if they had to apply for them. The administrators raise tuition as much as they can and tend to spend the gains on themselves and their staff (these jobs often get turned into political gifts from politicians to donors) little of the tuition money gets to the actual teachers. A lot also goes into pet projects to attract students like climbing gyms or other ‘luxury’ perks to impress students.

It is not a red vs. blue state thing. Most every state is trashing their own university system. We get less research, worse teaching, higher tuition and people crippled by student debt, and a lot more. All so the state can save a few bucks and give donor sons and daughters some cushy well-paid admin positions. It is a mess. The Ivy League schools will survive. The state schools where the bulk of the education occurs are going to get worse and worse unless something changes. DEI and gender studies degrees are a red herring to cover up what state legislatures are doing and to cover up their looting.

[let’s roll]

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Ain't gonna happen.  A very high percentage of BYU students are RMs -- who rightly expect a civil and polite society at school, and who know that they are unlikely to find it elsewhere.

I didn’t say it was going to happen, I said I believed the school would better fulfill its mission if it did.  My experience at the school as a student from New York was a helpful one, it introduced me to the LDS culture, although I did miss the diversity of thought and demographics that I valued in NY and OR.  I’m not sure how much UT students’ experience is expanded and rounded by attending BYU for 4 years, certainly not as much as if they went to school for a time out of state.

My experience with the school as a recruiter for law firms, specifically the law school, has been frustrating.  The vast majority of the students appear to have little interest in a career outside of the intermountain west.  I understand there is a perceived safety in the familiar, but the Savior didn’t avoid, and in fact sought out, societies that were not “civil and polite” and invited His disciples to do the same, charging them to go “into all the world.”

I think the Lord would be pleased if more graduates of BYU heeded the invitation to “go forth and serve” by serving outside the intermountain west and I believe more would be both willing and well equipped to do so if a portion of their college education was experienced at a school other than the Y.