Church members who leave the church

[Dario_M]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Definitely not (the 1 million)….except in the sense a bishop is a pastor to everyone who lives in his ward boundaries and Saints should treat everyone as family, imo.

Offcourse. 

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Maybe half claim to be Saints in Salt Lake County depending on what measure you use, but my guess is likely much less would claim to be if on an anonymous survey.  Some fear losing their job if it gets known they are no longer believers.

That's also something that just surprises me. That the situation can get so serious that you can even lose your job if you decide that you no longer wanna be a member of the LDS community. That's only in Utah. Nowhere in any other place in the world you have that kind of situation. 

9 hours ago, Calm said:

whether they need to worry or not (a few probably need to worry, my guess is most don’t as it’s pretty common now to be open about losing one’s belief in the Church as God’s.   Active LDS are a minority in Utah state.

Really? While you find the most saints in Utah. Edit...oh wait no, you find the most saints in Provo. 

9 hours ago, Calm said:

More likely these days I am guessing if they are not going to church, they are less likely to think of themselves as LDS too, though many still do.

Provo has a massive number of Saints due to BYU being there.  As do the surrounding cities and towns.

I thought that the Brigham Young University was located in Salt Lake City. Well...learned something new again hahaha. 

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

thought that the Brigham Young University was located in Salt Lake City. Well...learned something new again hahaha. 

A lot of people do if they don’t live in Utah.

[Dario_M]

42 minutes ago, Calm said:

A lot of people do if they don’t live in Utah.

😅

[Teancum]

On 9/26/2024 at 10:38 AM, Dario_M said:

Like i allready have said (a few times) i'm not interested in gossip media. I hope you understand?

No I do not understand. JS's plural marriages are well documented. 

[Dario_M]

29 minutes ago, Teancum said:

No I do not understand. JS's plural marriages are well documented. 

Okay whatever you want.🤷‍♀️

[Gabriel]

Hi;

I was a member of the church for 30 years. Was a missionary, played several roles in the church such as Ward president and even worked at the church offices for 2 years. Been to the temples many times in Swiss, Spain and Texas and met several general authorities including Gordon B Hinckley, Holland and many others.

My decision back in 2007 to leave the church was based on findings in regards the church beginnings and teachings. The creation of the book of Mormon, hidden stories of J Smith, the erroneous teachings of Birmingham Young where he taught things such as that Adam was God and many other hidden lies when comparing to the bible and the gospel. I guess the final drop was when I learnt of Mark Hoffman and how he decided the church prophet and apostles for years by providing false documents the church were scared to be brought to light and was willing to pay him hundred of thousands of dollars to have them kept away, that was when I realised that there was really no divine guidance in the LDS church.

 

Apart from that I do not hate Mormons not i consider my self "anti-Mormon". I also do not hate Mormonism I just left the church because I understood it i not true in its origins and for me Genuity and authenticity is important. I don't want to go and say " I know the church is true and that JS was a prophet if God" when I know it is not and was not so that is why I left.

Other than that and for those who may even know the church may not be what it claims to be but still prefer to stay part of the church for the good and loving teachings it shares and to preserve family ties I think it is a good choice as it is better that than have no faith or moral at all. But if you looking for authenticity and genuine primitive church that cannot be found in the LDS church im afraid you would need to go back to the church roots and get into Catholicism and even Orthodoxy to really meet the mystery of the faith and God which is a path I have converted into and have not regret since then.

Apart from all that I still time to time listen to Mormon hymns  Things come and go but the music stays forever. No hate at all just I got a testimony that the LDS church is not true to what it claims to be on its origins, but of course it has many common teachings in line with Christianity and a great community but and again it depends what you looking for... just a good string community church or that plus genuity. i need both to feel complete, but again if I was born in a Mormon family since birth and all my family was happy and united into the the LDS church I would probably have stayed even if I would find out it is not true just for the sake of staying together with my family ( but probably would hurt to hear my children share testimonies of things I knew were not true) but I guess that is better than being a criminal or a terrorist so I could cope with that  

[Dario_M]

5 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

Hi;

I was a member of the church for 30 years. Was a missionary, played several roles in the church such as Ward president and even worked at the church offices for 2 years. Been to the temples many times in Swiss, Spain and Texas and met several general authorities including Gordon B Hinckley, Holland and many others.

Oh how cool. I also wanna meet mister Holland but i'm afrait he is out of reach for me.

5 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

My decision back in 2007 to leave the church was based on findings in regards the church beginnings and teachings. The creation of the book of Mormon, hidden stories of J Smith, the erroneous teachings of Birmingham Young where he taught things such as that Adam was God.

Oh really? Where is the proof that Young have claimt that Adam is God? 

5 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

and many other hidden lies when comparing to the bible and the gospel. I guess the final drop was when I learnt of Mark Hoffman and how he decided the church prophet and apostles for years by providing false documents the church were scared to be brought to light and was willing to pay him hundred of thousands of dollars to have them kept away, that was when I realised that there was really no divine guidance in the LDS church.

Well..i've never heard about that. When did that happen? About 200 years ago? 

5 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

Apart from that I do not hate Mormons not i consider my self "anti-Mormon". I also do not hate Mormonism I just left the church because I understood it i not true in its origins and for me Genuity and authenticity is important. I don't want to go and say " I know the church is true and that JS was a prophet if God" when I know it is not and was not so that is why I left.

But maybe Joseph Smith was genuine about his revelations and so he might be a real prophet. He was not the only one who saw angels and saints. Far into the history more people have claimt that they have spoken with angels.

5 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

Other than that and for those who may even know the church may not be what it claims to be but still prefer to stay part of the church for the good and loving teachings it shares and to preserve family ties I think it is a good choice as it is better that than have no faith or moral at all. But if you looking for authenticity and genuine primitive church that cannot be found in the LDS church im afraid you would need to go back to the church roots and get into Catholicism and even Orthodoxy to really meet the mystery of the faith and God which is a path I have converted into and have not regret since then.

Agree. Catholicism is also a beautiful path to follow. Bevore i got acquainted with the LDS community i was also often in a catholic church and actually wanted to be part of the catholic church community. But fate decided otherwise. 

5 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

Apart from all that I still time to time listen to Mormon hymns

Psalms are also beautiful to listen to. Or gregorian chants. 

 

[MustardSeed]

32 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

Ward president

What is that?  Maybe a Bishop, or stake president? 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Oh how cool. I also wanna meet mister Holland but i'm afrait he is out of reach for me.

Oh really? Where is the proof that Young have claimt that Adam is God? 

Well..i've never heard about that. When did that happen? About 200 years ago? 

But maybe Joseph Smith was genuine about his revelations and so he might be a real prophet. He was not the only one who saw angels and saints. Far into the history more people have claimt that they have spoken with angels.

Agree. Catholicism is also a beautiful path to follow. Bevore i got acquainted with the LDS community i was also often in a catholic church and actually wanted to be part of the catholic church community. But fate decided otherwise. 

Psalms are also beautiful to listen to. Or gregorian chants. 

 

Gabriel’s version of Mark Hofmann isn’t quite accurate plus there is debate over what Brigham really meant when he said Adam was God because he used “Adam” as a title as well as a name. I am not saying here that he was a traditional believer, just saying there is confusion over what he meant for good reason. 
 

I will provide links if you are interested later on. Taking my daughter to the doctor for her quarterly checkup. 

Edited October 11, 2024 by Calm

[california boy]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

What is that?  Maybe a Bishop, or stake president? 

I though he might be talking about a Branch President

 

[Gabriel]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Gabriel’s version of Mark Hoffmann isn’t quite accurate plus there is debate over what Brigham really meant when he said Adam was God because he used “Adam” as a title as well as a name. I am not saying here that he was a traditional believer, just saying there is confusion over what he meant for good reason. 
 

I will provide links if you are interested later on. Taking my daughter to the doctor for her quarterly checkup. 

Mark Hoffman was an episode that occurred during the 80's the story can be found online. Basically he was a forger of documents and created many to embarrass the church in regards its roots and JS. The fact that the church took them as genuine (as they were considered genuine documents by experts) and bought them from Hoffman (several documents during years) it's clear enough about where revelation stands. 

Note that I'm not here to argue about the faith and Mormonism I just shared my answer to this topic on why I left. That is my story and been a long time no regrets. All that I have mentioned here can be found on church sources such as Adam God theory etc.. 

My point here was sharing my views for those who agree or disagree and for those who want to look for evidence can always find it and for those who do not or want to ignore it can always do it, so my arguments will not change perspectives neither I think that should be. One should always take the decision to stay or leave by its own accord, research and consideration.

Saying all that I believe that there are Mormons who really know Jesus and that will be saved. I do not believe that salvation is concerned to a denomination by to God's will who is the only One who knows men's hearts, so would be imprudent in my opinion to think otherwise.

To note also that English is not my first language so yes terms such as Ward President would apply for a Bishop and yes met few general authorities not by the means of private or exclusive access but when they would visit my country for conferences and once at a Temple dedication where I was apart of the choir had the opportunity to greet by handshake Gordon B Hinckley and Thomas S Monson, but by no means i have had ever personal conversation with them apart from a few 70's authorities i had the change to meet while i worked at the church offices back in my country.

During my time as a Bishop had the opportunity to do all those things that Bishops do such as interview people tor Temple recommendations, organize with my counsellors tithings and offerings and all the things you all know Bishops do. Was a pleasure to serve and work on something I believe at the time to be true and so grateful for all members that put their trust in me while I was carrying such tasks. Did many friends during my 2 years as a missionary and well nothing really bad to say about it, not to mention all other activities such as single adults trips and so many things i was part of so no hard feelings and not intending to gang up.

Do I find communion, friendship, love and enjoy in music (such the catholic songs and chants) in my current faith. Absolutely yes, but I found something else I never found in the LDS church and that was the only missing link or else I would have stayed.

 

 

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

The fact that the church took them as genuine

Some were accepted as genuine, some they had doubts about…could have been from that time period as experts accepted, but could have been a forgery still.

Quote

 

3 January 1984: Hofmann tried to persuade both President Hinckley and the Church Historical Department to purchase the "Salamander Letter." Both declined:

Lyn Jacobs [an associate of Hofmann's] visited the Historical Department to talk to don Schmidt. He showed Schmidt [the salamander letter]....Jacobs suggested it might be one the church would like to own. Jacobs said he wanted a ten-dollar Mormon gold piece for it. The most coveted item among collectors of Mormon money, the rare coin was extremely valuable. Schmidt thought Jacobs had an inflated idea of the letter's worth and told him he would never get what he was asking....Knowing that the price he was asking exceeded what Schmidt and [supervising general authority Elder G. Homer] Durham were authorized to spend for acquisitions, Jacobs had already made an appointment with Gordon Hinckley...

Jacobs again offered to give the letter to the church in exchange for a ten-dollar Mormon gold piece, whose value Jacobs would later approximate at from sixty to over one hundred thousand dollars. Like Schmidt and Durham, Hinckley said he felt the asking price was too high. Jacobs then offered to trade the letter for a copy of A Book of Commandments, valued by Jacobs at thirty to forty thousand dollars. Hinckley considered the offer briefly, then said of the letter, 'I don't know if we really want it.'

...After Jacobs failed to persuade Hinckley to buy the letter, he went back to see Schmidt [in the Historical Department]. Schmidt tried to convince Jacobs that he was asking too much for the document, explaining that only if he dropped his price to a reasonable figure would the church consider buying it.

'What's that?" Schmidt recalled Jacobs saying when he mentioned a 'reasonable figure.'

'Well,' Schmidt responded, 'you get down there, and I'll tell you when it's reasonable.'

'You have to have it,' Jacobs insisted of the letter.

'No, I don't have to have it,' Schmidt replied. 'No such thing.'

Later, Hofmann tried his own hand at offering it to the Historical Department through Schmidt. Hofmann left the document with Schmidt, who took it in to his supervisor, Earl Olson. 'He and I read it carefully,' Olson recalled. 'Remarked that it did not ring true, and that it bore too much resemblance to the story in Howe's 'Mormonism Unveiled' [sic; the actual title is Mormonism Unvailed]. We invited Elder Durham to sit down with us and read it, then brought out Howe's book and compared the stories. This was reported to Pres. Hinckley. It was decided that we should not purchase the letter....^[2]

 

 

Quote

12 April 1985: Steven F. Christensen, who had purchased the Salamander Letter from Hofmann on 6 January 1984, donated it to the Church. President Hinckley accepted the donation.

28 April 1985: The Church News published the full text of the Salamander Letter

The First Presidency included a statement, quoting President Hinckley:

No one, of course, can be certain that Martin Harris wrote the document. However, at this point we accept the judgment of the examiner that there is no indication that it is a forgery. This does not preclude the possibility that it may have been forged at a time when the Church had many enemies. It is, however, an interesting document of the times.^[6]

 

Quote

As a result, the news media are particularly susceptible to conveying erroneous information about facts, including historical developments that are based on what I have called scientific uncertainties. This susceptibility obviously applies to newly discovered documents whose authenticity turns on an evaluation of handwriting, paper, ink, and so on. Readers should be skeptical about the authenticity of such documents, especially when there is uncertainty where they were found or who had custody of them for 150 years. Newly found historically important documents can be extremely valuable, so there is a powerful incentive for those who own them to advocate and support their authenticity. The recent spectacular fraud involving the so-called Hitler diaries reminds us of this, and should convince us to be cautious

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Did_the_Church_purchase_documents_such_as_Mark_Hofmann's_"Salamander_letter"_with_the_intent_of_hiding_and_suppressing_them%3F

Edited October 10, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

To note also that English is not my first language so yes terms such as Ward President would apply for a Bishop and yes met few general authorities not by the means of private or exclusive access but when they would visit my country for conferences and once at a Temple dedication where I was apart of the choir had the opportunity to greet by handshake Gordon B Hinckley and Thomas S Monson, but by no means i have had ever personal conversation with them apart from a few 70's authorities i had the change to meet while i worked at the church offices back in my country.

Thank you for clarifying, this is significantly different than what I first understood you to say, so I would have significantly misunderstood you if you had not.

Your English is excellent, btw.  I am jealous of those who make having a second or third language look so easy.  I have always been embarrassingly awful at understanding and speaking even Spanish after a couple of years in high school and one year in college.  I couldn’t even figure out all the letters in the Cyrillic alphabet when we lived in Russia, four of them just wouldn’t click for me.

Edited October 10, 2024 by Calm

[Gabriel]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Some were accepted as genuine, some they had doubts about…could have been from that time period as experts accepted, but could have been a forgery still.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Did_the_Church_purchase_documents_such_as_Mark_Hofmann's_"Salamander_letter"_with_the_intent_of_hiding_and_suppressing_them%3F

The letter was bought https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salamander_letter and many others as much as even Jeffrey Holland make a comment about the ways of God showing revelation like Moses and the burning bush or as simple as a "Salamander" that was a topic in the Ensign back then as the church was really buying into it. We know for a fact that transaction between the church and Hoffman took place there was plenty of evidence of bank account transfers so there is no way to hide it. The question is why would the church sacrifice hundred of thousands of dollars of honest tithing to buy forgeries if there is revelations is the real question to ask and note these transaction occurred form a period of 5 years several documents it was not just a one off. It's food for thought and there are many sources even photos of Hoffman with Hinckley and other authorities looking at the documents he presented and that he lied to have found in vintage books as reliques. it was embarrassing to the church let's be honest and it does not fit with modern revelation at all.  

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Gabriel said:

The question is why would the church sacrifice hundred of thousands of dollars of honest tithing to buy forgeries

Because we are commanded to collect records of antimormon work as well as our own and old forgeries would fall in that category.  I am trying to remember what verse in the D&C it is, but spacing on it.   Maybe someone else remembers?  

Iirc, BYU’s library has a big collection of such things.  Makes sense the Church History Library would as well.

I am not arguing that God told our leaders that Hofmann’s works were forgeries or that our leaders had special insight into them.  I would argue that none of the forgeries had any significant impact on our doctrines, teachings, or policies, iow, they were pretty much ignored from that angle, at least by church leadership.

I would debate if receiving such revelation is in line with how God works with his prophets.  In some ways perhaps, but others make me think of how God allowed women and children to be consumed by fire when the wicked threw them in the pit and Alma was not allowed to act to save them.  Why did Jesus allow Judas to become a member of the 12 and then betray him?  I wonder how many doubted he received revelation based on that.

Maybe closer to the forgeries is the verse below indicating God wasn’t intending to turn Joseph (and therefore any prophet) into a lie detector.  For whatever reason such does not suit God’s purposes.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/10?lang=eng#p22

Quote

37 But as you cannot always judge the righteous, or as you cannot always tell the wicked from the righteous, therefore I say unto you, hold your peace until I shall see fit to make all things known unto the world concerning the matter.

It does not surprise me many are troubled by such things even to the point of losing faith.  I don’t have answers myself for the problem of evil in the world.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/14?lang=eng

Edited October 11, 2024 by Calm

[webbles]

47 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

The letter was bought https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salamander_letter and many others as much as even Jeffrey Holland make a comment about the ways of God showing revelation like Moses and the burning bush or as simple as a "Salamander" that was a topic in the Ensign back then as the church was really buying into it. We know for a fact that transaction between the church and Hoffman took place there was plenty of evidence of bank account transfers so there is no way to hide it. The question is why would the church sacrifice hundred of thousands of dollars of honest tithing to buy forgeries if there is revelations is the real question to ask and note these transaction occurred form a period of 5 years several documents it was not just a one off. It's food for thought and there are many sources even photos of Hoffman with Hinckley and other authorities looking at the documents he presented and that he lied to have found in vintage books as reliques. it was embarrassing to the church let's be honest and it does not fit with modern revelation at all. 

Just curious if you have links to the evidence that traces money from the church to Mark Hoffman for the Salamander Letter.  Because, I don't recall there was.  Hoffman tried to sell it to the church but they turned him down.  He sold it to Steven F. Christensen who donated it to the church.  I don't recall seeing evidence of bank transfers from the church to Christensen or to Hoffman.  There's other artifacts that the church did buy from Hoffman (such as the Joseph Smith III blessing) but I don't know if any church money was used for the Salamander Letter.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Gabriel said:

question is why would the church sacrifice hundred of thousands of dollars

CFR it was hundreds of thousands. (CFR means “call for reference” and according to board rules, you need to provide documentation for this).  Just to be clear, I am sincerely interested in the claim and wondering what your sources are.  As far as I am currently aware, thr below is the best info, but it’s been years since I looked into this in depth and perhaps I forgot or never knew there was more info on dollar amount of what the Church paid out there.

Quote

 

Parenthetically, I remind you that all of these documents were listed publicly over a year ago, together with their total cash purchase price of $57,100, plus traded documents of undetermined value. Despite this disclosure, some persons perpetuated the rumor that the Church’s acquisitions from Hofmann exceeded a million dollars. A recent newspaper estimate fixed his total transactions with Utah and Arizona buyers and lenders at more than $1.5 million. The Church’s acquisitions were obviously a small part of that total.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1987/10/recent-events-involving-church-history-and-forged-documents?lang=eng

Edited October 11, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Oh really? Where is the proof that Young have claimt that Adam is God? 

Dario, here is some info on this:

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Brigham_Young_and_Adam-God_theory

[Gabriel]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Because we are commanded to collect records of antimormon work as well as our own and old forgeries would fall in that category.  I am trying to remember what verse in the D&C it is, but spacing on it.   Maybe someone else remembers?  

Iirc, BYU’s library has a big collection of such things.  Makes sense the Church History Library would as well.

I am not arguing that God told our leaders that Hofmann’s works were forgeries or that our leaders had special insight into them.  I would argue that none of the forgeries had any significant impact on our doctrines, teachings, or policies, iow, they were pretty much ignored from that angle, at least by church leadership.

I would debate if receiving such revelation is in line with how God works with his prophets.  In some ways perhaps, but others make me think of how God allowed women and children to be consumed by fire when the wicked threw them in the pit and Alma was not allowed to act to save them.  Why did Jesus allow Judas to become a member of the 12 and then betray him?  I wonder how many doubted he received revelation based on that.

It does not surprise me many are troubled by such things even to the point of losing faith.  I don’t have answers myself for the problem of evil in the world.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/14?lang=eng

The question is not the action but the purpose. Judas case was purposeful to deliver Jesus to his fate. Buying antimormon fakes is not purposeful, but only if those fakes were taken as genuine which was the case or else the church would need to spend billions of dollars every month buying antimormon material that comes out every day by any possible source.

The only reason the church bought the letters it's because they believed to be authentic not to be fraudulent so there is no mistake in there. When God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son was to test his faith. To say that God would allow the LDS seers and Prophet to be deceived for years into buying forgeries to test our faith would be quite far fetched in my opinion. 

This is also another problem I found in Mormonism which is no matter the challenge and the question, it cannot be ever looked with doubt as doubt is not having faith an therefore wrong. As an LDS one must always find an answer to the problem and if no answer is found then NEVER question the faith or if "something be wrong with the LDS faith"

Unfortunately there is never an open possibility to discuss this things because the LDS thinking  way is "letting" the devil deceive us and doubt the faith if one questions, therefore it is extremely challenging having a two way open discussion where we take a  look at both religion and facts in a parallel way as the mindset is always "do not question something if you cannot understand or even if makes no sense."

However if for example the Salamander letter was backing up Mormonism instead and a means to proof and validate the Mormon faith both religiously or even geographically, that would be used as a way of adding to ones testimony that the church is true. So it is really one sided biased view on which an argument cannot be debated in full fairness. 

In order for an LDS have a true open discussion it needs to open to both possibilities of the church being true or not and then investigate and since the option not being true cannot be an option therefore the verdict will be always the same no matter what evidence is presented.

[webbles]

27 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

The question is not the action but the purpose. Judas case was purposeful to deliver Jesus to his fate. Buying antimormon fakes is not purposeful, but only if those fakes were taken as genuine which was the case or else the church would need to spend billions of dollars every month buying antimormon material that comes out every day by any possible source.

The Church's History Library is probably the largest library of Anti-Mormon literature.  Its directory, back in 2017, said that in a FAIR conference - https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2017/witnessing-book-mormon-testimonies-three-eight-millions

Quote

But we also happen to have the world’s largest anti-Mormon collection and that’s because of [Doctrine and Covenants] section 123 – an instruction that counseled the early Saints to gather up libelous publications, magazines, encyclopedias, histories. That’s a practice that we’ve continued through the twenty-first century.

So, it does have a purpose to fulfill a commandment of God.  And it doesn't seem like the church needs to spend billions of dollars every month.

 

35 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

The only reason the church bought the letters it's because they believed to be authentic not to be fraudulent so there is no mistake in there.

This is a nice conjecture but do you have any facts to back it up?  Here's President Hinckley in 1985, shortly after the church purchased the 1825 Joseph Smith letter and acquired the Salamander Letter - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1985/09/keep-the-faith?lang=eng#p31

Quote

I am glad we have them. They are interesting documents of whose authenticity we are not certain and may never be. However, assuming that they are authentic, they are valuable writings of the period out of which they have come. But they have no real relevancy to the question of the authenticity of the Church or of the divine origin of the Book of Mormon.

Quote

Much has been said about the Martin Harris/ W. W. Phelps letter. I ask: Shall two men, their character, their faith, their lives, the testimonies to which they gave voice to the end of their days, be judged by a few words on a sheet of paper that may or may not have been written by the one and received by the other?

That doesn't sound like a person who believes that the letters are authentic.

[Rain]

59 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

The question is not the action but the purpose. Judas case was purposeful to deliver Jesus to his fate. Buying antimormon fakes is not purposeful, but only if those fakes were taken as genuine which was the case or else the church would need to spend billions of dollars every month buying antimormon material that comes out every day by any possible source.

The only reason the church bought the letters it's because they believed to be authentic not to be fraudulent so there is no mistake in there. When God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son was to test his faith. To say that God would allow the LDS seers and Prophet to be deceived for years into buying forgeries to test our faith would be quite far fetched in my opinion. 

This is also another problem I found in Mormonism which is no matter the challenge and the question, it cannot be ever looked with doubt as doubt is not having faith an therefore wrong. As an LDS one must always find an answer to the problem and if no answer is found then NEVER question the faith or if "something be wrong with the LDS faith"

Unfortunately there is never an open possibility to discuss this things because the LDS thinking  way is "letting" the devil deceive us and doubt the faith if one questions, therefore it is extremely challenging having a two way open discussion where we take a  look at both religion and facts in a parallel way as the mindset is always "do not question something if you cannot understand or even if makes no sense."

However if for example the Salamander letter was backing up Mormonism instead and a means to proof and validate the Mormon faith both religiously or even geographically, that would be used as a way of adding to ones testimony that the church is true. So it is really one sided biased view on which an argument cannot be debated in full fairness. 

In order for an LDS have a true open discussion it needs to open to both possibilities of the church being true or not and then investigate and since the option not being true cannot be an option therefore the verdict will be always the same no matter what evidence is presented.

You are new to the board so it's understandable that you would say this to calm.  What you don't know is that she is very open and full of questions.  I no longer believe in the church, but have long talked with her and she does not have an automatic trigger of not doubting.  She has a great curiousity and is always questioning and seeing things at every angle.

[Malc]

2 minutes ago, Rain said:

You are new to the board so it's understandable that you would say this to calm.  What you don't know is that she is very open and full of questions.  I no longer believe in the church, but have long talked with her and she does not have an automatic trigger of not doubting.  She has a great curiousity and is always questioning and seeing things at every angle.

I second that.

Calm and I disagree on many points - she is a believer, and I'm an apostate, so that pretty much goes without saying.

But I am compelled to recognise her even-handedness, and her compassion towards people of all persuasions and states of belief and unbelief. She is one of the main reasons I keep coming back here.

[Gabriel]

The Salamander letter was purchased by the church in 1984 for $40,000 USD. It seems quite a lot of money at the time for something one would not be sure to be authentic or have no relevance to the church or the faith. I believe a little divine inspiration would be appropriate to exist. The church actually even paid forger Mark Hofmann $185,000  for fake documents he created and that the church already had in its possession. Isn't that a quite bad management of church funds? More it looks how desperate the church was to get them that even didn't took the time to look into its own achieves afraid that those documents would fall into other hands. Hoffman obviously was playing the "good Mormon" given the church priority to obtain them.

apart from those mentioned above the Church said they’d “acquired another forty-eight documents directly from Mark W. Hofmann for a total cash purchase price of $57,100, and forty-one others, less valuable, by donation or trade.”

Basically the church spend a quarter of a million USD to buy forgeries from Hoffman in a course of 4 or so years. That is already a lot of money but translated to todays date is equivalent of $750k USD.

One can portrait it as it wants but it was a very embarrassing moment to the church and it's significance in terms of leadership. it can be looked at of many angles in order to portray that such was only business and do not have no impact or connection with the spiritual part, but it really does tell a lot. The LDS prophet and apostles are takes as seers and revelators, but they couldn't really see and reveal much on the fake manuscripts created by Hoffman with exquisite and invented "alphabet".

Like I said the LDS church is a great church and community. The spirit can be felt when one has good thoughts and really speaks of the gospel and that can be felt at almost any church out there. But the LDS claim of restoration is bold and with that needs to be measured with the same level and unfortunately it doe not pass the test. Other than that a great church indeed and people.

 

[webbles]

20 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

The Salamander letter was purchased by the church in 1984 for $40,000 USD. It seems quite a lot of money at the time for something one would not be sure to be authentic or have no relevance to the church or the faith. I believe a little divine inspiration would be appropriate to exist. The church actually even paid forger Mark Hofmann $185,000  for fake documents he created and that the church already had in its possession. Isn't that a quite bad management of church funds? More it looks how desperate the church was to get them that even didn't took the time to look into its own achieves afraid that those documents would fall into other hands. Hoffman obviously was playing the "good Mormon" given the church priority to obtain them.

apart from those mentioned above the Church said they’d “acquired another forty-eight documents directly from Mark W. Hofmann for a total cash purchase price of $57,100, and forty-one others, less valuable, by donation or trade.”

Basically the church spend a quarter of a million USD to buy forgeries from Hoffman in a course of 4 or so years. That is already a lot of money but translated to todays date is equivalent of $750k USD.

One can portrait it as it wants but it was a very embarrassing moment to the church and it's significance in terms of leadership. it can be looked at of many angles in order to portray that such was only business and do not have no impact or connection with the spiritual part, but it really does tell a lot. The LDS prophet and apostles are takes as seers and revelators, but they couldn't really see and reveal much on the fake manuscripts created by Hoffman with exquisite and invented "alphabet".

Like I said the LDS church is a great church and community. The spirit can be felt when one has good thoughts and really speaks of the gospel and that can be felt at almost any church out there. But the LDS claim of restoration is bold and with that needs to be measured with the same level and unfortunately it doe not pass the test. Other than that a great church indeed and people.

 

Can you link your sources?  I'd love to see where it says the church bought the letter since everything I've seen said the church didn't buy it.  I'd also love to see the list of fake documents that the church already had in its possession.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

Can you link your sources?  I'd love to see where it says the church bought the letter since everything I've seen said the church didn't buy it.  I'd also love to see the list of fake documents that the church already had in its possession.

@Gabriel, if you see this, @webbles is an information gatherer IMO, and most likely curious about what you say, and not debating or questioning it. Or maybe I shouldn't speak for webbles. It's just my experience and when I see webbles I think wiki.

Edited October 11, 2024 by Tacenda