Church members who leave the church

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Dario_M said:

My church knows that i'm together with another man and i still have my temple recommend.

I don’t mean to be disrespectful to you or your leaders but that is not in harmony with Church teachings and practice. 

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

To be clear, are you speaking of all his other sons and daughters or just the ones we have letters to?

I have repeatedly referenced the letters in Jesse’s book, and I have expressed hopes that letters to his other children also be collected. They lived in  extraordinarily difficult times.  I reckon they were doing the best they could. 

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Ummmm……no.

And so I have repeatedly expressed the wish that other correspondences between him and his children be collected. They made the best of extremely difficult times. I can’t imagine how hard it was.

[Dario_M]

20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I’m so sorry. Do you need a hug?

I love hugs. Especially from men. 🩵🫂

[Dario_M]

22 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I don’t mean to be disrespectful to you or your leaders but that is not in harmony with Church teachings and practice. 

I know. In the time i was in Portugal they also made a deal about it. But here in the Netherlands they just don't. 

Edited October 2, 2024 by Dario_M

[The Nehor]

43 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have repeatedly referenced the letters in Jesse’s book, and I have expressed hopes that letters to his other children also be collected. They lived in  extraordinarily difficult times.  I reckon they were doing the best they could. 

Yes, times were undoubtedly very rough for the *checks notes* ultra-wealthy of Utah.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I’m so sorry. Do you need a hug?

Can I get one?  I can’t watch anything after the first three (produced) without having fits.

Edited October 2, 2024 by Calm

[Dario_M]

A big hug for @Calm 🫂

[InCognitus]

On 10/1/2024 at 6:27 AM, Frank11 said:

But even if I actually had a fantastic encounter with a supernatural being and it told me to found a new church, absolutely nothing would start unless I could convince at least one person. 

On the other hand, if I sit on the sofa at home and think up a great story in which I have a supernatural appearance and there are people who believe me, then my movement begins and only then does my power over them begin. 

It is not important whether the story actually happened, it is only important that people believe that it happened.

The big difference between your story above and the early events of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that it wasn't just one person saying they saw a supernatural being.  Oliver Cowdery participated in the visitation of John the Baptist, Moroni, Jesus, Moses, Elias and Elijah (at a minimum).  Sidney Rigdon was with Joseph Smith for a vision in which Jesus appeared.  There were other witnesses who backed up the events that transpired as well.

[Frank11]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

The big difference between your story above and the early events of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that it wasn't just one person saying they saw a supernatural being.  Oliver Cowdery participated in the visitation of John the Baptist, Moroni, Jesus, Moses, Elias and Elijah (at a minimum).  Sidney Rigdon was with Joseph Smith for a vision in which Jesus appeared.  There were other witnesses who backed up the events that transpired as well.

Yes, Joseph Smith and Oliver Codery had a great vision in the Kirtland Temple and a lot of prominent biblical figures were there. But it all depends on what you understand by the word see and with which eyes you see it.

D&C 110: 1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened. 2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork ...

Edited October 2, 2024 by Frank11

[InCognitus]

55 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

Yes, Joseph Smith and Oliver Codery had a great vision in the Kirtland Temple and a lot of prominent biblical figures were there. But it all depends on what you understand by the word see and with which eyes you see it.

D&C 110: 1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened. 2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork ...

And your point is what, exactly?

[Frank11]

4 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

And your point is what, exactly?

They only saw things spiritually, not naturally.

[InCognitus]

You say:

3 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

They only saw things spiritually, not naturally.

But I wrote the following:

2 hours ago, InCognitus said:

The big difference between your story above and the early events of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that it wasn't just one person saying they saw a supernatural being.  Oliver Cowdery participated in the visitation of John the Baptist, Moroni, Jesus, Moses, Elias and Elijah (at a minimum).  Sidney Rigdon was with Joseph Smith for a vision in which Jesus appeared.  There were other witnesses who backed up the events that transpired as well.

Why does what you said above matter to the point I was making?  (It doesn't).  It makes no difference to my point if they saw those things "spiritually" or "naturally" (although that point could definitely be argued in some cases as well).

[Pyreaux]

13 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

They only saw things spiritually, not naturally.

Therefore, when they saw it simultaneously... They what? Didn't see it? It doesn't count?

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Can I get one?  I can’t watch anything after the first three (produced) without having fits.

Yes, definitely.

[Frank11]

10 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Why does what you said above matter to the point I was making?  (It doesn't).  It makes no difference to my point if they saw those things "spiritually" or "naturally" (although that point could definitely be argued in some cases as well).

9 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Therefore, when they saw it simultaneously... They what? Didn't see it? It doesn't count?

If that makes no difference to you, that's ok.
For me, it makes a big difference because then someone can take on the leadership role, probably Joseph. Then Joseph says, for example, “see Oliver, Moses appears, etc.” 
There is a reason why witnesses are questioned separately, because they can unconsciously influence each other in things that they really saw. 

Edited October 3, 2024 by Frank11

[Bernard Gui]

23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, times were undoubtedly very rough for the *checks notes* ultra-wealthy of Utah.

Hmmm. I prefer and trust Jesse’s assessment of Brigham more than yours. 
 

“God's kingdom. Such a strange place really, so indicative of the man and his time. A place where everyone works, both men and women, where children continually improve themselves, where every new wonder of technology is harnessed for the poor, where all men strive to be their own best, where above all else men cherish and love their children who alone can make the bright dream come true. Brigham thinks even more about the children now, for he is troubled with rheumatism; he suffers from fierce stomach pains, and the harassment of the lawyers is more painful than it was. He wearies of seeing his name slain, his children hurt, his intentions misunderstood. Sometimes these days Brigham has the blues. But then he remembers the Kingdom—the homes without tears, a land of peace where the wheat heads out every year under the August sun, where the rains come just before the streams go dry. Honor and integrity, courtesy, alertness, curiosity, striving, striving, wonderment and work and the glory of the Kingdom to give it all meaning. Those are the things, said Brigham to his boys, that you must learn from me. When a man's sons know these things he can die without bitterness; when a man's sons know these things he can sleep peacefully in the valley, lying in the shadow of the Kingdom. When a man says these things to his sons, says them from the heart and the bone and the mind, how can his letters be other than beautiful and strong? And that is what these letters are. Sleep well, Brother Brigham. You left more sons and daughters than the children of your flesh. They hear you now. They understand….”

“…Confronted with chiding and ridicule from friends and enemies alike, who doubted Brigham's ability to even know all of his children, let alone properly care for and instruct them, President Young nevertheless succeeded in providing for their physical, emotional, and spiritual needs in a manner that is both exemplary and profound. He brought a degree of wisdom and understanding to the task of family management that contributed to a positive relationship with his children and remarkably influenced their attitudes and accomplishments in life. Several factors contributed to this, not the least of which was a paternal love and kindness, balanced with firmness and justice. One of Brigham Young's daughters recalled that "home was as beautiful to me as love and happiness could make it." To his children, no other fact of their father's life was so plain a proof of his greatness as "his life at home and the influence which he radiated there." His daughter Clarissa Young Spencer, who fondly remembered her childhood as "one long round of happiness," wrote that her father "had the tenderness of a woman for his family and friends." Susa Young Gates related that although there were the usual squabbles among the children, "we were not a contentious family." Nor did the size of the family preclude a spirit of companionship and esteem between its individual members. Susa concluded that hers "was an ideal father, kind to a fault, tender, thoughtful, just and firm. . . . None of us feared him." The kindness that characterized Brigham's relationship with his children included a firmness "that neither humiliated the child nor lowered his own self-respect." Discipline was mainly an educational process of example and precept: "It is not by the whip or the rod that we can make obedient children," he stated, "but it is by faith and by prayer, and by setting a good example before them." 4 The few instances of Brigham Young applying the "rod" to his children must be regarded within this framework. If children knew the feelings of their parents when they did good or evil, "it would have a salutary influence upon their lives; but no child can possibly know this, until it becomes a parent. I am compassionate therefore towards children." Governing a home by violence and dictatorship was contrary to Brigham Young's convictions.”

 

He was determined to set the proper example for his large family and the Church members.

Edited October 3, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Dario_M]

It's strange that prophets like Joseph Smith and Bringham Young always had so many enemies. They try to do their best they could and people have given them such a hard time for doing that. Spitting on the LDS church. With so much anger. Sometimes i have a difficult time understanding why those things happen when i read those old stories from the past. 

Edited October 3, 2024 by Dario_M

[Frank11]

54 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

It's strange that prophets like Joseph Smith and Bringham Young always had so many enemies. They try to do the best the could and people have given them such a hard time for doing that. Spitting on the LDS church. With so much anger. Sometimes i have a difficult time understanding why those things happen when i read those old stories from the past. 

This is perhaps due to the other stories that are not well received in the Christian world. Apart from the fact that Brigham Young had over 50 wives, he considered Jesus Christ's ability to fulfil the atonement for all sins to be limited. The understanding of Christian love of neighbour also seems to have been different.

Brigham Young - February 8, 1857 sermon

"Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved... and suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, 'shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?'

"All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers and sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant....

"I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance... if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the Devil... I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them....

"This is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it....if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. That is the way to love mankind."

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Hmmm. I prefer and trust Jesse’s assessment of Brigham more than yours. 

Oh NO!!!!!!!!!

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

It's strange that prophets like Joseph Smith and Bringham Young always had so many enemies. They try to do their best they could and people have given them such a hard time for doing that. Spitting on the LDS church. With so much anger. Sometimes i have a difficult time understanding why those things happen when i read those old stories from the past. 

They were seen as a threat. Their tenets and beliefs put them outside the mainstream. They suffered the same way the Jews regularly have for millenia now and for similar reasons: They will corrupt or murder our children. They will destabilize and destroy society. God despises them and we much punish them.

You are part of a group that faces the same kind of irrational hatred in much of the world.

[Dario_M]

Just now, The Nehor said:

They were seen as a threat. Their tenets and beliefs put them outside the mainstream.

The LDS community always had a problem with that image. 

Just now, The Nehor said:

They suffered the same way the Jews regularly have for millenia now and for similar reasons: They will corrupt or murder our children. They will destabilize and destroy society. God despises them and we much punish them.

Yeah horible. It really scares me a bit how dangerous and crazy groups of people can act.

Just now, The Nehor said:

You are part of a group that faces the same kind of irrational hatred in much of the world.

Yeah the LDS community doesn't has the best image. And bevore i was a Mormon and didn't knew anything about the LDS church i also had that negative idea about the LDS church. And why was that? Because of the media. But then i met super nice people from the LDS church and i realized that those ideas were just not right. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

The LDS community always had a problem with that image.

It is not just an image. The strange and foreign seems threatening.

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Yeah horible. It really scares me a bit how dangerous and crazy groups of people can act.

It is often projection. They do to others because they are convinced the others would do it to them given a chance.

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Yeah the LDS community doesn't has the best image. And bevore i was a Mormon and didn't knew anything about the LDS church i also had that negative idea about the LDS church. And why was that? Because of the media. But then i met super nice people from the LDS church and i realized that those ideas were just not right. 

I meant that you are gay.

[Dario_M]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is not just an image. The strange and foreign seems threatening.

 

Yeah they feel threatened but that is a misplaced feeling. The church haven't done anything to them. Not in the past, and also not right now. 

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is often projection. They do to others because they are convinced the others would do it to them given a chance.

They are convinced about it yeah. But are those feelings in line with the reality? 

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I meant that you are gay.

I don't really experienced that so much anymore. Only in the past when i was on school i got bullied a lot for my orientation. But that's 18 years ago. It seems to get less. The only hate i still recieve sometimes is from a straight men online, and they are clearly homophobic. But for the rest i don't get so much hate anymore. 

Edited October 4, 2024 by Dario_M

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

But for the rest i don't so much hate anymore. 

That is good to hear.