Church members who leave the church

[Calm]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

And it doesn't seem like the church needs to spend billions of dollars every month.

Nowadays most of it is free online…the cost of paper and ink to print it up.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Gabriel said:

apart from those mentioned above the Church said they’d “acquired another forty-eight documents directly from Mark W. Hofmann for a total cash purchase price of $57,100, and forty-one others, less valuable, by donation or trade.”

Documentation please and not just stating as fact that the Church purchased the bolded part.  I have seen other explanations of how the Church got these, so would like to see your evidence the Church was the one who paid for them.

For example, the Salamander Letter was purchased by Steve Christiansen who then donated it to the Church.  wiki is the easiest source for this since you aren’t responding to my links from FAIR.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salamander_letter#:~:text=Hofmann finally sold the letter,contents of the salamander letter.

Quote

 

The letter was initially offered to Don Schmidt of the LDS Church Historical Department on January 3, 1984, by Lyn Jacobs, who wanted to trade it for a $10 Mormon gold piece. Jacobs told Schmidt that he got the letter from a collector in the east, referred by Mark Hofmann. Jacobs later changed his offer to a trade for a copy of a Book of Commandments. This offer was also rejected. Jacobs also suggested that Brent Ashworth might have an interest in it, although Hofmann had already showed a transcript of it to him and he had declared it to be fake.^{[citation needed]} The contents of the letter also seemed too similar to Howe's Mormonism Unvailed to others in the LDS Church's Historical Department. The letter was also offered to other interested parties, including Jerald and Sandra Tanner, prominent critics of Mormonism. Although the letter's authenticity would have bolstered the Tanners' claims against the church, they expressed doubts as to its authenticity.^[7] A deal with the LDS Church was never reached. Hofmann finally sold the letter to Steven F. Christensen on January 6, 1984, for $40,000. Christensen wanted to try to authenticate it and then donate it to the LDS Church ^{[citation needed]}.

A member purchasing it and giving it to the Church is not the Church purchasing it.

You don’t need support the quoted part since I already provided the link above.

Edited October 11, 2024 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

LDS, friends. Isn’t Dario living contrary to your church’s teaching? Gay and with a boyfriend, yet has a temple recommend? I’ve seen some of you say that it’s leader roulette… so does that mean being in a same sex relationship is ok depending on the local bishop? I’m curious why you’re tip toeing around this. Why don’t you tell him your teachings about being in an active same sex relationship? It’s not different in the Netherlands, right?

[Calm]

As far as the McLellin collection, not all of it was owned by the Church.

https://www.deseret.com/2009/1/22/20297848/mclellin-journal-finally-is-located/

[Malc]

14 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

LDS, friends. Isn’t Dario living contrary to your church’s teaching? Gay and with a boyfriend, yet has a temple recommend? I’ve seen some of you say that it’s leader roulette… so does that mean being in a same sex relationship is ok depending on the local bishop? I’m curious why you’re tip toeing around this. Why don’t you tell him your teachings about being in an active same sex relationship? It’s not different in the Netherlands, right?

In my experience, yes, as far as church penalties go, it very much does depend on the local bishop.

I think that Dario is (in spite of being a fairly new member) quite aware that he is fortunate that his bishop does not take action against him, because another bishop, in another place, might well do so.

For me (as an inactive and non-believing member), I think that what you are seeing as tiptoeing around is simply people accepting the situation as it is, being grateful that Dario is (at least, for the moment) in a good situation wrt. the church, and not wanting to beat him over the head with his living contrary to church teachings.

btw, I never see your name without thinking of "Domine Deus, Miserere Nobis" from Vivaldi's "Gloria". The beauty of the cello part sometimes brings tears to my eyes.

[MiserereNobis]

11 minutes ago, Malc said:

In my experience, yes, as far as church penalties go, it very much does depend on the local bishop.

With something as serious, from the LDS perspective, as same sex relationships? Not giving a penalty is passive. Giving a temple recommend is active  

11 minutes ago, Malc said:

I think that Dario is (in spite of being a fairly new member) quite aware that he is fortunate that his bishop does not take action against him, because another bishop, in another place, might well do so.

Again, passive vs active. 

11 minutes ago, Malc said:

For me (as an inactive and non-believing member), I think that what you are seeing as tiptoeing around is simply people accepting the situation as it is, being grateful that Dario is (at least, for the moment) in a good situation wrt. the church, and not wanting to beat him over the head with his living contrary to church teachings.

He’s talking about Utah and Provo and how he’d be accepted there. I imagine he wouldn’t get a temple recommend while having a same sex boyfriend, right? Why isn’t anyone telling him this?

11 minutes ago, Malc said:

btw, I never see your name without thinking of "Domine Deus, Miserere Nobis" from Vivaldi's "Gloria". The beauty of the cello part sometimes brings tears to my eyes.

The good, the true, the beautiful: pillars of human joy 😊

[Rain]

34 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

With something as serious, from the LDS perspective, as same sex relationships? Not giving a penalty is passive. Giving a temple recommend is active  

I agree. I've never heard anyone in a same sex relationship get a temple recommend before Dario. I do know 2 people who drink coffee and have a reccomend.  There may be others I don't know in a same sex relationship that have one and I just don't know about it, but it would be far from common. 

34 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Again, passive vs active. 

He’s talking about Utah and Provo and how he’d be accepted there. I imagine he wouldn’t get a temple recommend while having a same sex boyfriend, right? Why isn’t anyone telling him this?

It would be highly unlikely. I think people have been trying to tell him, but trying to cushion it since he is a new member with limited understanding, language differences, etc. It may be best just to be clear and simple about it, but I'm not sure he would believe it especially since  it seems his local leadership is going against what the rest of the world does.

I've been curious how @jana at jade house would see it as she lives in the Netherlands, but she hasn't been to the board in some time.

34 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

The good, the true, the beautiful: pillars of human joy 😊

 

Edited October 11, 2024 by Rain

[Calm]

41 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

He’s talking about Utah and Provo and how he’d be accepted there

Being accepted socially as part of a faith community does not always mean full privileges will be given.  I also thought we were sharing acceptance could vary quite a bit.

41 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

. I imagine he wouldn’t get a temple recommend while having a same sex boyfriend, right? Why isn’t anyone telling him this?

I thought we had that discussion back when he first joined. 

For me, I will always be encouraging him to be open and honest with his leaders.  He knows the chastity standards of the Church, obviously disagrees with them, so I have been assuming he also knows the consequences of full openness.  I hope, if he hasn’t already, he will someday get to a position where the benefits for him to be fully open will outweigh the costs.  Until then, I hope the support our community can give him will be enough even if it can only go so far.

And if he has been fully open with his bishop and his stake president in the temple recommend interviews (though now I am thinking of it , I don’t believe the stake president’s signature is needed for a baptism only recommend) and has still received a recommend, that is quite surprising but between him and his bishop and his bishop’s leaders.

Just in case it wasn’t clear, as much as I wish I could, I am not encouraging him to use the temple recommend he currently has to go do baptisms for the dead.  While I would applaud his desire to be a part of that sacred ordinance, I see a conflict with his choice to live with his boyfriend.  This does not mean I view his relationship as a negative or wrong for him in the here and now, but sometimes one has to choose between good choices for ourselves based on our current needs.

As an aside, I don’t understand why same sex relationships are considered sinful, whether it’s cultural or if such relationships disconnect us from God in some way or if they just go down a different path than exaltation.  Or something else. 

 I do believe that being able to progress to exaltation requires being able to have both male and female qualities in the relationship that gives us access to exaltation (though of course it is God’s willingness to bring us there that grants us exaltation).  This is a faith position for me, so it’s understandable to me that others don’t see the need for both male and female in the ultimate intimate formation of humanity or perhaps they see it as being able to be achieved through a different, more global communal relationship that’s not marriage.

Edited October 11, 2024 by Calm

[Malc]

10 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

With something as serious, from the LDS perspective, as same sex relationships? Not giving a penalty is passive. Giving a temple recommend is active  

Again, passive vs active. 

He’s talking about Utah and Provo and how he’d be accepted there. I imagine he wouldn’t get a temple recommend while having a same sex boyfriend, right? Why isn’t anyone telling him this?

The good, the true, the beautiful: pillars of human joy 😊

I don't disagree with you, mostly, but I thought that Dario was well enough aware by now that things would almost certainly be quite different In Utah. 

I know someone in a stake in North America who went to their bishop to surrender their temple recommend due to not being able to continue to sustain the General Authorities. The bishop told them to hold on to it. I realize that this is a different situation, but if I had had that to deal with as a branch president I would not have been so soft - far from it! 

Bishops have a lot of leeway. 

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

thought we had that discussion back when he first joined. 

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/74979-i-have-become-a-mormon-3-weeks-ago/

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

LDS, friends. Isn’t Dario living contrary to your church’s teaching? Gay and with a boyfriend, yet has a temple recommend? I’ve seen some of you say that it’s leader roulette… so does that mean being in a same sex relationship is ok depending on the local bishop? I’m curious why you’re tip toeing around this. Why don’t you tell him your teachings about being in an active same sex relationship? It’s not different in the Netherlands, right?

I am very surprised and I suspect there is something more going on there.

[Dario_M]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Dario, here is some info on this:

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Brigham_Young_and_Adam-God_theory

Aaawh thank you very much. I'm gonna dig into it. 

Edit, to me this feels like gossip media. 

Edited October 11, 2024 by Dario_M

[Dario_M]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am very surprised and I suspect there is something more going on there.

What do you mean with that?

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

LDS, friends. Isn’t Dario living contrary to your church’s teaching? Gay and with a boyfriend, yet has a temple recommend? I’ve seen some of you say that it’s leader roulette… so does that mean being in a same sex relationship is ok depending on the local bishop? I’m curious why you’re tip toeing around this. Why don’t you tell him your teachings about being in an active same sex relationship? It’s not different in the Netherlands, right?

What are my church leaders supposed to do then? They just don't care. It's the Netherlands here and people just don't care what you do with your life...and since my stake president is also Dutch he has that same mentality. And i love that because it gives me the freedom to be who i am. If you don't like that you can call them how wrong i am for being together with another man and that they sould do something about that. I'm active in the ward in Alkmaar. And tell them that they need to tap me on the fingers and take my temple recommend away from me. Something is telling me that they will hang up the phone to be honest. 

My life is allready difficult enough. My boyfriend is a blessing. Without him i would be completaly alone in the world. That my stake president and my bishop don't make a fuss about that is another blessing. 

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

With something as serious, from the LDS perspective, as same sex relationships? Not giving a penalty is passive. Giving a temple recommend is active  

Again, passive vs active. 

He’s talking about Utah and Provo and how he’d be accepted there. I imagine he wouldn’t get a temple recommend while having a same sex boyfriend, right? Why isn’t anyone telling him this?

The good, the true, the beautiful: pillars of human joy 😊

You are not even from the LDS community. Why do you worrie? 

[Dario_M]

2 hours ago, Malc said:

I don't disagree with you, mostly, but I thought that Dario was well enough aware by now that things would almost certainly be quite different In Utah. 

I know someone in a stake in North America who went to their bishop to surrender their temple recommend due to not being able to continue to sustain the General Authorities. The bishop told them to hold on to it. I realize that this is a different situation, but if I had had that to deal with as a branch president I would not have been so soft - far from it! 

Bishops have a lot of leeway. 

Edit..thank you for your upvote though. 🩵

Edited October 11, 2024 by Dario_M

[Frank11]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

LDS, friends. Isn’t Dario living contrary to your church’s teaching? Gay and with a boyfriend, yet has a temple recommend? I’ve seen some of you say that it’s leader roulette… so does that mean being in a same sex relationship is ok depending on the local bishop? I’m curious why you’re tip toeing around this. Why don’t you tell him your teachings about being in an active same sex relationship? It’s not different in the Netherlands, right?

As a consequence of Elder Bednar's well-known statement, it cannot possibly be contrary to church guidelines, whether in the Netherlands, Portugal or Utah.

Then missionaries would also not be allowed to live together.

As long as no sex is involved, it can't be a problem. And if sex is involved, then it doesn't matter whether you live together or not, gay or straight.

Edited October 11, 2024 by Frank11

[Malc]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

But you are not a bishop. You're not even in the church anymore. I don't understand your worries about my temple recommend. 

I'm not a bishop, but I am still a member. Not that it would make a difference if I were not a member. 

It's a discussion, an exchange of ideas, experiences, beliefs, etc., including hypothetical situations. MiserereNobis and I would probably have almost the same points to make if you didn't exist and we were discussing a "what if" type of question. Please don't think of it as a personal attack. 

Also, I'm sure that MiserereNobis is not trying to cause trouble for you, or planning to call your leaders to ask them to take your recommend away, but is simply trying to understand why your leaders are not doing what they might be expected to do. 

The way I feel about the church rules now, and about members in situations like yours, it doesn't bother me in any way that you have a temple recommend. 

[Dario_M]

13 minutes ago, Malc said:

I'm not a bishop, but I am still a member. Not that it would make a difference if I were not a member. 

Huh, how do you still have that quote?? I've changed that post an hour ago. 

13 minutes ago, Malc said:

It's a discussion, an exchange of ideas, experiences, beliefs, etc., including hypothetical situations. MiserereNobis and I would probably have almost the same points to make if you didn't exist and we were discussing a "what if" type of question. Please don't think of it as a personal attack. 

Okay i will not than. 

13 minutes ago, Malc said:

Also, I'm sure that MiserereNobis is not trying to cause trouble for you, or planning to call your leaders to ask them to take your recommend away, but is simply trying to understand why your leaders are not doing what they might be expected to do. 

Yeah. I've explaint that to her in my comment to her. So i hope she would understand. 

13 minutes ago, Malc said:

The way I feel about the church rules now, and about members in situations like yours, it doesn't bother me in any way that you have a temple recommend. 

Thanks. 🩵

[Calm]

9 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Yeah. I've explaint that to her in my comment to her. So i hope she would understand. 

He is a him.    He is Catholic, thus the picture of Mary, Lady of Sorrows.

Edited October 11, 2024 by Calm

[Dario_M]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

He is a him.    He is Catholic, thus the picture of Mary, Lady of Sorrows.

Oh really. My bad i thought a woman because of the avatar hahaha. 🤣

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Dario_M said:

Oh really. My bad i thought a woman because of the avatar hahaha. 🤣

It used to be easier to tell because sex/gender was listed under the picture, but now you have to go to their profile if they don’t mention it…assuming they don’t choose “not telling” like I did.   

[MiserereNobis]

12 hours ago, Dario_M said:

What are my church leaders supposed to do then? They just don't care. It's the Netherlands here and people just don't care what you do with your life...and since my stake president is also Dutch he has that same mentality. And i love that because it gives me the freedom to be who i am.

It's just surprising to me (and appears like to others here, too). As far as I understand, the LDS has very strict rules surrounding sexuality, and living with a boyfriend or girlfriend is against those rules, so your church leaders are going against their own church rules.

This phenomena is nothing new in Catholicism, partly because of our size. There are rogue bishops and priests both liberal and conservative, but mainly on the liberal side of things, that go against Catholic teachings and canon law.

 

12 hours ago, Dario_M said:

If you don't like that you can call them how wrong i am for being together with another man and that they sould do something about that. I'm active in the ward in Alkmaar. And tell them that they need to tap me on the fingers and take my temple recommend away from me. Something is telling me that they will hang up the phone to be honest. 

I'm not that invested, lol. Mainly surprised and a little intrigued that you were getting what seemed like a pass from the people on this board. There have been MANY discussions of same-sex issues here.

 

11 hours ago, Dario_M said:

You are not even from the LDS community. Why do you worrie? 

I don't worry. And while it's true that I'm not LDS, I have been on this board for something like 12 years, so I know the posters here, I know the general flow of ideas and topics, and I have learned a lot about LDS. And since this is a discussion board, it's perfectly acceptable for me to express my views.

[MiserereNobis]

4 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Oh really. My bad i thought a woman because of the avatar hahaha. 🤣

No problem! My avatar is the Blessed Virgin Mary. I am quite devoted to Her  

[MiserereNobis]

9 hours ago, Malc said:

It's a discussion, an exchange of ideas, experiences, beliefs, etc., including hypothetical situations. MiserereNobis and I would probably have almost the same points to make if you didn't exist and we were discussing a "what if" type of question. Please don't think of it as a personal attack. 

Also, I'm sure that MiserereNobis is not trying to cause trouble for you, or planning to call your leaders to ask them to take your recommend away, but is simply trying to understand why your leaders are not doing what they might be expected to do. 

Yes, this. Given the huge number of threads and discussions on same-sex relationships, it was confusing. Sounds like he's got rogue leaders, like what happens sometimes in Catholicism.

Edited October 11, 2024 by MiserereNobis