Church members who leave the church

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

How could this not be the case for finite individuals with finite time and attention?

A common sentiment in the poly community. Love is unlimited. The time and resources to express that love are limited.

[The Nehor]

37 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with polygamy. If people wanna practise polygamy then that's up to them. And within our church there is still a group who practise that. 🤵‍♂️👰‍♂️👰‍♀️👰👰‍♀️👰‍♂️

Those are break off faiths.

Knowingly practicing plural marriage in the Church is automatic excommunication. The only other sin requiring automatic excommunication is murder. Some other sins almost always require excommunication but those are the two where it is automatic.

[Dario_M]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Those are break off faiths.

Knowingly practicing plural marriage in the Church is automatic excommunication. The only other sin requiring automatic excommunication is murder. Some other sins almost always require excommunication but those are the two where it is automatic.

But sinds when goes an excommunication automatic? Are there not people involved in that situation....to make the decision? 

Edited September 30, 2024 by Dario_M

[Damien the Leper]

On 9/25/2024 at 10:11 PM, The Nehor said:

No, I find the loving God commandment to be the hardest.

My bad. Thank you for clarifying. I can empathize with your sentiment.

[Dario_M]

Loving God is for me the easiest commandment. 

Edited September 30, 2024 by Dario_M

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/28/2024 at 1:36 PM, Malc said:

Also the "lost boys" issue, in which teenage boys who would naturally be starting to look for mates are cast out of the community. That seems to me to be an almost inevitable situation.

Did that happen  in the LDS polygamous communities?

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/28/2024 at 2:06 PM, The Nehor said:

Monogamy is the worst form of relationship, except for all of the others that have been tried.

If we had some ham we could have ham and eggs, but we don't have any eggs.

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/28/2024 at 2:23 PM, The Nehor said:

Prostitution was big business in Salt Lake City in the 1800s despite polygamy. The pioneers arrived in 1847. Prostitution was well-established by the mid 1850s.

I am not sure what effect monogamy would have had on this.

From the same article you quoted (needs attribution)...

Quote

Who were the affluent, high-society gentlemen that patronized Salt Lake’s most expensive prostitutes in those early years? We can only wonder.

Who, indeed? Or we can leave that choice bit of innuendo hanging in the air. The author mentions Salt Lake City Mayor John S. Brantford as the leader who constructed "The Stockade" as a place to gather up all the prostitution trade so it could be controlled and regulated better. The uninformed reader might think he was a Mormon. After all, he was elected mayor in a Mormon city.

What the article doesn't mention...

Quote

Bransford moved to Salt Lake City in 1899 and remained there permanently. In 1900, Bransford was elected the president of the Salt Lake Stock and Mining Exchange. In 1904, he joined Utah's anti-Mormon American Party [" The party attracted a variety of non-Mormon, lapsed Mormon, and ex-Republican politicians and was endorsed by the Salt Lake Tribune], but remained a member of the Democratic Party... After Bransford left office, the American Party collapsed. He was a delegate from Utah to the 1912 Democratic National Convention and was a member of the Platform and Rules Committee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_S._Bransford

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Party_(Utah)

Always the Democrats and endorsed by the Salt Lake Tribune. What's with their perpetual fascination with dissing the Mormons? 😜 

Edited September 30, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/28/2024 at 3:35 PM, Frank11 said:

I once read an interview with a Muslim African woman who lives in a polygamy. She said, I have an apartment, enough food for myself and my children and I can also provide for my parents. That's more important to me than a romantic relationship with a poor man who will later cheat anyway. 

Of course, polygamy is justified in a culture of poverty, but I find it questionable in a culture of prosperity.

Jacob 2 has nothing to do with poverty or prosperity.

[Bernard Gui]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Do you?

I would be hard pressed to give their full names. Birthdates? No way. I have a wretched memory for names and dates. Imagine me trying to keep track of 250 students in my school orchestra program.  It's been a source of great embarrassment for me for decades, and much, much worse as I get older.

[Malc]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Did that happen  in the LDS polygamous communities?

Not that I'm aware of - sorry, I should have been more specific.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Did that happen  in the LDS polygamous communities?

In the FLDS it did.

[Dario_M]

I hate the FLDS. That's absolutely not our church. 

Edited September 30, 2024 by Dario_M

[The Nehor]

14 hours ago, Dario_M said:

But sinds when goes an excommunication automatic? Are there not people involved in that situation....to make the decision? 

There are people there but some things are listed in the Handbook that if they happened excommunication is automatic.

[Dario_M]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There are people there but some things are listed in the Handbook that if they happened excommunication is automatic.

Woow i didn't know that. I'm happy that being gay and having a bf is not one of those things on the list and the handbook of automatic excommunication. 

[california boy]

8 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Woow i didn't know that. I'm happy that being gay and having a bf is not one of those things on the list and the handbook of automatic excommunication. 

Well actually it can get you excommunicated.  I got excommunicated because I refused to promise that I would never have a male partner and be in a relationship with him.  It is kinda leadership roulette what happens.

What leadership role you might have and how active you are is a factor in how it is handled.

Edited September 30, 2024 by california boy

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

From the same article you quoted (needs attribution)...

Who, indeed? Or we can leave that choice bit of innuendo hanging in the air. The author mentions Salt Lake City Mayor John S. Brantford as the leader who constructed "The Stockade" as a place to gather up all the prostitution trade so it could be controlled and regulated better. The uninformed reader might think he was a Mormon. After all, he was elected mayor in a Mormon city.

What the article doesn't mention...

Always the Democrats and endorsed by the Salt Lake Tribune. What's with their perpetual fascination with dissing the Mormons? 😜 

I wasn’t focusing on the stockade. i was focusing on how quickly prostitution was established.

Also not really a Democrat. He was previously but joined the short-lived American party which was mostly made up of ex-Mormons and anti-polygamists.

Also a quiet lol that Republicans weren’t also dissing Mormons. Calling polygamy one of the “twin relics of barbarism” ring a bell? Once Utah abandoned the pro-Mormon People’s Party membership in the church was pretty evenly split between Republicans and Democrats until the 1980s. This guy joined the “we hate Mormons and plural marriage is definitely still happening secretly” third party. Two mayors from this party were elected in the early 1900s. One was an ex-Republican and the other an ex-Democrat (this guy). Turns out anti-Mormonism is a bipartisan thing. It is nice to remember back to the good old days when bipartisanship agreements on some issues could be reached……wait, what did they agree on again?

As to the Tribune…..yeah, pretty accurate.

[The Nehor]

30 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Woow i didn't know that. I'm happy that being gay and having a bf is not one of those things on the list and the handbook of automatic excommunication. 

It is not. It is included on the list for things that may require a membership council. Here is part of the list of situations that may require a membership council:

• Adultery, fornication, same-sex relations, and all other sexual relations outside of a legal marriage between a man and a woman, including sexual encounters online or over the phone
• Cohabitation, civil unions and partnerships, and same-sex marriage

It may happen. I have seen it happen. I have no idea what the circumstances are where you are though.

[LoudmouthMormon]

On 9/28/2024 at 12:23 PM, The Nehor said:

Prostitution was big business in Salt Lake City in the 1800s despite polygamy. The pioneers arrived in 1847. Prostitution was well-established by the mid 1850s.

I am not sure what effect monogamy would have had on this.

Well, keep some things in mind.  It is true that just about all the government and permanent migration to Utah was the saints.  But the Cali gold rush was entering it's fever-pitch heyday in the early 1850's, and SLC was a growing stop on the route west for folks looking to get rich.  There was absolutely a large industry that sprung up to serve (and take money from) the people just passing through.   People pulled $10 mil out of the California ground in 1849, $41m in 1850, $81m in 1951.  Then a slow levelling-off for the rest of the decade.  

Utterly fascinating: https://historytogo.utah.gov/sl-cutoff-california-trail/

 

Closely related tangent: I just got back from visiting Cripple Creek Colorado, which had its own gold boom 50 years after the Cali fever went down.  In it's heyday, apparently there were over a dozen "legitimate" brothels on the main drag, spanning 5 blocks.  Prostitution was never legal in Colorado, and yet somehow the govt managed to tax the trade pretty well.  The working girls were listed as “tenants” or “boarders”, who just happened to be required to go to the doctor once a month, where if they got a clean bill of health, they took their certificates to city hall, and they paid a “fine”.  It wasn’t legal so there was no licensing per se, but the govt could say “we fined her, she chose to stay.”    There was a city ordinance that states “The girls of Miner’s avenue are only allowed uptown to do their shopping Monday mornings between 8 and 11 AM”, (while all the good women and churchgoers were at home doing their chores), so the folks who lived there didn’t have to rub elbows with the “soiled doves”.  The lady who ran the most upscale joint in town died, and the people who turned out for the funeral exceeded the resident population of the entire county. 

Not a Mormon to be found anywhere in Cripple Creek back in those times, but I can see similar things happening in Utah, with the non-Saints running the businesses and hiding from, lying to, or maybe greasing the wheels of the local authorities who were all LDS.

Edited September 30, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Well, keep some things in mind.  It is true that just about all the government and permanent migration to Utah was the saints.  But the Cali gold rush was entering it's fever-pitch heyday in the early 1850's, and SLC was a growing stop on the route west for folks looking to get rich.  There was absolutely a large industry that sprung up to serve (and take money from) the people just passing through.   People pulled $10 mil out of the California ground in 1849, $41m in 1850, $81m in 1951.  Then a slow levelling-off for the rest of the decade.  

Utterly fascinating: https://historytogo.utah.gov/sl-cutoff-california-trail/

 

Closely related tangent: I just got back from visiting Cripple Creek Colorado, which had its own gold boom 50 years after the Cali fever went down.  In it's heyday, apparently there were over a dozen "legitimate" brothels on the main drag, spanning 5 blocks.  Prostitution was never legal in Colorado, and yet somehow the govt managed to tax the trade pretty well.  The working girls were listed as “tenants” or “boarders”, who just happened to be required to go to the doctor once a month, where if they got a clean bill of health, they took their certificates to city hall, and they paid a “fine”.  It wasn’t legal so there was no licensing per se, but the govt could say “we fined her, she chose to stay.”    There was a city ordinance that states “The girls of Miner’s avenue are only allowed uptown to do their shopping Monday mornings between 8 and 11 AM”, (while all the good women and churchgoers were at home doing their chores), so the folks who lived there didn’t have to rub elbows with the “soiled doves”.  The lady who ran the most upscale joint in town died, and the people who turned out for the funeral exceeded the resident population of the entire county. 

Not a Mormon to be found anywhere in Cripple Creek back in those times, but I can see similar things happening in Utah, with the non-Saints running the businesses and hiding from, lying to, or maybe greasing the wheels of the local authorities who were all LDS.

That is similar to what happened in Salt Lake.

https://utahstories.com/2022/11/salt-lakes-early-days-prostitution-in-utah/

Quote

 

The Pioneers arrived in 1847, and prostitution was already well-established in Salt Lake by the 1850s. Despite being illegal, city officials chose to regulate the illicit trade rather than eliminate it, which would have been nearly impossible by that time. 

 Considered a “necessary evil” by city officials, prostitution was controlled by laws that appealed to a predominantly middle-class morality while providing welcome revenue.

According to writer Megan van Frank, “By the 1870s, downtown’s Commercial Street [Modern-day Regent Street between 1st and 2nd South] was the center of Salt Lake’s ‘red-light’ district, with saloons and parlor houses that accommodated ‘female boarders.’ Police raided these establishments regularly to arrest these ‘female boarders.’ But eventually a registration system evolved whereby the madams who ran these brothels provided the police a list of the women who worked for them. Each woman then paid a monthly fine of $10, a tidy arrangement that bolstered the City’s coffers.” 

By 1896, at least six brothels, cribs, saloons, gambling houses and parlor houses dotted the city, leading to the idea of The Stockade.

 

I don’t buy that prostitution in Utah was mostly about servicing people passing through due to the gold rush. The gold rush ended in the mid 1850s yet prostitution continued to thrive. In 1869 the transcontinental railroad through Utah was completed so stopovers in Salt Lake were not an extended thing if they even happened at all.

Were Mormons involved? Yeah. This definitely was allowed even in times where virtually all local officials were LDS.

The idea that prostitution is inevitable is not a new thing. Augustine thought things would be worse without it. So did Aquinas. Augustine would know. He was an enthusiastic patron of prostitutes when young and went through multiple mistresses.

In the modern world we demonize sex workers more than those in the past did. They saw it as pretty shady. We treat sex workers as horrible threats that must be rescued. And by “rescued” we mean “punished”.

[LoudmouthMormon]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

In the modern world we demonize sex workers more than those in the past did. They saw it as pretty shady. We treat sex workers as horrible threats that must be rescued. And by “rescued” we mean “punished”.

I guess I might know someone you classify as "we", but most people I know who have opined on the subject aren't of that opinion at all.  I remember a large cultural shift in the mid-'90's as folks re-defined the issue.  Before the change, the working girls were the bad guy and their johns were innocent victims of police stings.  Then folks learned about how the game is played in the US, and the new perps were the pimps and traffickers, and the new victims were the workers, and people sort of stopped talking about the johns and wrote them out of their moral equations (and laws to a certain extent).  

There's a lot more education available for mass consumption on the issue than there was in the past, and I think more understanding.  I'm guessing maybe I'm just better at tuning out ignorant opinions than I used to be, so maybe things are more like you describe them.  But the numbers of people who know a thing or two seem to be growing.

Time for my periodic plug for everyone to read this article!   When they make me emperor of the mormons, it'll be required for everyone before they get the priesthood or join Relief Society.  https://www.5280.com/girls-next-door/

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I wasn’t focusing on the stockade. i was focusing on how quickly prostitution was established.

Because of polygamy, the question at hand? I don’t think so. 

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Also not really a Democrat. He was previously but joined the short-lived American party which was mostly made up of ex-Mormons and anti-polygamists.

Not really a Democrat? What is a real Democrat? Certainly not one who sits on the Democrat Convention Platform and Rules Committee. 😬 Remember this…?

“The party attracted a variety of non-Mormon, lapsed Mormon, and ex-Republican politicians and was endorsed by the Salt Lake Tribune], but remained a member of the Democratic Party... After Bransford left office, the American Party collapsed. He was a delegate from Utah to the 1912 Democratic National Convention and was a member of the Platform and Rules Committee.”

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Also a quiet lol that Republicans weren’t also dissing Mormons. Calling polygamy one of the “twin relics of barbarism” ring a bell? Once Utah abandoned the pro-Mormon People’s Party membership in the church was pretty evenly split between Republicans and Democrats until the 1980s. This guy joined the “we hate Mormons and plural marriage is definitely still happening secretly” third party. Two mayors from this party were elected in the early 1900s. One was an ex-Republican and the other an ex-Democrat (this guy). Turns out anti-Mormonism is a bipartisan thing. It is nice to remember back to the good old days when bipartisanship agreements on some issues could be reached……wait, what did they agree on again?

Certainly Anti-Mormonism was an all-partisan thing, but Branford took up with the Dems.

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

As to the Tribune…..yeah, pretty accurate.

Yeah. I used the present tense, but we’re not going political, right?

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/29/2024 at 6:23 PM, Calm said:

Even monogamous parents will likely have closer relationships to some children than others.  I don’t think it’s being said there are no close relationships, just that the percentage of close relationships among all the children are likely to drop the more children one has.

I was responding to this…”The father is only important to his many children as the head of the family and decision-maker, but a genuine father-son/daughter relationship is only possible in rare cases.”

Rare is closer to none than a few, some, or many. I don’t believe that claim. I offered as proof the documented relationship between Brigham and his sons. I have no reason to believe he did not have close relationships with his daughters, too.

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/29/2024 at 6:28 PM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

How could this not be the case for finite individuals with finite time and attention?

Works for Heavenly Father. We should not underestimate the power of parental love, even for multiple children. 

[Bernard Gui]

20 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with polygamy. If people wanna practise polygamy then that's up to them. And within our church there is still a group who practise that. 🤵‍♂️👰‍♂️👰‍♀️👰👰‍♀️👰‍♂️

Jacob 2 is our LDS standard. 

“27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

“28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

“29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

“30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.”