Sexual Sin and the FAIR Instagram Video on Alma 39

[Devobah]

It's late at night. It's a school day tomorrow. I'm tired and I'm cranky. So why did I choose to respond to a comment on an instagram video so late at night and get in a fight with some rando? Well it's because of one word: "toxic"

FAIR and ComeFollowMe on Instagram did a collaboration for Alma 39 and the beginning of Alma's talk with Corianton. The very infamous "sexual sin is next to murder" argument was brought up and the lovely sister who was making the video talked about reaching out to those that struggle with sexual sin, and how they should be treated with love and kindness. Like the addict I am, I went to the comments to check out the wars and rumors of wars.

One of the comments was simple: "What a toxic message and doctrine."

Normally I stay out of things like this and don't get involved.I don't know why this got under my skin. Could be a variety of things, but I think it's because I struggle with these things. God's grace and Christ's love are what are getting me through. It's a sensitive subject for me, 

I responded by saying that this chapter specifically talks about lustful actions outside of marriage. There are those who struggle with that, and if reaching out with love is toxic then I am toxic. I also made an uninformed comment about the side effects of, let's say, tenderizing the meat. And that did not go over well with this person. He basically said that I shouldn't be around children because I said that (among a few other things), which is ironic because I teach teenagers for a living. He also said I was unfamiliar with church doctrine. 

My thought process is this: Alma when talking about this is talking about a specific thing (i.e. lustful actions with another person) and makes no mention of anything else. He's not mentioning the actions of self stimulation, but is instead talking about sexual impropriety with another person. Our world has greatly changed in how we view these things. Compelling arguments to both sides having to do with consent of both parties involved and the bonds of marriage or any romantic relationship. 

I've since stated my case and apologized for any misunderstanding. This person will probably still respond again (this is a former member who is a self described "recovering Mormon") and will have much more to say to me.

God has asked us to control ourselves in many aspects. Nowadays some of those are deemed unhealthy by certain parties. It's just a greater evidence that those who believe in God and the scriptures will see things differently about the world than those who don't.

[Dario_M]

Oh my. That didn't sound like a nice conversation at all. I can understand your irritation though. I also struggle with those things. Especially the law of chastity.

So yeah ..that somebody is judging you about that isn't cool. 

[The Nehor]

In Alma 39 Alma seems more interested in Corianton forsaking the ministry and hindering the work and much less so in the sexual sin.

Hugh Nibley used to posit that the harlot Isabel was a kind of fertility cult ritual and not a locally famous prostitute that Corianton had to travel to. Were there really famous prostitutes that drew you to travel long distances instead of getting a local one?

Also Alma talks about following after those “wicked harlots”. Kind of a jerk move there Alma. Most sex workers throughout history don’t choose that life. It is often do that or starve. Kind of a bad showing from Alma punching down on those Jesus would break bread with. Now if they were cult fertility priestesses that might make more sense. Why is it harlots in the plural? Was this an ongoing problem Corianton had? Or were they a religious group? Also if Corianton had an ongoing problem with chasing after prostitutes why did Alma bring him along in the first place?

So was the horrific sin that was near to murder the prostitute, the abandoning the ministry, or being such a bad public example that he led other people to sin? If you don’t bring preconceptions about sexual morality into the chapter it is hard to tell. Also this is reformed Alma the Younger here. Did he consider his possible youthful fornication worse than when he went about deliberately trying to destroy God’s church? Really?

The idea that sexual sin is the worst thing is ever is a very modern thing.

[Benjamin Seeker]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

In Alma 39 Alma seems more interested in Corianton forsaking the ministry and hindering the work and much less so in the sexual sin.

Hugh Nibley used to posit that the harlot Isabel was a kind of fertility cult ritual and not a locally famous prostitute that Corianton had to travel to. Were there really famous prostitutes that drew you to travel long distances instead of getting a local one?

Also Alma talks about following after those “wicked harlots”. Kind of a jerk move there Alma. Most sex workers throughout history don’t choose that life. It is often do that or starve. Kind of a bad showing from Alma punching down on those Jesus would break bread with. Now if they were cult fertility priestesses that might make more sense. Why is it harlots in the plural? Was this an ongoing problem Corianton had? Or were they a religious group? Also if Corianton had an ongoing problem with chasing after prostitutes why did Alma bring him along in the first place?

So was the horrific sin that was near to murder the prostitute, the abandoning the ministry, or being such a bad public example that he led other people to sin? If you don’t bring preconceptions about sexual morality into the chapter it is hard to tell. Also this is reformed Alma the Younger here. Did he consider his possible youthful fornication worse than when he went about deliberately trying to destroy God’s church? Really?

The idea that sexual sin is the worst thing is ever is a very modern thing.

From a very different perspective, I wonder if Alma 39 reflects Joseph Smith dealing with his inner demons.

Edited August 12, 2024 by Benjamin Seeker

[Calm]

13 hours ago, Devobah said:

My thought process is this: Alma when talking about this is talking about a specific thing (i.e. lustful actions with another person) and makes no mention of anything else.

Yes and no..

A commentary by another FAIR volunteer, a version I think is more on target, at least in using that particular verse.

https://www.ldsscriptureteachings.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Michael-Ash-the-Sin-Next-to-Murder.pdf
 

Having pointed to that, I do think she has a good point (I just wouldn’t use that verse to justify it and wouldn’t frame sexual sins as inherently next to murder, they may get tied to spiritual death by being a stumbling block for others no matter how much we would hope people focus on God and not on us for their testimonies).  Some sexual sins are highly problematic, imo, in part because of what she said, the long term potential consequences; also, losing restraint in a relationship and engaging in inappropriate sexual behaviour makes an already emotionally complex activity too tangled up, imo, and it can damage a relationship we want to nurture, even when that cherished relationship is with the one who participates in sin with us.

Not all sexual sins merit the same level of concern, imo, though.  Some sexual behaviours currently viewed as sins I look more on as impulse control issues, potentially a problem if the person doesn’t learn self control, but if not harming others (I view the porn industry as destructive, so see porn as harmful for a variety of reasons), not something that counts as a serious sin, but one we should not just ignore either.

Edited August 12, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Devobah said:

FAIR and ComeFollowMe on Instagram did a collaboration for Alma 39 and the beginning of Alma's talk with Corianton. The very infamous "sexual sin is next to murder" argument was brought up and the lovely sister who was making the video talked about reaching out to those that struggle with sexual sin, and how they should be treated with love and kindness.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/431691275847499

I don’t know if it’s longer than this, this is the version I saw

Edited August 12, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The idea that sexual sin is the worst thing is ever is a very modern thing.

I think it much more likely the murder of testimony…spiritual death compared to physical death.

Edited August 12, 2024 by Calm

[Devobah]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

https://www.facebook.com/reel/431691275847499

I don’t know if it’s longer than this, this is the version I saw

Yep. That’s the one. Instagram has a different set of comments though

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I think it much more likely the murder of testimony…spiritual death compared to physical death.

I think that's likely a more accurate representation of what he is saying. If you look at his comments to his son Helaman just a few chapters prior, he said, "For I went about with the sons of Mosiah, seeking to destroy the church of God; [...] Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction[.]"

 

[rpn]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The idea that sexual sin is the worst thing is ever is a very modern thing.

It (sexual relations outside of marriage)  is the one sin that has the potential to upend God's plans for each of us to be born to a married mother and father who love and stay together, and avoid killing babies, shortcutting their earthly experiences potentially (we don't know when one spirit gets permanently connected to a mortal body) ---- the standard that gives anyone the best chance for the becoming everything we seek to become because of our discipleship.   

I don't think that is "a modern thing". 

[mbh26]

Sexual sin is offensive to the spirit of God.  Those who aren't able to acheive self mastery in that way will not get past the Telestial kingdom.  We all have weaknesses that we need the Lord Jesus's help with to overcome.  But when we say that we know better than God what is right or wrong, that's rebellion and God can't work with that.  

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

shortcutting their earthly experiences potentially

Can you elaborate on this? What happens to a person who "[shortcuts] their earthly experience"?

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Can you elaborate on this? What happens to a person who "[shortcuts] their earthly experience"?

Isn’t it perfectly obvious? He simply saying that if the life of an unborn baby is cut short by abortion that the child will no longer continue to have earthly experiences. If he had used the expression “cutting short” rather than “shortcutting” his meaning would have been more clear.

[teddyaware]

10 hours ago, Devobah said:

It's late at night. It's a school day tomorrow. I'm tired and I'm cranky. So why did I choose to respond to a comment on an instagram video so late at night and get in a fight with some rando? Well it's because of one word: "toxic"

FAIR and ComeFollowMe on Instagram did a collaboration for Alma 39 and the beginning of Alma's talk with Corianton. The very infamous "sexual sin is next to murder" argument was brought up and the lovely sister who was making the video talked about reaching out to those that struggle with sexual sin, and how they should be treated with love and kindness. Like the addict I am, I went to the comments to check out the wars and rumors of wars.

One of the comments was simple: "What a toxic message and doctrine."

Normally I stay out of things like this and don't get involved.I don't know why this got under my skin. Could be a variety of things, but I think it's because I struggle with these things. God's grace and Christ's love are what are getting me through. It's a sensitive subject for me, 

I responded by saying that this chapter specifically talks about lustful actions outside of marriage. There are those who struggle with that, and if reaching out with love is toxic then I am toxic. I also made an uninformed comment about the side effects of, let's say, tenderizing the meat. And that did not go over well with this person. He basically said that I shouldn't be around children because I said that (among a few other things), which is ironic because I teach teenagers for a living. He also said I was unfamiliar with church doctrine. 

My thought process is this: Alma when talking about this is talking about a specific thing (i.e. lustful actions with another person) and makes no mention of anything else. He's not mentioning the actions of self stimulation, but is instead talking about sexual impropriety with another person. Our world has greatly changed in how we view these things. Compelling arguments to both sides having to do with consent of both parties involved and the bonds of marriage or any romantic relationship. 

I've since stated my case and apologized for any misunderstanding. This person will probably still respond again (this is a former member who is a self described "recovering Mormon") and will have much more to say to me.

God has asked us to control ourselves in many aspects. Nowadays some of those are deemed unhealthy by certain parties. It's just a greater evidence that those who believe in God and the scriptures will see things differently about the world than those who don't.

After reading the above responses to this post, I must say it never ceases to amaze me how the participants on this board would rather throw in their own less than fully informed 2 cents than appeal to the word of God for clear and definitive answers to questions. The angel who testified of Christ to King Benjamin makes it perfectly clear why in the case of Corianton his indulgence in sexual transgression was a sin in degree of seriousness next to murder. It’s because HE KNEW TOO MUCH concerning the will of God and the sacredness of sexual relations, and was therefore left without excuse for violating one of God’s most holy commandments. Those who have not made a clearheaded and fully informed and covenantal commitment to obey Christ are not judge with the same degree of strictness as are those who have made that kind of covenantal commitment by their own free will and choice. All of this hot air inspired controversy is ridiculous and so unnecessary.

11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.

12 But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. (Mosiah 3)

 

 

[ttribe]

7 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

After reading the above responses to this post, I must say it never ceases to amaze me how the participants on this board would rather throw in their own less than fully informed 2 cents than appeal to the word of God for clear and definitive answers to questions. The angel who testified of Christ to King Benjamin makes it perfectly clear why in the case of Corianton his indulgence in sexual transgression was a sin in degree of seriousness next to murder. It’s because HE KNEW TOO MUCH concerning the will of God and the sacredness of sexual relations, and was therefore left without excuse for violating one of God’s most holy commandments. Those who have not made a clearheaded and fully informed and covenantal commitment to obey Christ are not judge with the same degree of strictness as are those who have made that kind of covenantal commitment by their own free will and choice. All of this hot air inspired controversy is ridiculous and so unnecessary.

11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.

12 But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. (Mosiah 3)

 

 

Been a while. Always nice to be reminded that teddy is the most "informed" person on the board. Remind me again, Teddy, why aren't you an ordained Prophet, Seer, and Revelator? Clearly, in your mind, you are more in touch with God than anyone else, after all.

[Calm]

41 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. (Mosiah 3)

 

Corianton is an excellent example to teach repentance given ten chapters after he has been reprimanded he is back out on a mission along with his father and brother and the rest (as pointed out to me by a friend).  

Apparently even the sin next to murder whatever it is doesn’t prevent one from being able to repent if sincere, something that might want to be reflected upon by those who thought it better to come home in a pine box than early from a mission due to “dishonor”.  The gospel is truly God’s Good News.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/49?lang=eng#p30

30 Yea, and there was continual peace among them, and exceedingly great prosperity in the church because of their heed and diligence which they gave unto the word of God, which was declared unto them by Helaman, and Shiblon, and Corianton, and Ammon and his brethren, yea, and by all those who had been ordained by the holy order of God, being baptized unto repentance, and sent forth to preach among the people.

Quote

When we habitually understate the meaning of the Atonement, we take more serious risks than simply leaving one another without comforting reassurances – for some may simply drop out of the race, worn out and beaten down with the harsh and untrue belief that they are just not celestial material. (pp. 5-6 Bruce C. Hafen, 1989, The Broken Heart. Salt Lake City , UT : Deseret Book)

https://latterdaysaintmag.com/article-1-5049/#google_vignette

Edited August 12, 2024 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Isn’t it perfectly obvious? He simply saying that if the life of an unborn baby is cut short by abortion that the child will no longer continue to have earthly experiences. If he had used the expression “cutting short” rather than “shortcutting” his meaning would have been more clear.

And is cutting short the life of an unborn baby detrimental to the child in anyway in your view? What are the odds of eternal salvation for someone born vs unborn?

[blackstrap]

Criminals in prison have a code. They regard one particular kind of sin as the lowest of the low, and will exact revenge with no remorse.

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

Criminals in prison have a code. They regard one particular kind of sin as the lowest of the low, and will exact revenge with no remorse.

I don’t think we should be taking morality lessons from criminals, to be blunt.   

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

From a very different perspective, I wonder if Alma 39 reflects Joseph Smith dealing with his inner demons.

Seems unlikely given the object of Corianton’s (temporary, soon to be repented of) lust was famous, so possibly a popular courtesan or much more likely in my view, a fertility priestess participating in sexual rituals.  Seems too extreme of a picture to see Joseph seeing himself in Corianton, even if Joseph wanted to take off from what he knew was his mission and party instead because who doesn’t from time to time….a very human response, so it should hardly be surprising there is such a story in the BoM.

Edited August 12, 2024 by Calm

[blackstrap]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t think we should be taking morality lessons from criminals,

I don't disagree. I do find it interesting that even the very morally corrupt have boundaries they believe humanity should not cross. 

[Teancum]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

In Alma 39 Alma seems more interested in Corianton forsaking the ministry and hindering the work and much less so in the sexual sin.

Hugh Nibley used to posit that the harlot Isabel was a kind of fertility cult ritual and not a locally famous prostitute that Corianton had to travel to. Were there really famous prostitutes that drew you to travel long distances instead of getting a local one?

Also Alma talks about following after those “wicked harlots”. Kind of a jerk move there Alma. Most sex workers throughout history don’t choose that life. It is often do that or starve. Kind of a bad showing from Alma punching down on those Jesus would break bread with. Now if they were cult fertility priestesses that might make more sense. Why is it harlots in the plural? Was this an ongoing problem Corianton had? Or were they a religious group? Also if Corianton had an ongoing problem with chasing after prostitutes why did Alma bring him along in the first place?

So was the horrific sin that was near to murder the prostitute, the abandoning the ministry, or being such a bad public example that he led other people to sin? If you don’t bring preconceptions about sexual morality into the chapter it is hard to tell. Also this is reformed Alma the Younger here. Did he consider his possible youthful fornication worse than when he went about deliberately trying to destroy God’s church? Really?

The idea that sexual sin is the worst thing is ever is a very modern thing.

And thus the foolishness of creating an entire dogma of sexual sin being next to murder on something that pretends to be "scripture."  So much damage.

[Teancum]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Yes and no..

By another FAIR volunteer, a version I think is more on target, at least using that particular verse.

https://www.ldsscriptureteachings.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Michael-Ash-the-Sin-Next-to-Murder.pdf
 

 

Having said that, I do think she has a good point (just don’t use that verse to justify it and don’t frame it as next to murder imo); sexual sin is highly problematic imo in part because of what she said, the long term potential consequences; losing restraint in a relationship and engaging in inappropriate sexual behaviour makes an already emotionally complex activity too tangled up, imo.

OK.  But LDS leaders, prophets, seers and revelators, have interpreted this passage over and over and over to mean sexual sin is next to murder in seriousness.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

OK.  But LDS leaders, prophets, seers and revelators, have interpreted this passage over and over and over to mean sexual sin is next to murder in seriousness.

 Not denying that in the least.  And a lot of the justifications for connecting sexual sin with the sin next to murder work without that connection imo, such as Autumn’s explanation of the impact of sexual sins on us personally.  Cut it free from the verses and it is still a valid construction/counsel imo.

For those who wish to interpret it that way, I am not going to tell them they are wrong.  Just providing an alternative for those who never could make it fit like myself.

Edited August 12, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

something that pretends to be "scripture."

There is not the least pretense of it being scripture for those who see it as scripture just as the Bible or the Qur’an is scripture to those who value them as such.  Scripture is sacred texts and the BoM surely qualifies at that for Saints.

Now if you are thinking pretended revelation….that makes more sense even if I disagree and believe it is true revelation myself.

Edited August 12, 2024 by Calm