Sexual Sin and the FAIR Instagram Video on Alma 39

[Stargazer]

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Their obsession with making apostles look like idiots? That is clearly the goal.

Well, that much is certain.

One quotation that there didn't seem to be featured in the list was the legendary one about never having seen his wife unclothed. Since that would have been even more suited to make him look like an idiot, if it existed it should have been there, too. 

Goodness, I just noticed that I passed my 17th anniversary on this site back in April.

Edited August 16, 2024 by Stargazer

[The Nehor]

30 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Well, that much is certain.

One quotation that there didn't seem to be featured in the list was the legendary one about never having seen his wife unclothed. Since that would have been even more suited to make him look like an idiot, if it existed it should have been there, too. 

Goodness, I just noticed that I passed my 17th anniversary on this site back in April.

If someone said that to me I am just going to assume he is asexual or some form of queer.

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Goodness, I just noticed that I passed my 17th anniversary on this site back in April.

You are a newbie…I passed my 20th in January (honestly I am getting freaked out how my anniversaries are all multiple decades now, my sister and I were talking about age appropriate a few days ago and it just seems so wrong we are in range of 70 year olds).

[Stargazer]

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

45 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Goodness, I just noticed that I passed my 17th anniversary on this site back in April.

If someone said that to me I am just going to assume he is asexual or some form of queer.

I'm presuming that your comment was directed at the Peterson legend that I mentioned. But it doesn't seem to track with it...

And you've been here since 2003, that's four years longer than I have been. You're 21 years old here. That's ancient.

 

[Frank11]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

I did love my dad. I loved him even more for making that a rule of the house. But yeah, my primary motivation was not getting kicked out, it wasn't to make him happy. 

I disagree that that is exactly how Christianity works. You'd have to be specific as to which denominations you're referring to as loving people into obedience. Any sect I can think of thinks either you're going to hell unless you believe in Christ or confess that you're saved or get baptized. The ones that don't preach that preach instead that there are no rules, you only need to believe and then you can do whatever you want. There is no loving into obedience because there is nothing to obey. The Book of Mormon contains a lot of "repent or be damned" language in it, as does the D&C. However, I'm pretty sure the LDS church is the only church that believes that all excepting perdition are dwelling in God's glory, in some capacity, forever.

I don't even think that far.

When I read your story, I immediately had an important sentence from Jesus in mind: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

So that means motivation through love. For example, if I say to one of my sons, I really care about this and I'm very worried about it, and I really want you to change it, then I try to motivate him through our close relationship.

On the other hand, I might tell the craftsman who absolutely refuses to see the mistake that if you don't fix it, I'll sue you. I try to motivate him by threatening a consequence. But I do that because I don't have a close relationship with him and have no leverage above the relationship level.

I believe that Jesus primarily wants to motivate through love, although actions naturally also have their uncomfortable consequences. If I were to cheat, I would risk my marriage and my children would no longer respect me. 

And if you hadn't attended your classes, your later career would have been in danger, regardless of whether your father punished you or not.

 

[Stargazer]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are a newbie…I passed my 20th in January (honestly I am getting freaked out how my anniversaries are all multiple decades now, my sister and I were talking about age appropriate a few days ago and it just seems so wrong we are in range of 70 year olds).

I've reconciled myself to being in my 70s. I kind of like it. I'll be 73 in October. 

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I've reconciled myself to being in my 70s. I kind of like it. I'll be 73 in October. 

If Mom didn’t have dementia in her 80s (and her mother and her mother), I probably would be looking at it differently, but alas I have a strong sense of Expired By sometime in my 70s.

[Bernard Gui]

On 8/12/2024 at 2:13 PM, ttribe said:

Been a while. Always nice to be reminded that teddy is the most "informed" person on the board. Remind me again, Teddy, why aren't you an ordained Prophet, Seer, and Revelator? Clearly, in your mind, you are more in touch with God than anyone else, after all.

This is neither necessary nor helpful. Nor is it truthful.

Edited August 17, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I've reconciled myself to being in my 70s. I kind of like it. I'll be 73 in October. 

I’ve got you beat by almost 5 years. The older you get the more invisible you become. 

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I'm presuming that your comment was directed at the Peterson legend that I mentioned. But it doesn't seem to track with it...

And you've been here since 2003, that's four years longer than I have been. You're 21 years old here. That's ancient.

Intentionally avoiding seeing nudity reminds me of some of my sex-repulsed ace (asexual) friends. Wow, I am getting close to having spent half my life as a member of this board. 

[Stargazer]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

If Mom didn’t have dementia in her 80s (and her mother and her mother), I probably would be looking at it differently, but alas I have a strong sense of Expired By sometime in my 70s.

Perhaps your chromosomes received an update via your father? Both my father and his father died very early (40's) from heart problems, but my mother's fine chromosomes seem to have corrected it in my case and my brother's. Let us hope!

My wife's parents both suffered from dementia in their old age, so there seems to be a risk for her. 

 

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’ve got you beat by almost 5 years. The older you get the more invisible you become. 

Transparency here I come!  

[Frank11]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Intentionally avoiding seeing nudity reminds me of some of my sex-repulsed ace (asexual) friends. Wow, I am getting close to having spent half my life as a member of this board. 

I always thought that if you weren't allowed to have sex as a teenager and then you're married and finally allowed to have sex, it's like dreaming for years about being allowed to ride a motorcycle and then being old enough to get your driver's license and then finally being allowed to drive for real. 
But when I saw the interview with the woman, it's probably not that easy for some people. After all, something that was previously considered dirty and a temptation from the devil is now allowed. Showing yourself naked in front of your partner is also considered dirty if you're not married yet, but after marriage it's completely normal. This rethinking in the mind does not seem to be so easy for some people. If the Peterson story is true, there could be a connection. 
The relevant YouTube clip from the interview:  

 

 

 

[manol]

On 8/16/2024 at 11:19 AM, JVW said:

I absolutely believe that God can feel wrath and anger. In my attempt to have a relationship with Him I have become more raw and vulnerable and honest with expressing my emotions to Him. I have been angry with Him at times. If I cannot expect God to reciprocate, in a perfect manner, the feelings He has and that same level of vulnerability, then I'm going to hold back on how raw I'm actually going to be with Him. Anger is not a bad emotion. All feelings are given to us by God, they are a part of the very essence of life that He has given us. Anger is a gift, and it can be very good and powerful when used appropriately, just as any other emotion can be. Any emotions used without restraint will result in a negative outcome for the person experiencing them. And the inverse of that statement is also true. If I am dealing with a Being who is never angry, then what else is He holding back and hiding from me? Dealing with a person in real life who is never angry is kind of creepy. I want to experience who people really are in my interactions with them, not some mask or facade they put on that they think I'll like to deal with the most.

Imagine things from God's perspective. He gives all that He has, all the time, to everyone. He promises everything in His covenants and He gives all of His blood, sweat, and tears for His people. If He is betrayed, does it not hurt Him? If someone is acting like a rude brat, does it not irritate Him? If someone blasphemes His Holy Name and leads His children into paths of everlasting darkness, does He not get angry? Is He not angry when He sees children trafficked and sold for organ parts to the highest bidder? Would I like Him more if He didn't get angry at that?

 

I understand what you are saying, and for most of my life have felt the exact same way, though I could not have articulated it as well as you have.

And I understand the concept of using harsh language for effect on those who are deaf to other means of communication. “Wisdom is justified of her children.” Sometimes you gotta do what it takes to get your point across when the (virtual or literal) noise floor is too high, like Christ cleansing the Temple. Nor am I arguing against prudence! It is prudent to stay safe and to protect the innocent.

But here I'm focusing on something else.

To the extent of my limited current understanding, I prioritize the concept of actually BEING the same manner of men and women as Christ, here and now. I apologize in advance for the length of this post; I'm trying to adequately explain an unorthodox paradigm... and brevity is not among of my gifts.

(For the record, I do not assume that what I think I'm supposed to work on in this life is necessarily what you or anyone else is supposed to work on in this life. I think we each come to earth school to work on whatever we need to work on the most.)

So this will all just be one person's off-the-wall opinion. Here we go.

This life presents us with many excuses for becoming angry or outraged or resentful, but indulging in these kinds of thoughts never enlarges the soul. “Hatred ceases not by hatred, but by love. This is the eternal law.” I'm quoting Buddha but that could just as well have been something Christ taught. It is entirely consistent with the thought system that says “love your enemies, return not evil for evil, forgive without keeping score.” Recall what was happening when Christ said, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Imo someone striving to be the same manner of man or woman as Christ would see anything that anyone did to them, or to anyone else, through that same lens, to the best of their ability in the moment.

Let me try to explain why I think this matters:

Imo we are like radios that can be tuned-in to different “stations”, or different levels of spiritual energy. We are always aligned with, or tuned-in to, some type or level or quality of spiritual energy. We do this by what we allow and/or invite to occupy our minds, so we are inevitably doing it all the time. We can choose to tune in to anger, fear, shame, despair, outrage, hatred, grievance, vengeance, resentment, and so forth. Or we can tune in to the other end of the spectrum, to love, forgiveness, kindness, hope, oneness with Christ, the Presence of God within us. And, we also broadcast on whatever “frequency” we are tuned-in to! But here's the thing: We cannot be tuned-in to a low frequency and simultaneously broadcast on a high frequency. We cannot simultaneously serve two masters, which is why perfect love casts out fear:  Their "frequencies" are mutually exclusive.

When we indulge in outrage (for instance), if we are paying attention, we will notice that our spirits are darkened. We might not notice if our “default station” setting is pretty low to begin with. But something miraculous happens when we forgive: The darkness dissipates, and we may even receive (and therefore broadcast) the energy of love. “Father forgive them” is not just for special occasions. It probably won't come naturally yet, as we will have to learn to let go of every thought that stands in the way of forgiveness. But imo it is our calling and our privilege to forgive everyone of everything.  Try it!  You can always go back if you don't like how it feels. 

Imo the greater the challenge, the greater the opportunity for progress. If we can choose light, even just the tiniest little hint of a glimmer of light, when the only thing in evidence is darkness, we will have made enormous progress.

So, what kind of broadcast does God send out, which is “in all things and through all things”? What kind of spiritual energy goes Christ send out, which “fills the immensity of space”? I may be wrong, but I do not think they bother spending time tuned-in to, and broadcasting on, the low end of the spiritual energy spectrum.

But for the sake of argument let's say I'm wrong about this, and that being Christ-like includes continued participation in the full range of human emotions, including feeling outraged, fearful, hopeless, resentful, vengeful, whatever. Well, I don't know about you, but I've ALREADY learned those skills! They are the path of least resistance and required zero effort. It is the OTHER skills, those which would enable me to love God without reservation, and love my neighbor as myself, and to turn the other cheek without feeling I was betraying myself, that I still need to develop. So THOSE are what I believe should be my focus at this time. To reiterate, I am not claiming this applies to you or to anyone besides me.

I can use my mind to choose, justify, and defend my righteous indignation and my collection of grievances. OR I can use my mind to choose, justify, and defend forgiveness and love. I believe the latter to be the better use of my mind. And when I choose wrongly (which happens all the dang time!), I can always choose again, to the best of my ability in the moment.

You may have noticed that I haven't focused on behavior. Thoughts are cause, and behavior is their effect; neither is wrong to focus on, but ime inner peace is absent when our thoughts and our behavior conflict, so I focus on correcting my thoughts.  Nor have I focused much on motivation, but as we shift our “default tuning” we are also shifting our intrinsic motivation. “My yoke is easy and my burden is light” happens when our intrinsic motivation has shifted into alignment with God's will.

But do notice how many ideas in the scriptures are about being “tuned-in” to the highest spiritual energy available to us, even though none of them use a radio analogy: Love God completely and without reservation. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love your enemies. Forgive without keeping score. Forgive all men. Your faith has made you whole.  Perfect love casts out fear.  God is love, and we are in his image and likeness.  The Kingdom of Heaven is within you.

Christ is the light of the world. We are the light of the world. Present tense. I think we are called to be receivers and broadcasters of light.

But that's just my opinion, and I'm still learning, so I expect my paradigm to evolve and/or shift.

Edited August 17, 2024 by manol

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Perhaps your chromosomes received an update via your father? Both my father and his father died very early (40's) from heart problems, but my mother's fine chromosomes seem to have corrected it in my case and my brother's. Let us hope!

My wife's parents both suffered from dementia in their old age, so there seems to be a risk for her. 

 

Lol, I spend more and more time deciding which part of the family I take after the older I get. In facial appearance I am very much like my mother, but everything else is quite different except height. It’s hard not to think I take after her most when I see her looking at me in the mirror though.  It’s kind of creepy these days to be honest because the resemblance is more now than younger.  

With the rest of my family (outside of the rls), I kind of hit the jackpot health wise, so I am trying to focus on that, especially that my skull size and brain appear to mimic my dad’s oversized version (I wear men’s large hats) and surely brain and skull is more important to dementia than eyes, nose and mouth.  Skin cancer is the only thing that everyone had and I have been very careful as a teen and adult not to get too much sun as I burnt very, very easily, so my doctor says my skin looks fantastic.   So that is off my worry checklist. 

Iow, I have way too much time on my hands and I need another hobby besides health, lol

Edited August 17, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Frank11 said:

This rethinking in the mind does not seem to be so easy for some people.

This can definitely be an issue according to my BYU psych teachers way back when and from what I have heard and studied since then. Sexuality does not operate with on/off switches even if we expect it to. 

I think it helps if there is a lot of physical affection expressed between parents in front of the kids. Nothing explicit or more than PG/PG 13 (what counts for PG 13 these days, I don’t pay attention to ratings anymore?) is needed imo, but just so it is obvious as the kids grow older that they are comfortable being physical with each other and actually enjoy it. 

And honestly I don’t think it hurts to accidentally see your parents naked on occasion (separately, like one of them dashing to the laundry to get underwear when they thought no one was around kind of thing) if it conveys the message they are comfortable with their own bodies and nakedness. Hiding ourselves behind doors from our kids is a relatively recent development for most people when they couldn’t afford more than one bedroom in a home, if that. 

Today’s culture pushing the ideal body and showing it so much, that can mess up sex as much as not showing enough imo. Hard to want to show your body to someone else if you have problems looking at it yourself because you have absorbed the message that your body isn’t that attractive (I find it bizarre that people are fat shaming Olympic athletes as if their strength is unhealthy***) because of all those ‘perfect’ bodies that are constantly in your face.  People need to remember that those well defined muscle pics are typically a result of significant dehydration, not a healthy practice.  And then there is cosmetic surgery.  Not saying don’t have it, but it is a shame if one feels forced to, that one can’t be happy without it. What a messed up culture that makes its people get cut up to feel beautiful. 

***https://youtube.com/shorts/lD_XvA8vGf8?feature=shared

 

Edited August 17, 2024 by Calm

[Frank11]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

What a messed up culture that makes its people get cut up to feel beautiful. 

... although there are ideals of beauty in every culture in the World and at every time and these can change dramatically with every century. 
My wife is Chinese and has a beautiful light brown tan. However, the Chinese ideal of beauty is to be as white as possible and she is always surprised that people here in Germany go to solariums.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Frank11 said:

... although there are ideals of beauty in every culture in the World and at every time and these can change dramatically with every century. 
My wife is Chinese and has a beautiful light brown tan. However, the Chinese ideal of beauty is to be as white as possible and she is always surprised that people here in Germany go to solariums.

That is mostly a carryover from premodern societies. To have light skin generally meant you didn’t have to labor as much so lighter skin was a symbol of nobility or wealth. The west industrialized sooner and being inside all day at a lot of our jobs reversed the beauty standards a bit.

[Bernard Gui]

On 8/17/2024 at 10:10 AM, Frank11 said:

I always thought that if you weren't allowed to have sex as a teenager and then you're married and finally allowed to have sex, it's like dreaming for years about being allowed to ride a motorcycle and then being old enough to get your driver's license and then finally being allowed to drive for real. 
But when I saw the interview with the woman, it's probably not that easy for some people. After all, something that was previously considered dirty and a temptation from the devil is now allowed. Showing yourself naked in front of your partner is also considered dirty if you're not married yet, but after marriage it's completely normal. This rethinking in the mind does not seem to be so easy for some people. If the Peterson story is true, there could be a connection. 
The relevant YouTube clip from the interview:  

 

 

 

Modesty is not dirty. It’s the exact opposite.

Edited August 19, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Frank11]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Modesty is not dirty. It’s the exact opposite.

Did I say modesty is dirty?

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Frank11 said:

Did I say modesty is dirty?

Maybe I misunderstood or you were unclear. 
 

Quote

After all, something that was previously considered dirty and a temptation from the devil is now allowed. Showing yourself naked in front of your partner is also considered dirty if you're not married yet, but after marriage it's completely normal.

 

Edited August 19, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[teddyaware]

58 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Maybe I misunderstood or you were unclear. 
 

 

He wasn’t saying modesty is dirty. Rather, he was saying immodesty (i.e. sexually provocative nudity before marriage) is considered dirty.

[Calm]

On 8/15/2024 at 2:13 PM, Frank11 said:

however, that those outside the church who live together before marriage do not live as godlessly as some like to portray.

You may be interested to see this in the new CHI update:

Quote

Women. As an exception, a living woman who is not currently married or sealed to another man may be sealed to a deceased man with whom she cohabited. This exception may be considered only if their relationship was of such a nature and duration to show a determination to do all of the following:

Be faithful to one another in a permanent relationship.

Fulfill all marital responsibilities to each other.

Fulfill all parental responsibilities to any children they had.

If the member’s stake president feels that such an exception is warranted, he submits a request to the Office of the First Presidency….

Men. As an exception, a living man may be sealed to a deceased woman with whom he cohabited if she was not sealed to another man during her life. This exception may be considered only if their relationship was of such a nature and duration to show a determination to do all of the following:

Be faithful to one another in a permanent relationship.

Fulfill all marital responsibilities to each other.

Fulfill all parental responsibilities to any children they had.

Before being sealed to a deceased woman, a married man must receive written consent from his current wife if she is living.

If the member’s stake president feels that such an exception is warranted, he submits a request to the Office of the First Presidency.

 

Edited August 20, 2024 by Calm

[Frank11]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

You may be interested to see this in the new CHI update:

That's what I always say, the church is getting better.

[Teancum]

On 8/15/2024 at 1:29 PM, Calm said:

But one should be cautious in counseling anyone to live together before marriage if the intent is a long term marriage.  I have heard the reasoning that one should be sure they are sexually compatible before marriage to prevent breakup over that, but apparently that reassurance doesn’t increase stability, maybe because if both are virgins there are no negative comparisons to other partners or worry one isn’t as good.

Well I can guarantee you that there are married couples, within and without the church, who did not live together but may may have had premarital sex with others before marriage. In some cases multiple partners. And cases where one may have been sexually active and the other a virgin when married.  And even if both are virgins there can be significant differences in sexual compatibility.