Alternative structures for the ministering program

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, Amulek said:

Looking forward to you circling back and sharing your ideas. One thing I forgot to mention before that we have considered on occasion, but that the system won't allow for, is to have ministers assigned to each other (i.e., Brothers A and B minister to Families X and Y; and then assign Brother X and Y minister to Families A and B; that's apparently cheating or something).

 

How do you mean that the system won't allow it?

When I was elders quorum president there were a number of those in my ward.  We didn't really like the idea so we changed them.

 

[Amulek]

20 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

How do you mean that the system won't allow it?

It flags them and the changes won't go through. At least, they didn't when we were working on our stuff this weekend (it popped up a couple of times when we were trying to get all of the new move-ins accounted for). I suppose it's possible that behavior is a bug, but it looked to be intentional.

 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Amulek said:

Looking forward to you circling back and sharing your ideas. One thing I forgot to mention before that we have considered on occasion, but that the system won't allow for, is to have ministers assigned to each other (i.e., Brothers A and B minister to Families X and Y; and then assign Brother X and Y minister to Families A and B; that's apparently cheating or something).

 

That's a novel idea!

[ksfisher]

11 minutes ago, Amulek said:

It flags them and the changes won't go through.

That must have been a change made in the last 2-3 years.  Before that the computer would allow it.

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Would have circled back sooner, but it was a rather busy weekend (my birthday and all that).  

The first idea I toyed with was a "ministering circle" kind of deal.  Members within each circle would minister to each other equally.  The scriptural paradigm would draw more from Brigham Young's organization of the pioneer companies in D&C 136, and less from the two-by-two paradigm of the New Testament.  A couple of advantages to Ministering Circles would be the ease with which new members could be added to a circle without disrupting any other ministering assignments (and conversely the ease with which a move-out could be removed).  Ministering Circles could also allow for class time to be set aside once a month or once a quarter for the circle to meet together (something that is much more difficult when ministering relationships are asymmetrical).  

The challenge here (and it may be bigger than I had initially thought) is the potential for insularity and clannishness.  Then too, it sounds like the software itself wouldn't be able to handle such a novel overhaul to the old structure.  Further, it sounds like at least some areas or stakes have a policy against symmetrical ministering assignments, which makes this particular idea even more of a non-starter.   

At this point, improving the quality of ministering is a secondary consideration for me (though such improvements wouldn't be unwelcome).  I just want to find a way to administer the program more efficiently, so that our presidency meetings can do more than move names around on a computer screen.   

This might work in Utah but, I think not in the rest of the church, where,as you admit, there would be a problem with varieties of church experience could be very diverse.

Some newbie "friends" may have never given a talk or made a comment in class, or have language problems with English, or feel intimidated by the former bishop or SP he is sitting next to.  

I am just trying to say that it is wonderful to have more diversity in church, but diversity of church knowledge can make lessons and discussions more difficult.  You will still have some people saying nothing, and others monopolizing the discussions.   

 

[The Nehor]

I hate forced socializing as a ‘duty’.

Playdates assigned by other people are for children.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I hate forced socializing as a ‘duty’.

Playdates assigned by other people are for children.

Yeah, what if you didn't like each other.

[cherryTreez]

I hate all of it. I wish they would make it do you can opt out of all of it. I will never ask for anything from someone assigned to me. It's all fake.  

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, cherryTreez said:

I hate all of it. I wish they would make it do you can opt out of all of it. I will never ask for anything from someone assigned to me. It's all fake.  

You should let your RS president know that you don't want ministering sisters, or to be one.  That's a legitimate choice.

[Calm]

16 hours ago, cherryTreez said:

I hate all of it. I wish they would make it do you can opt out of all of it. I will never ask for anything from someone assigned to me. It's all fake.  

It is not fake if they desire to serve others any more than it’s fake for your kids’ teachers to want to help them learn.  Just because someone is assigned to your care doesn’t mean your heart isn’t in it (such as doctors and nurses, caregivers at any institution, even waiters and stewards, receptionists, etc).  Now not all caregivers/teachers are sincere, some may have come to hate their job and are just enduring for the paycheck, but I don’t think one should make any global assumption about sincerity based on assignments to serve.

Edited May 30, 2024 by Calm

[Rain]

4 hours ago, cherryTreez said:

I hate all of it. I wish they would make it do you can opt out of all of it. I will never ask for anything from someone assigned to me. It's all fake.  

If you don't want to be assigned I'm ok with that.

It isn't all fake though. I've had 3 dear friends that came through ministering. In fact I do a couple of things every month with one of them just socially and have spent a lot of time with her at dr visits and the hospital. When I told her that I wasn't going to be ministering to her anymore she had a rough time with that. I told her it would be ok and that nothing would change.  I just wouldn't be assigned anymore.  

I've found that there are many beautiful experiences one can have through ministering/VtIng because of the connection opportunity it gives you. I would probably never made that connection on my own with these 3 women. I'm grateful for that opportunity.

 

[cherryTreez]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It is not fake if they desire to serve others any more than it’s fake for your kids’ teachers to want to help them learn.  Just because some is assigned to your care doesn’t mean your heart isn’t in it (such as doctors and nurses, caregivers at any institution, even waiters and steward’s, receptionists, etc).  Now not all caregivers/teachers are sincere, some may have come to hate their job and are just enduring for the paycheck, but I don’t think one should make any global assumption about sincerity based on assignments to serve.

Too many times I had people assigned to minster or visit teach me that acted like they cared.  The moment that they were unassigned, I didn't exist.  They couldn't even say hi back in the halls at church. This happened at least 3 times. That says it is fake.  I stopped caring at that point. 

 

Maybe for some people it can be real. I haven't found that to be that case.

[ZealouslyStriving]

Honestly, if our Wards strived to live Zionically© we wouldn't even need a ministry program because we would be like a loving family finding every opportunity to do things together. We rely way too much on getting Church permission or waiting for a Church designed program to get together.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Honestly, if our Wards strived to live Zionically© we wouldn't even need a ministry program because we would be like a loving family finding every opportunity to do things together. We rely way too much on getting Church permission or waiting for a Church designed program to get together.

This is why I think ministering is taught from the wrong direction. Assignments can work for some people at some points in their lives, but ultimately it goes back to changing behavior over teaching/ understanding doctine/ principles. That is why I think it needs to start with leaders loving those around them and showing it. If leaders are not understanding principles and doctrines of "we are Gods children" and the principle of loving each of his children then people will not get that ministering is only a matter of making sure that every person feels that love. 

Edited May 30, 2024 by Rain

[mfbukowski]

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Yeah, what if you didn't like each other.

Fix it.

What would Jesus do?  🤕 -> 😇

😉

[mfbukowski]

53 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Honestly, if our Wards strived to live Zionically© we wouldn't even need a ministry program because we would be like a loving family finding every opportunity to do things together. We rely way too much on getting Church permission or waiting for a Church designed program to get together.

Think CelestiaLLY. 

 

[Calm]

11 hours ago, cherryTreez said:

Too many times I had people assigned to minster or visit teach me that acted like they cared.  The moment that they were unassigned, I didn't exist.  They couldn't even say hi back in the halls at church. This happened at least 3 times. That says it is fake.  I stopped caring at that point. 

 

Maybe for some people it can be real. I haven't found that to be that case.

Sounds like you have been very unlucky.  Your POV makes sense that way and is probably shared by quite a few given how too many people behave in the Church and out of it.  

I haven’t gotten any good friends out of it that weren’t already good friends, but we at least stayed acquaintances and said hi to each other and occasionally would have conversations.

[The Nehor]

21 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Yeah, what if you didn't like each other.

I mean that can be a problem but it goes deeper. Even if I like someone I don’t want to be an obligation that we both endure.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Fix it.

What would Jesus do?  🤕 -> 😇

😉

When people didn’t like Him or listen to what He said? He usually just left.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Honestly, if our Wards strived to live Zionically© we wouldn't even need a ministry program because we would be like a loving family finding every opportunity to do things together. We rely way too much on getting Church permission or waiting for a Church designed program to get together.

I have some family members that I sincerely love but know it is for the best not to spend too much time with them.

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I have some family members that I sincerely love but know it is for the best not to spend too much time with them.

Sorry to hear that.

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I mean that can be a problem but it goes deeper. Even if I like someone I don’t want to be an obligation that we both endure.

I think we have a major problem in our culture (both in church and outside of it) where we often don’t have a problem with serving others, but we highly dislike or even hate being at the other end of the relationship instead of looking on it as a gift to the other you are giving when they have an opportunity to serve you (since serving others is one of the most effective ways to learn to love them as well as so many opportunities for personal growth).  I don’t believe guilting people into serving is wise though as that often backfires.  Somehow we need to learn to see being cared for, being an obligation is not a bad thing…and then hopefully it does not become something we must endure.

Not sure how to teach that.  I really don’t like the way I seem to be using and that is by not having the option to say “no” in many cases.  I still manage to say “no” in the majority of cases as I can afford to pay young ladies to come help when needed and now that my husband is retired, I won’t need to ask for drivers to doctors appointments.

Also life is so crowded these days even when we wouldn’t mind serving, we stay unaware of the needs of others because we don’t pay attention since so many other things are insisting deal with them.

And then we know how awkward the other is likely to feel if we do serve them in some way and we want to spare them awkwardness…

If we actually felt mutually obligated*** to care for others and taught that obligation was of prime importance in our lives and that sense of obligation was pushed beyond just our communities, I think the world would be happier and safer and less inequality and bigotry would exist.

***not the noblesse oblige, white man’s burden or any other oh so patronizing position, but one of simply viewing the other as not the other, but simply someone who deserves being cared for as much as I deserve the same and that it is a privilege to be in any position to serve and be served by these individuals around me.

If we learned to expect our lives would be a group project and we could be sure that enough of us would be able to show up for others in their lives so they could rightly trust they would get help if they planned on it, what miracles could happen.

Edited May 30, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I have some family members that I sincerely love but know it is for the best not to spend too much time with them.

Any time in one case in my family.  Not hard to do since they have banned anyone from contacting them.  We go through one of their adult children who is on good terms with the family when needed, but only in absolutely necessary cases because it isn’t fair to their child to feel like they are stuck in the middle or expected to choose sides all the time.

Edited May 30, 2024 by Calm

[The Nehor]

23 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Sorry to hear that.

Why? I am not saying they are bad people or that they are irritating.. They aren’t. I love them. I like interacting with them. Just that too much time interacting with them would drain me and possibly them.

[Malc]

On 5/30/2024 at 2:38 AM, cherryTreez said:

Too many times I had people assigned to minster or visit teach me that acted like they cared.  The moment that they were unassigned, I didn't exist.  They couldn't even say hi back in the halls at church. This happened at least 3 times. That says it is fake.  I stopped caring at that point. 

Maybe for some people it can be real. I haven't found that to be that case.

I've found that the constant shuffling of assignments added to the feeling that there was no genuine caring involved - at least in most cases.

Having home teachers assigned when I didn't want them, and at other times having someone show up on the last couple of days of the month so that they could report that they "did their duty" was borderline insulting.

And I say this as someone who did exactly that - in an attempt not to be ashamed of not doing my statistical duty, I completely failed to perform my real duty of loving those assigned to me.

One branch I was a member of was a combination of two small towns about 25 miles apart with nobody in between. One night a month was designated for the members of town A to get together and drive to town B for HT/VT visits, and members in town B were supposed to all stay home that night to be visited. And vice versa on another night.