Deuteronomy 7

[mfbukowski]

I just wanted to remind us all that this is in the Bible.  Interesting in today's context.

Comments?

Deuteronomy 7, QUOTE :

7 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

² And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

³ Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

⁴ For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

⁵ But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

⁶ For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

[CV75]

34 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I just wanted to remind us all that this is in the Bible.  Interesting in today's context.

Comments?

Deuteronomy 7, QUOTE :

7 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

² And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

³ Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

⁴ For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

⁵ But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

⁶ For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

These six verses of ancient scripture (which are likely what the 7th century BCE scribes attributed to Moses some seven centuries after the Exodus) seem easy enough to read; what do you mean by "today's context"?

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I just wanted to remind us all that this is in the Bible.  Interesting in today's context.

Comments?

Deuteronomy 7, QUOTE :

7 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

² And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

³ Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

⁴ For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

⁵ But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

⁶ For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

Well, for a start this doesn't give license to any country or people to start conquering anyone else. It's a one-time license to a particular people. And by license, I mean "permission or mandate to do something that would otherwise be forbidden."

We're you going somewhere else with this? 🙂

[Pyreaux]

Or Deuteronomy could be propaganda by xenophobic Levitical scribes, using segments by Moses, but compiled during the reign of King Manasseh and planted in the temple to dupe young King Josiah to begin a xenophobic regime, an anti-Melchizedek, anti-temple, anti-prophesy, anti-theophany, anti-proto-Christian reform that ultimately led to Jerusalem to be razed three times. Says 1 Enoch 93:7-8 that describes a wicked period just before the destruction of the Jerusalem temple by the Babylonians. Enoch reports that the priest became “blind” having forsaken “Wisdom”, calling her evil. 

Edited March 4, 2024 by Pyreaux

[manol]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I just wanted to remind us all that this is in the Bible.  Interesting in today's context.

Comments?

Deuteronomy 7, QUOTE :

7 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

² And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

³ Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

⁴ For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

⁵ But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

⁶ For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

To borrrow a metaphor from Alma the Younger, that passage does not taste sweet to my soul.  I'm not going to eat it; that is, I choose to not internalize the paradigm taught by those verses.  My loyalty is to the Spirit, to the highest truth that I know at this time, and not to any book.

Edited March 4, 2024 by manol

[blackstrap]

Makes one wonder what was going on in the groves and on the alters to get God so upset. 

On a side note, if there is one thing that I have learned about the scriptures from biblical scholars, it is that whoever the title says wrote the book, obviously did not and it is unclear who did. 🙃

Edited March 4, 2024 by blackstrap

[Tacenda]

49 minutes ago, manol said:

To borrrow a metaphor from Alma the Younger, that passage does not taste sweet to my soul.  I'm not going to eat it; that is, I choose to not internalize the paradigm taught by those verses.  My loyalty is to the Spirit, to the highest truth that I know at this time, and not to any book.

I can't love this enough!

[The Nehor]

This reads like an after the fact rationalization to me and is possibly amplified deliberately to stir up hatred.

In other words it sounds like propaganda. Propaganda does not always play fast and loose with facts but I suspect this propaganda does.

[pogi]

On 3/3/2024 at 5:41 PM, blackstrap said:

Makes one wonder what was going on in the groves…

Worship of Ashera, the Mother of Heaven.

[blackstrap]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Worship of Ashera, the Mother of Heaven.

Was that the band's name ? Sounds a bit like Woodstock. 😁

[mfbukowski]

On 3/3/2024 at 5:48 PM, The Nehor said:

This reads like an after the fact rationalization to me and is possibly amplified deliberately to stir up hatred.

In other words it sounds like propaganda. Propaganda does not always play fast and loose with facts but I suspect this propaganda does.

Projection.

I wanted to see how folks reacted to a quote from the bible, in troubling times, and I got my answers.

[mfbukowski]

On 3/3/2024 at 2:50 PM, Stargazer said:

Well, for a start this doesn't give license to any country or people to start conquering anyone else. It's a one-time license to a particular people. And by license, I mean "permission or mandate to do something that would otherwise be forbidden."

We're you going somewhere else with this? 🙂

Nope.

[manol]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I wanted to see how folks reacted to a quote from the bible, in troubling times, and I got my answers.

I think it's difficult for people within and committed to a religion to take a "cafeteria" approach to that religion's scriptures, creeds, and teachings.  For most of my life, my instinct would have been to either outright agree with that passage, or find a rationalization that doesn't put me in the unenviable position of throwing a passage from the Bible under the bus.  

I don't know the extent to which this is true of other religions, but within Mormonism there are teachings which leave room for individuals to arrive at non-mainstream conclusions.  I see that as a feature and not a bug.

[Teancum]

On 3/3/2024 at 4:39 PM, mfbukowski said:

I just wanted to remind us all that this is in the Bible.  Interesting in today's context.

Comments?

Deuteronomy 7, QUOTE :

7 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

² And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

³ Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

⁴ For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

⁵ But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

⁶ For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

Gotta love that God of war Yahweh.  Such a lovely cuddly god.  😏  It is also really nice the Israelites found a tribal warring god to make them feel rather chosen and special, I mean really special!  Above ALL PEOPLE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH. That is pretty special and well if your god is telling you that you can do all sorts of atrocious things like the words put into Yahweh's mouth.   

What it tells me is humans ought to move on from these "gods" that they have created in their images.  Time to grow up.

Edited March 5, 2024 by Teancum

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Gotta love that God of war Yahweh.  Such a lovely cuddly god.  😏  It is also really nice the Israelites found a tribal warring god to make them feel rather chosen and special, I mean really special!  Above ALL PEOPLE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH. That is pretty special and well if your god is telling you that you can do all sorts of atrocious things like the words put into Yahweh's mouth.   

What it tells me is humans ought to move on from these "gods" that they have created in their images.  Time to grow up.

Stop preaching witchcraft and lies! Who else will protect us from the devil’s sorcery?

 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, manol said:

I think it's difficult for people within and committed to a religion to take a "cafeteria" approach to that religion's scriptures, creeds, and teachings.  For most of my life, my instinct would have been to either outright agree with that passage, or find a rationalization that doesn't put me in the unenviable position of throwing a passage from the Bible under the bus.  

I don't know the extent to which this is true of other religions, but within Mormonism there are teachings which leave room for individuals to arrive at non-mainstream conclusions.  I see that as a feature and not a bug.

Not surprisingly, we agree

It's all based on personal testimony, unless apparently you were taught by fundamentalists in Utah.

I have never heard or seen half the stuff I see folks preaching around here.  It's all Santa Claus gone rogue.  Literalism.  No bueno mi amigos.

Lol.  I corrected a typo there, but I kind if like it.

I initially typoed "Amigods" !

There you go.  Rorty sought a God who was a FRIEND of mankind, and here it is.

It's good we at least dropped the "Mormon Cult" moniker, now we have to make it real

 

Edited March 5, 2024 by mfbukowski

[teddyaware]

On 3/3/2024 at 4:39 PM, mfbukowski said:

I just wanted to remind us all that this is in the Bible.  Interesting in today's context.

Comments?

Deuteronomy 7, QUOTE :

7 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

² And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

³ Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

⁴ For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

⁵ But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

⁶ For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

Does this mean that the putatively righteous Nephi was actually a knuckle-dragging moral reprobate for believing that God had empowered the children of Israel to utterly destroy evil nations that had fully ripened in iniquity?

29 Yea, and ye also know that Moses, by his word according to the power of God which was in him, smote the rock, and there came forth water, that the children of Israel might quench their thirst.

30 And notwithstanding they being led, the Lord their God, their Redeemer, going before them, leading them by day and giving light unto them by night, and doing all things for them which were expedient for man to receive, they hardened their hearts and blinded their minds, and reviled against Moses and against the true and living God.

31 And it came to pass that according to his word he did destroy them; and according to his word he did lead them; and according to his word he did do all things for them; and there was not any thing done save it were by his word.

32 And after they had crossed the river Jordan he (God) did make them mighty unto the driving out of the children of the land, yea, unto the scattering them to destruction.

33 And now, do ye suppose that the children of this land, who were in the land of promise, who were driven out by our fathers, do ye suppose that they were righteous? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.

 

33 And now, do ye suppose that the children of this land, who were in the land of promise, who were driven out by our fathers, do ye suppose that they were righteous? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.

34 Do ye suppose that our fathers would have been more choice than they if they had been righteous? I say unto you, Nay.

35 Behold, the Lord esteemeth all flesh in one; he that is righteous is favored of God. But behold, this people had rejected every word of God, and they were ripe in iniquity; and the fulness of the wrath of God was upon them; and the Lord did curse the land against them, and bless it unto our fathers; yea, he did curse it against them unto their destruction, and he did bless it unto our fathers unto their obtaining power over it. (1 Nephi 17)

By Nephi’s own testimony it was God, not man, who brought about the destruction of the aforementioned nations in Deuteronomy 7 that had ripened in iniquity. It appears that God’s judgements of destruction on nations ripened in iniquity are easier to swallow as long as natural disasters are the agents of destruction rather than armed forces assembled by the Lord.

 

Edited March 6, 2024 by teddyaware

[The Nehor]

36 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

 

Mostly because it is hard to imagine that God thought a bit of ethnic cleansing would be good for the souls of his chosen people.