How to reconcile mixed messages from The Church

[smac97]

Resources from the Church on trans issues:

What is the Church’s position on transitioning?

Quote

“Church leaders counsel against elective medical or surgical intervention for the purpose of attempting to transition to the opposite gender of a person’s birth sex (‘sex reassignment’). Leaders advise that taking these actions will be cause for Church membership restrictions.

“Leaders also counsel against social transitioning. A social transition includes changing dress or grooming, or changing a name or pronouns, to present oneself as other than his or her birth sex. Leaders advise that those who socially transition will experience some Church membership restrictions for the duration of this transition.

“Restrictions include receiving or exercising the priesthood, receiving or using a temple recommend, and receiving some Church callings. Although some privileges of Church membership are restricted, other Church participation is welcomed.

“Transgender individuals who do not pursue medical, surgical, or social transition to the opposite gender and are worthy may receive Church callings, temple recommends, and temple ordinances.

“Some children, youth, and adults are prescribed hormone therapy by a licensed medical professional to ease gender dysphoria or reduce suicidal thoughts. Before a person begins such therapy, it is important that he or she (and the parents of a minor) understands the potential risks and benefits. If these members are not attempting to transition to the opposite gender and are worthy, they may receive Church callings, temple recommends, and temple ordinances.

“If a member decides to change his or her preferred name or pronouns of address, the name preference may be noted in the preferred name field on the membership record. The person may be addressed by the preferred name in the ward” (“Transgender Individuals,” General Handbook: Serving in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 38.6.21).

“The Church does not take a position on the causes of people identifying themselves as transgender” (General Handbook, 38.6.21).

"Transgender individuals who do not pursue medical, surgical, or social transition to the opposite gender and are worthy may receive Church callings, temple recommends, and temple ordinances."

"If these members are not attempting to transition to the opposite gender and are worthy, they may receive Church callings, temple recommends, and temple ordinances."

So those who do "pursue" one or more of these things can run into some limitations.  From section 38.6.23 of the Handbook:

Quote

Most Church participation and some priesthood ordinances are gender neutral. Transgender persons may be baptized and confirmed as outlined in 38.2.8.9. They may also partake of the sacrament and receive priesthood blessings. However, priesthood ordination and temple ordinances are received according to biological sex at birth.
...
Circumstances vary greatly from unit to unit and person to person. Members and leaders counsel together and with the Lord. Area Presidencies will help local leaders sensitively address individual situations. Bishops counsel with the stake president. Stake presidents and mission presidents must seek counsel from the Area Presidency (see 32.6.3 and 32.6.3.1).

And from Section 38.2.8.9:

Quote

Persons Who Identify as Transgender

A transgender person may be baptized and confirmed if he or she is not pursuing elective medical or surgical intervention to attempt to transition to the opposite of his or her biological sex at birth (“sex reassignment”).

Mission presidents should counsel with the Area Presidency to address individual situations with sensitivity and Christlike love.

A person who has completed sex reassignment through elective medical or surgical intervention must have First Presidency approval to be baptized. The mission president may request this approval if he has interviewed the person, found him or her to be otherwise worthy, and can recommend baptism. The person will not be able to receive the priesthood, a temple recommend, or some Church callings. However, he or she can participate in the Church in other ways.

For more information, see 38.6.23.

And here: If I have already transitioned, am I welcome at church?

Quote

All of Heavenly Father’s children are welcome at church. If you have chosen to transition, you may still be eligible for baptism and are welcome at Church meetings. See “Transgender Individuals,” 38.6.23, and “Persons Who Identify as Transgender,” 38.2.8.10, in the General Handbook.

Sister Michelle Craig taught: “Latter-day Saints come in many shapes and sizes, but ‘all are alike unto God’—‘black and white, bond and free, male and female,’ single and married, rich and poor, young and old, lifelong member and recent convert. No matter who you are or what you’re dealing with, you are invited to the Lord’s table” (“Spiritual Capacity,” Ensign or Liahona, Nov. 2019, 21).

Has the Church deviated from any of this in relation to the person in the video?  I'm not seeing any evidence of this.

Understanding Yourself

Quote

If I have already transitioned, am I welcome at church?

 

All of Heavenly Father’s children are welcome at church. If you have chosen to transition, you may still be eligible for baptism and are welcome at Church meetings. See “Transgender Individuals,” 38.6.23, and “Persons Who Identify as Transgender,” 38.2.8.10, in the General Handbook.

Sister Michelle Craig taught: “Latter-day Saints come in many shapes and sizes, but ‘all are alike unto God’—'black and white, bond and free, male and female,’ single and married, rich and poor, young and old, lifelong member and recent convert. No matter who you are or what you’re dealing with, you are invited to the Lord’s table” (“Spiritual Capacity,” Ensign or Liahona, Nov. 2019, 21).

Transgender: Love, Inclusion, and Respect for All of God’s Children / Supporting

Quote

How can I support someone who identifies as transgender?

 

Elder Ronald A. Rasband taught that people who experience transgender feelings “need to be encircled in the arms of their Savior and know they are loved. So often the Lord calls on us; He expects us to be His welcoming, loving arms. We need to encourage their friends to do the same” (“Jesus Christ Is the Answer” [evening with a General Authority, Feb. 8, 2019]).

Talking about feelings of gender incongruence can be difficult and confusing. Your loved one may not know how to talk to you about it. You may sometimes feel inadequate. Although you may not always know how to respond to the struggles someone else faces, you will not regret reaching out with love and understanding.

If you overreact, get angry, or say things you regret, don’t be discouraged. This may be hard for you as well. This is one moment in a lifetime of conversations you will have with your loved one. If you feel you should apologize for your actions, do it.

If you are worried or feel grief in this situation, know that you are not alone. You may worry that the future you envisioned for your family is slipping away. The process of grieving may take time. (See “Grief,” Gospel Topics, topics.ChurchofJesusChrist.org.)

Sister Bonnie H. Cordon explained: “We all want to be recognized. We want to matter, to be remembered, and to feel loved…. We can listen and love without judgment and offer hope and help with the discerning guidance of the Holy Ghost…. Whether our sheep are strong or weak, rejoicing or in anguish, we can make certain that no one walks alone (“Becoming a Shepherd,” Ensign or Liahona, Nov. 2018, 74, 76).

This doesn't seem to address the issue of whether members of the Church should endorse / encourage / celebrate someone considering "medical, surgical, or social transition."  It only seems to presuppose that members will not do this, but might err in expressing it ("{i}f you overreact, get angry, or say things you regret...").

This part is helpful:

Quote

How do I respect differences?

 

If you have family members or friends who self-identify as transgender, pray for the love of Christ as you strive to follow the example of the Savior and love them. The commandment to love one another includes those who don’t experience the world the same way we do.

As President Dallin H. Oaks taught: “In so many relationships and circumstances in life, we must live with differences. Where vital, our side of these differences should not be denied or abandoned, but as followers of Christ we should live peacefully with others who do not share our values or accept the teachings upon which they are based. The Father’s plan of salvation, which we know by prophetic revelation, places us in a mortal circumstance where we are to keep His commandments. That includes loving our neighbors of different cultures and beliefs as He has loved us. As a Book of Mormon prophet taught, we must press forward, having ‘a love of God and of all men’ (2 Nephi 31:20)” (“Loving Others and Living with Differences,” Ensign or Liahona, Nov. 2014, 28).

...

Is professional counseling helpful for people who self-identify as transgender or for their families?

 

If you have difficulties with any area of your life, professional counseling may help you understand and respond in healthy ways. Life’s situations often have several contributing factors and it may be difficult to view ourselves objectively. A professional counselor may be able to provide helpful insight.

When it comes to gender-related concerns, you should exercise great care in selecting a therapist who respects your values and does not seek to impose one particular outcome. Therapists should respect your right to determine your values and goals for your life.

Also see “Transgender Individuals,” General Handbook: Serving in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 38.6.23.

One of the things I struggle with in terms of the idea of endorsing / encouraging / celebrating someone considering medical/surgical transition is what might be called the "indirect eugenics"-type consequences.  Straight-up eugenics has often involved efforts to remove or reduce an "undesirable's" ability to reproduce, sometimes with and sometimes without the consent of the individual.  Margaret Sanger was so entrenched in the philosophy that even Planned Parenthood has had to disavow her.  The instances of compulsory sterilization are too numerous to address here.  

We seem to be coming to a "common knowledge" realization that "{t}ransgender individuals who undergo gender-affirming medical or surgical therapies are at risk for infertility," and that "{h}ormonal and surgical treatments for transgender people have a devastating effect on the possibility for these patients to reproduce."  To endorse these procedures, then, seems to be an endorsement of de facto eugenics in practice (though not in specific intent).  This becomes especially tragic for those who elect to medically/surgically transition while young, as they might not foresee a down-the-road desire to have children.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

What is the mixed message from the top, for example, from the Handbook on baptizing transgendered people?

Is the policy confused (doesn't hang together well), or is the confusion a personal, subjective reaction to a policy that is internally consistent?

The issue and apparent contradiction isn't with baptizing transgender people, but with how the church identifies a male at birth as female on church records.  I don't think he likes that the church is bending to their preferred gender, given how they have taught about the eternal nature of gender.   He points out correctly that a baptized member would be disciplined for such behavior and that the church would never identify their altered gender identify on church records.   But if they transition before baptism, show no evidence of remorse/repentance and are even openly proud about being transgender - they get to have their change in gender listed and recognized by the church as a gender that is different from their sex at birth on church records. 

[The Nehor]

Crying that ‘all are alike unto God’ and including “single and married” (lol) and “male and female” (LOL!) is silly considering how differently we treat these groups.

Using that to buttress the claim that transgender people are the same as everyone else when we deny them the ordinances of exaltation makes that claim of equality look like some kind of perverse joke.

Edited January 25, 2024 by The Nehor

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Maestrophil said:

I guess I will have to peruse the policy better to see - and if it doesn't clarify what gender they should be on records once baptized, then I suppose no official policy has been violated - though a 'doctrine' or gender being fixed and eternal seems to be contradicted.

Please let me know what you find in the policy.

How is a 'doctrine' on fixed and eternal gender contradicted?

[LoudmouthMormon]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

11 hours ago, Joshua said:

The LGB Movement isn't the same as the T Movement. The church can't give up ground to the T movement. If they do, the church will lose all credibility. 

Back when it was called the LGB community transgender and other people who now identify as queer were included. They were considered to fall under the B umbrella. The T is not a group isolated from the rest of the community.

Yeah, I've tried hard to glean a little about the LGBTQIA+ community, and you can't by any stretch of the imagination call it a uniform cohesive community where everyone is united by shared core beliefs.  It's a little more spicy than that. 

From my perspective:

I guess first and foremost, there are real people with real body dysmorphia or gender dysphoria.  Mental issues.  There are also a host of rare, but real conditions (biological, structural, hormonal, chromosomal, and genetic), that might, if severe enough, might make it hard for folks to figure out where they fit in a strict binary.  Physical issues.   Those folks are all, like me, inheritors of a divine birthright, offspring of Deity.  Lots of love to these folks dealing with these issues that can strike to the core of one's identity.  When I think of "trans" folks, I think in these terms. 

So I think about what I see as a difference between what I would consider these "real" trans folks, and what I'd consider people who have accepted and adopted relatively new and growing cultural understandings of gender.   Perhaps not new, but the cultural adoption of the notions is certainly new.    I'd guess for every one diagnosed person dealing with a medical or mental issue, there are 100-1000 people who have adopted these various notions of radical gender theory.  I notice exponential growth in youth adoption of this notion.  I hear explanations like "it's always been here, but now that people can learn about it, they realize it's always been them."  I worry a more realistic explanation might look like "We take young humans, during tumultuous and confusing years where identities are formed, when their maturity centers in their brains are still developing, and we insert notions of aligning with whatever gender you feel like."   I think of this in strongly negative terms.  You could say I believe our youth are being polluted by shifting winds of cultural decay into believing a bunch of harmful crap about themselves and/or others, and the consequences can be anything from humorous to annoying to life-endingly dire.  Everyone is an inheritor of a divine birthright, and offspring of Deity.  Everyone deserves love, and I am in fact commanded to love everyone.  But I strongly, strongly disagree with radical gender theory.  And I try to participate in the public debate about it to put my opinion out there.

In the last 2-3 years, I've been fascinated to discover unlikely groups of people who agree with me:

1. Feminists of all stripes seem to be waking up in increasing numbers to how their gains over the last 50 years are being threatened by radical gender theory.  Women's spaces, women's safety are threatened.  Women's accomplishments are increasingly brushed aside, ignored, taken away.  They tell me they love and welcome their trans women.  But for every real one they encounter and embrace, they encounter umpteen predators taking advantage of changing opinions, policies, and laws, in order to gain access to women for their nefarious ends.  These feminists talk a lot about the sexual abuse and pregnancy rates at all women's prisons.  They talk a lot about Lia Thomas and other post-puberty transitioned women entering competitive sports and immediately dominating in ways no biological woman can ever hope to compete against.  They tell me about MMA bouts between a woman and a trans woman.  How they tried to watch with an attitude of acceptance and inclusion, only to be forced to admit they were watching a man beat the hell out of a woman in front of a cheering crowd. 

2. The LGB end of the LGBTQIA+ party has a growing number of folks protesting not trans people, but radical gender theorists.  The phrase "gay erasure" comes from LGB folks, referring to the incredible social pressure on confused or questioning youth to accept gender theory and transition.  Your tomboyish girls and effeminate boys are told they're not really girls, not really boys.  They're taught, sometimes outright pressured, to ignore biological reality and the possibility of being gay or lesbian.  The notion is pushed on them: They not girls who might like girls, they are trans.  They're not boys who might be gay, they're really women.  They are told social, medical, surgical transition all might be the way to go.  

3. I've lost count of all the "detransitioners" I've encountered over the last several years.  People who (often as youth) bought into gender theory, transitioned, and then realized they made a mistake.  Some pretty tragic stories here where medical or surgical transitioning is part of the story.  A lot of "I bought into a lie and now I'm a lifelong medical patient who may never be able to have children" stories out there.  But even if it was just social, they tell stories of ostracism, lost friends, bullying, sometimes outright violence from the gender-theory-believing folks in their lives.  You no longer think you're trans?  You've been brainwashed.  You're evil for trying to make us think you were something you're not.  More than one study out there saying most kids confused about their gender just resolve their concern and align with their biology by age 18-20.  Or measuring gender-confused kids, and finding most of 'em are gay, not trans.  So many stories from kids, and their parents were told "You can either have a living daughter or a gay son."  There's less of this happening now, partially due to detrans pushback. 

4. I've encountered maybe half a dozen trans folks speaking out against the more radical elements of gender theory.  Caitlin Jenner was the first I encountered, speaking out publicly about how biological men in women's sports was inherently unfair.  The rest I found are less known, more social-media personality types.  "I'm a woman, but I'll always be male."  Lots of rage about medical/surgical harm done to youth.  A lot of TikTok stitching of biological-male-trans-woman claims of having period pains, and biological-female-trans-man claims of how they suddenly like flannel and football.

I saw the fever break in 2022.  In 2023, I saw growing pushback (sometimes rational, sometimes over-the-top harmful) by society, politicians, talking heads, content creators, social media influencers.  It was a breath of fresh air to see TikTok millennials starting to see how stupid the gender theory excesses had become.  I'm hoping here in 2024, there'll be less madness, more sanity, less anger and hatred, more love and smarts.

Just my opinion.  Your mileage may vary.

Edited January 25, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[california boy]

31 minutes ago, pogi said:

The issue and apparent contradiction isn't with baptizing transgender people, but with how the church identifies a male at birth as female on church records.  I don't think he likes that the church is bending to their preferred gender, given how they have taught about the eternal nature of gender.   He points out correctly that a baptized member would be disciplined for such behavior and that the church would never identify their altered gender identify on church records.   But if they transition before baptism, show no evidence of remorse/repentance and are even openly proud about being transgender - they get to have their change in gender listed and recognized by the church as a gender that is different from their sex at birth on church records. 

What if a member resigns his membership, is excommunicated, then transitions.  Can he now be baptized and have his preferred gender on Church records?

Or what if half of a gay couple transitioned, could he/she then have a civil marriage to his male partner?  Would the Church recognize their marriage??

[LoudmouthMormon]

10 minutes ago, california boy said:

What if a member resigns his membership, is excommunicated, then transitions.  Can he now be baptized and have his preferred gender on Church records?

Or what if half of a gay couple transitioned, could he/she then have a civil marriage to his male partner?  Would the Church recognize their marriage??

I suppose we'd have to start with finding someone like that who wants to be part of the church.  I've encountered a couple folks with such stories, they tend to be happy in their ex-mo life.

[Maestrophil]

20 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Please let me know what you find in the policy.

How is a 'doctrine' on fixed and eternal gender contradicted?

No mention of how to handle a transitioned person who had transitioned prior to baptism on the church records after baptism - so no direct violation there. 🙂

Gender is eternal is what was preached as doctrine in the past few conferences - yet if the baptized person was born male and now is on the records of the church as female, is that not conceding that gender can change?

 

[Maestrophil]

13 minutes ago, california boy said:

What if a member resigns his membership, is excommunicated, then transitions.  Can he now be baptized and have his preferred gender on Church records?

Or what if half of a gay couple transitioned, could he/she then have a civil marriage to his male partner?  Would the Church recognize their marriage??

Great questions!

 

[mfbukowski]

22 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

I watched this video and resonated with the confusion of The Church approving the baptism of a trans woman as a woman of record etc. Those actions conflict in my mind with messages of eternal gender and mariage from the pulpit.  
 

Are LGBTQ+ folks the current version of what blacks and the priesthood were pre- 1978? Is the proclamation wrong?  Not sure how to feel

 

 

 

Just stick to this, I hope your dad is doing well, if I may speak symbolically, "Mr Furry with a bottle for those lost in the avalanche of life" and a Pole.

IF I understood him properly 🐶

I'd like to propose a new Hymn  by Crosby and Nash.

But it breaks the rules, probably

https://g.co/kgs/xrxwf6m

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

I haven't watched the video but is there any chance she was born intersex?   That could explain why the church felt comfortable putting her gender as female when she was raised male.

That's a good question, but even so, I wonder if the inborn feeling of being the wrong sex could suffice.

[CV75]

21 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

No mention of how to handle a transitioned person who had transitioned prior to baptism on the church records after baptism - so no direct violation there. 🙂

Gender is eternal is what was preached as doctrine in the past few conferences - yet if the baptized person was born male and now is on the records of the church as female, is that not conceding that gender can change?

 

So there seems to be some flexibility in how the sex designation for the Church record is handled for transitioned converts. This may be covered in the paragraph beginning with “Circumstances vary greatly from unit to unit and person to person.”

I see a difference between eternal gender and a physical (digital) record entry. The first is preserved and expressed as well as can be expected, and in this case imperfectly, in a mortal estate. The second is for church administration and participation during this mortal estate. The first is in the records in heaven, and the second is in the records on earth. First Presidency approval is for the earthly record only since they do not administer the Church that existed before or to exist after mortality. The Holy Spirit of Promise needs to harmonize and ratify the records in earth and in heaven.

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I'd like to propose a new Hymn  by Crosby and Nash.

But it breaks the rules, probably

https://g.co/kgs/xrxwf6m

You should have suggested its addition, but I feel copyright issues would have gotten in the way.

[bluebell]

31 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

That's a good question, but even so, I wonder if the inborn feeling of being the wrong sex could suffice.

From what I've read, as far as the church is concerned it's not usually enough.  I think that's why this specific instance is causing some confusion.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

The issue and apparent contradiction isn't with baptizing transgender people, but with how the church identifies a male at birth as female on church records.  I don't think he likes that the church is bending to their preferred gender, given how they have taught about the eternal nature of gender.   He points out correctly that a baptized member would be disciplined for such behavior and that the church would never identify their altered gender identify on church records.   But if they transition before baptism, show no evidence of remorse/repentance and are even openly proud about being transgender - they get to have their change in gender listed and recognized by the church as a gender that is different from their sex at birth on church records. 

I’m not sure if the record entry reflects a “bending to their preferred gender”, but rather an exercise of the keys to administer the earthly kingdom in a manner that ensures a level of Church participation commensurate with the individual’s decisions in this life that seemingly (on paper, at least – e.g., birth certificate vs. driver’s license/medical record vs. oral declaration as reflected in the interviews and eventual membership record) conflict with eternal identity. When it comes to member discipline, we are disciplined by the light we possess and convey throughout our conversion or lifelong membership participation as the case may be. I think this and record entry fall under the paragraph that begins with, “Circumstances vary greatly from unit to unit and person to person.” I know this is a thread about how confusing this can be, but I take that to be a more personal subjective experience than a function of record-keeping policies.

 Posted 5 hours ago

 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Crying that ‘all are alike unto God’ and including “single and married” (lol) and “male and female” (LOL!) is silly considering how differently we treat these groups.

Using that to buttress the claim that transgender people are the same as everyone else when we deny them the ordinances of exaltation makes that claim of equality look like some kind of perverse joke.

God treats us differently, too, even though all are alike unto Him -- both take place in their own way. We all have the same Savior and one blood, but different kingdoms of glory, different times and places to live in, circumstances, etc. 

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

What if a member resigns his membership, is excommunicated, then transitions.  Can he now be baptized and have his preferred gender on Church records?

Or what if half of a gay couple transitioned, could he/she then have a civil marriage to his male partner?  Would the Church recognize their marriage??

There's an app for that!  These circumstances, as they arise, I believe would be covered by the paragraph beginning with “Circumstances vary greatly from unit to unit and person to person, ”in the Handbook.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

You should have suggested its addition, but I feel copyright issues would have gotten in the way.

More than that!

Sorry, I was not serious, though I think it can logically be seen as compatible with LDS doctrine

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Yeah, I've tried hard to glean a little about the LGBTQIA+ community, and you can't by any stretch of the imagination call it a uniform cohesive community where everyone is united by shared core beliefs.  It's a little more spicy than that. 

A large group of people with diversity in it. Surely you jest!

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I guess first and foremost, there are real people with real body dysmorphia or gender dysphoria.  Mental issues.  There are also a host of rare, but real conditions (biological, structural, hormonal, chromosomal, and genetic), that might, if severe enough, might make it hard for folks to figure out where they fit in a strict binary.  Physical issues.   Those folks are all, like me, inheritors of a divine birthright, offspring of Deity.  Lots of love to these folks dealing with these issues that can strike to the core of one's identity.  When I think of "trans" folks, I think in these terms. 

So first you have to identify the 'good ones'.

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

So I think about what I see as a difference between what I would consider these "real" trans folks, and what I'd consider people who have accepted and adopted relatively new and growing cultural understandings of gender.   Perhaps not new, but the cultural adoption of the notions is certainly new.    I'd guess for every one diagnosed person dealing with a medical or mental issue, there are 100-1000 people who have adopted these various notions of radical gender theory.  I notice exponential growth in youth adoption of this notion.  I hear explanations like "it's always been here, but now that people can learn about it, they realize it's always been them."  I worry a more realistic explanation might look like "We take young humans, during tumultuous and confusing years where identities are formed, when their maturity centers in their brains are still developing, and we insert notions of aligning with whatever gender you feel like."   I think of this in strongly negative terms.  You could say I believe our youth are being polluted by shifting winds of cultural decay into believing a bunch of harmful crap about themselves and/or others, and the consequences can be anything from humorous to annoying to life-endingly dire.  Everyone is an inheritor of a divine birthright, and offspring of Deity.  Everyone deserves love, and I am in fact commanded to love everyone.  But I strongly, strongly disagree with radical gender theory.  And I try to participate in the public debate about it to put my opinion out there.

The average age for gender transition with hormones and/or surgery is 30. Making this about the vulnerable children is a common rhetorical tactic but we can stop pretending that most people pursuing a gender transition are underage. They are the exception to the general rule. Fixating on "harm to children" is a normal moral panic tactic even if it bears no resemblance to reality. Blood libel, the satanic panic, they are recruiting kids to make them gay, and now they are recruiting kids to make them transgender. No points for originality.

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

In the last 2-3 years, I've been fascinated to discover unlikely groups of people who agree with me:

Oh boy, here we go.

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

1. Feminists of all stripes seem to be waking up in increasing numbers to how their gains over the last 50 years are being threatened by radical gender theory.  Women's spaces, women's safety are threatened.  Women's accomplishments are increasingly brushed aside, ignored, taken away.  They tell me they love and welcome their trans women.  But for every real one they encounter and embrace, they encounter umpteen predators taking advantage of changing opinions, policies, and laws, in order to gain access to women for their nefarious ends.  These feminists talk a lot about the sexual abuse and pregnancy rates at all women's prisons.  They talk a lot about Lia Thomas and other post-puberty transitioned women entering competitive sports and immediately dominating in ways no biological woman can ever hope to compete against.  They tell me about MMA bouts between a woman and a trans woman.  How they tried to watch with an attitude of acceptance and inclusion, only to be forced to admit they were watching a man beat the hell out of a woman in front of a cheering crowd. 

And really this whole thing is hurting women because.....women's sports. I keep waiting for these champions of women's sports to start demanding equal gender funding in schools and turning out in droves to attend women's sporting events. They don't though. A cynical person might think they don't actually care about women's sports and just want a rhetorical hammer to villainize a small minority of people.

Also a lot of the stories about transgender women destroying and dominating cis women are yanked out of context or are made up. I think my favorite example is Glenique Frank who was a transgender woman who competed in the London marathon, finished ahead of 14,000 other women, and won a medal. That was the story. Then you dig into the details. This was the amateur competition, not the elite Marathon (which does actually exclude transgender women). She is 54 years old, participated in the 50-54 year old category, and got 583rd by age category, and 6,171st amongst all women, and 21,617th by overall. The medal was a participation thing. Hordes of people were demanding she return her ill-gotten medal and people screamed about it. She volunteered to surrender her ranking to the person behind her. We got the same thing about an MMA fight and another about a soccer match and on and on.

There are going to be serious discussions about women's professional sports hopefully at some point but this mindless hysteria is a red herring. We have states passing extensive transgender legislation about High School sports teams in states where no one can identify anyone it would impact. It is virtue signaling and a big "not welcome here" sign to transgender people living there. Good job everyone!

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

2. The LGB end of the LGBTQIA+ party has a growing number of folks protesting not trans people, but radical gender theorists.  The phrase "gay erasure" comes from LGB folks, referring to the incredible social pressure on confused or questioning youth to accept gender theory and transition.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

That is not what gay erasure means. It is often about the uniqueness of gay male culture being subsumed into the larger lgbt community. It is also when some group tries to argue that gay people don't exist. There is also lesbian erasure, bisexual erasure, transgender erasure, asexual erasure, straight erasure, and more. Mostly it is about internal lgbt discussions. In the bisexual community gay erasure shows up every so often when some well-meaning person tries to argue that everyone is bisexual.

Are there people out there using "gay erasure" like this? Yeah, but it is not coming from LGB folks. It comes from our enemies though they like to put it in the mouths of their token 'useful idiots'.

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Your tomboyish girls and effeminate boys are told they're not really girls, not really boys.  They're taught, sometimes outright pressured, to ignore biological reality and the possibility of being gay or lesbian.  The notion is pushed on them: They not girls who might like girls, they are trans.  They're not boys who might be gay, they're really women.  They are told social, medical, surgical transition all might be the way to go.  

This is not a thing that happens. This is especially infuriating since it is just the same rhetoric previously used about how gay people were converting straight kids. It is the same recycled lie. The same people telling us that we were converting straight people are now telling us that we are the victims and are all being converted. Do you realize how STUPID that sounds to us? Especially since the people who are supposedly converting us are often literally our friends. This is not being pushed on people. The lgbt community in general loves tomboyish girls and effeminate boys. We openly tell men that if they want to wear dresses to go for it and no one is going to tell someone that means they have to or should transition.

We aren't the target audience for the message though. We know that if they defeat the transgender threat we are next. This is just rhetorical food to convince straight people that the lgbt community is fractured and that being transphobic is only targeting a small part of the community.

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

3. I've lost count of all the "detransitioners" I've encountered over the last several years.  People who (often as youth) bought into gender theory, transitioned, and then realized they made a mistake.  Some pretty tragic stories here where medical or surgical transitioning is part of the story.  A lot of "I bought into a lie and now I'm a lifelong medical patient who may never be able to have children" stories out there.  But even if it was just social, they tell stories of ostracism, lost friends, bullying, sometimes outright violence from the gender-theory-believing folks in their lives.  You no longer think you're trans?  You've been brainwashed.  You're evil for trying to make us think you were something you're not.  More than one study out there saying most kids confused about their gender just resolve their concern and align with their biology by age 18-20.  Or measuring gender-confused kids, and finding most of 'em are gay, not trans.  So many stories from kids, and their parents were told "You can either have a living daughter or a gay son."  There's less of this happening now, partially due to detrans pushback. 

Bovine excrement. You've lost count of how many you have encountered? How are you running into them all? Do you hang out with a lot of transgender people who are willing to share with you their deeply emotional life stories about transitioning? Or do you mean you have been fed stories online which seems more likely? There aren't a lot of those stories out there. There are a few that are endlessly repeated and a lot more that are just plain made up. You are confusing dysphoria studies with a genuine desire to transition.

If the number of transgender people pursuing medical transition is increasing exponentially (as you said) then the number of people seeking to detransition thinking it was a mistake should be exponentially increasing as well. You can't have it both ways.

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

4. I've encountered maybe half a dozen trans folks speaking out against the more radical elements of gender theory.  Caitlin Jenner was the first I encountered, speaking out publicly about how biological men in women's sports was inherently unfair.  The rest I found are less known, more social-media personality types.  "I'm a woman, but I'll always be male."  Lots of rage about medical/surgical harm done to youth.  A lot of TikTok stitching of biological-male-trans-woman claims of having period pains, and biological-female-trans-man claims of how they suddenly like flannel and football.

SIX WHOLE PEOPLE???? OH NO!!!!!!

And there are dumb TikTok videos made by kids (and adults) out there? No way!

Also transgender men can't have flannel. Bisexuals claimed it years ago back when we defined our culture as lemon bars, frogs, flannel, cuffed jeans, and sitting in incredibly weird ways. They have to also identify as bisexual or they can't love flannel. It is in the rules.

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I saw the fever break in 2022.  In 2023, I saw growing pushback (sometimes rational, sometimes over-the-top harmful) by society, politicians, talking heads, content creators, social media influencers.  It was a breath of fresh air to see TikTok millennials starting to see how stupid the gender theory excesses had become.  I'm hoping here in 2024, there'll be less madness, more sanity, less anger and hatred, more love and smarts.

I doubt it.

It is worth noting that in my admittedly anecdotal check that Reddit NSFW subs that are for porn and suggestive images have about twice as many subscribers as the community and support websites for transgender people have when you add them all up. There are more people fetishizing them and using them for gratification than there are transgender people seeking community and support. Transgender people in general HATE this. Most find it dehumanizing and gross to be desired primarily because they are transgender.

So who are these depraved weirdos seeking out gender ambiguous smut?

https://lawsuit.org/general-law/republicans-have-an-obsession-with-transgender-pornography/

Oh.....oh my.

Seems lust and hatred can coexist in a lot of people and even have the same target. That can't be right. How would that even work? One would think we would have seen this before.

Millions of women roll their eyes and say, "Did you miss the whole misogyny thing?"

Oh yeah, right. I guess the biblical story of Amnon and Tamar probably applies here with the whole lust for the forbidden and then the subsequent hatred once you have it.

The problem is not with the transgender people.

 

[The Nehor]

52 minutes ago, CV75 said:

God treats us differently, too, even though all are alike unto Him -- both take place in their own way. We all have the same Savior and one blood, but different kingdoms of glory, different times and places to live in, circumstances, etc. 

Yeah, but this is in the context of calling everyone unto Him and then telling some groups to keep a bit more distance. Kind of undermines the professed equality of the message.

[LoudmouthMormon]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Making this about the vulnerable children is a common rhetorical tactic but we can stop pretending that most people pursuing a gender transition are underage. They are the exception to the general rule. Fixating on "harm to children" is a normal moral panic tactic even if it bears no resemblance to reality. Blood libel, the satanic panic, they are recruiting kids to make them gay, and now they are recruiting kids to make them transgender. 

I said nothing about "most people" transgender being youth.  I'm not fixating, I'm covering a problem with radical gender ideology.  You seem to think I'm having some sort of blanket issue with transgender folk.  I tried to be clear that I'm not.  I'm having an issue with one particular subset of the T in LGBTQIA+.   Your immediate leap to strawmanning things shows the overall weakness of your defensive reaction.  We're talking about how to do right by people in general and children when it involves them.  Try harder.  Dismissive insults doesn't qualify as public discourse. 

 

Quote

And really this whole thing is hurting women because.....women's sports. I keep waiting for these champions of women's sports to start demanding equal gender funding in schools and turning out in droves to attend women's sporting events. They don't though. A cynical person might think they don't actually care about women's sports and just want a rhetorical hammer to villainize a small minority of people.

Not my argument, not my circus, not my monkeys.  My daughters are grown and not athletic.  You seem to be brushing aside that I'm hearing this from feminists, and not the conservative ones.  Yeah, I gave no links.  You wouldn't accept them anyway, given your comments about "dumb TikTok videos made by kids (and adults)".   Unless you're someone, you're no one?  I've been hearing feminists pleading to have their voices, stories, opinions, and lives matter for the 35 years I've been paying attention.  But you dismiss an entire subset of them out of hand, because you disagree with what they have to say.   We're talking about how to do right by people in general and children when it involves them.  Try harder.  Dismissive insults about "mindless hysteria" and "virtue signaling" don't qualify as public discourse. 

 

Quote

You have no idea what you are talking about.

That is not what gay erasure means. [...]  Are there people out there using "gay erasure" like this? Yeah, but it is not coming from LGB folks. It comes from our enemies though they like to put it in the mouths of their token 'useful idiots'.

Again, I'm hearing this from folks claiming to be LGB on various social media.  Twitter and Tiktok and the like.  Ok sure, gay erasure also means those things you mention.  But again, I'm hearing it used by queer folk, when talking about the incredible social pressure they've seen or personally experienced, usually as a youth, when trying to discover their identity.  Again, yeah, I gave no links.  Again, you wouldn't accept them anyway, given your comments about "dumb TikTok videos made by kids (and adults)".   Unless you're someone, you're no one?  I've been hearing LGB folk pleading to have their voices, stories, opinions, and lives matter for the 35 years I've been paying attention.  But you dismiss an entire subset of them out of hand, because you disagree with what they have to say.  Try harder. 

 

Quote

The lgbt community in general loves tomboyish girls and effeminate boys.

I agree totally.  As I tried to say above, and as I'll try again as clearly and explicitly as I can: I'm not complaining about LGB folk.  I'm not complaining about many TQIA+ folk.  I am complaining about radical gender theory, and those who espouse it.  And that's not everyone.  Not everyone in that community.  How many?  I dunno.  Like anyone,  I have only limited view into the wide and diverse community.  I've tried to find folks in real life to get to know.  There are endless ones to hear from online.   But yeah, the average member of that community, as you say, love their tomboyish girls and effeminate boys.  I wonder if you'll continue to characterize my statements about radical gender theory activists as an attack on the community in general.  If you do, perhaps I'll be able to be all righteous again and ask you to try harder on this point as well.

 

Quote

We openly tell men that if they want to wear dresses to go for it and no one is going to tell someone that means they have to or should transition.

And the ones who relay personal stories of experiencing this phenomenon don't count, right?  Again, yeah, I gave no links.  Again, you wouldn't accept them anyway, given your comments about "dumb TikTok videos made by kids (and adults)".   Unless you're someone, you're no one?  I've been hearing LGB folk pleading to have their voices, stories, opinions, and lives matter for the 35 years I've been paying attention.  But you dismiss an entire subset of them out of hand, because you disagree with what they have to say.  Try harder.  They exist.  They deserve to be acknowledged as real people, and their lived experiences should matter to you.

 

Quote

You've lost count of how many you have encountered? How are you running into them all? Do you hang out with a lot of transgender people who are willing to share with you their deeply emotional life stories about transitioning? Or do you mean you have been fed stories online which seems more likely? There aren't a lot of those stories out there. There are a few that are endlessly repeated and a lot more that are just plain made up. [...]

SIX WHOLE PEOPLE???? OH NO!!!!!!

I'm running into them online.  Twitter, TikTok, Discord mostly.   Have you not encountered the never-ending tidal wave of people going online and sharing with the world their deeply emotional life stories?  Well, trans folks are hardly an exception.  Yeah, there are always opposing forces grabbing stories and turning them into clubs to be used on those who disagree.  That's a human thing we all do.   But yeah, I've fed my algorithm to hear more from these folks, because I don't like echo chambers, and I like to learn from the source.    But be careful about whiplash - you move pretty quickly from criticizing the plethora of detrans voices I hear on one topic, to criticizing the 6 or so trans folks.  I'm telling you my experience listening to people online.  

 

Quote

If the number of transgender people pursuing medical transition is increasing exponentially (as you said) then the number of people seeking to detransition thinking it was a mistake should be exponentially increasing as well. You can't have it both ways.

I'd say so.  From what I can tell, most folks who transition as adults stay that way.  A lower percentage who transition as youth stay that way.  But yeah, in 2019 I knew one detransitioner, in 2020 I heard from 3 more.  In 2021 like 10 or more.  Yep, exponential.  Very small numbers, but exponential.  

Back in August 2023, we had this exchange: 

On 8/5/2023 at 8:20 PM, The Nehor said:

On 8/5/2023 at 7:21 PM, LoudmouthMormon said:

Chloe Cole is an autistic individual.  She is a real human.  She deserves to not have her lived experience ignored/dismissed by people who would have their worldview threatened if she really does exist, and really does have the experiences she claims to have experienced.  As someone who claims to value marginalized people in greater risk of harm, please do better.

Patrick Mitchell is an individual.  He is a real human.  He deserves to not have his lived experience ignored/dismissed by people who would have their worldview threatened if he really does exist, and really does have the experiences he claims to have experienced.  As someone who claims to value marginalized people at greater risk of harm, please do better.

Zahra Cooper  is an individual with aspergers.  He is a real human.  He deserves to not have his lived experience ignored/dismissed by people who would have their worldview threatened if he really does exist, and really does have the experiences he claims to have experienced.  As someone who claims to value marginalized people at greater risk of harm, please do better.

You can credibly claim most don't detransition.  You can say " You might do this because you lost your insurance or because you are around unsupportive family or because you are battling your insurance company or you move and can't find a doctor willing to treat dysphoria after your move or lots of other reasons."  But how can anyone take what you say seriously, when you refuse to admit that people with stories that threaten your ideology, even exist?

Sometimes kids change their minds.  Sometimes kids get things wrong about their self-identity.  Just because a minor believes a thing about themselves, doesn't mean they'll feel that way the next year, next month, even the next day.   Please admit to that reality.

My fault. You were responding to a typo I made. I meant that detransitioning is not “usually” done because someone decided they weren’t transgender. It is a low single digit percentage.

Back in August, you seemed to acknowledge these people were real.  Now you're back to dismissing the existence of 6 people.   I'll repeat my repeated repetitive request: We're talking about how to do right by people in general and children when it involves them.  Try harder.  People, even in small numbers, have value.  Their lived experience shouldn't be brushed aside.  Even if they're in the minority, as detransitioners are compared to the larger number of trans folks.

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Sorry, I was not serious, though I think it can logically be seen as compatible with LDS doctrine

I wasn’t either though I think it would be fun having a few such songs in the new Hymnbook just to keep people on their toes, lol

[Calm]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Millions of women roll their eyes and say, "Did you miss the whole misogyny thing?"

Interesting post, Nehor.  There was one item of Loudmouth I was hoping you would respond to because I have seen some stories on it as well and some claims.  It is something that is an important concern, much more for me than sports, and so I want to develop a realistic picture of the situation.  The more quality info of all types, the better.  Here is his statement:

Quote

These feminists talk a lot about the sexual abuse and pregnancy rates at all women's prisons. 

Do you have any specific info on this item?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Interesting post, Nehor.  There was one item of Loudmouth I was hoping you would respond to because I have seen some stories on it as well and some claims.  It is something that is an important concern, much more for me than sports, and so I want to develop a realistic picture of the situation.  The more quality info of all types, the better.  Here is his statement:

Do you have any specific info on this item?

I know of the New Jersey case where two women got pregnant by a transgender inmate. There were reports of something similar in California but I never saw anything that substantiated them. While that is obviously terrible women’s prisons (and prisons in general) in the United States are a disgrace. Our high incarceration rates are also a disgrace. Privatized prisons should be a national scandal.

Women are more likely to get pregnant from coercion or rape from corrections officers.

It is a potential problem in the future but I think it is pretty low on the list of priorities considering how screwed up everything else is. If you are asking me if I have an opinion on how to house transgender inmates I don’t and I don’t think I know enough to have a solution. I would rather prison reform focus on acceptable healthcare, required climate control in facilities (my own state is pure evil in this regard), protection of vulnerable populations (if you want to bring it back to lgbt individuals cases of “corrective rape” are far too common), and just not incarcerating so many people in general. Then there is the reality that fraud involving billions gets punished less than petty robbery. We are a mess.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I said nothing about "most people" transgender being youth.  I'm not fixating, I'm covering a problem with radical gender ideology.  You seem to think I'm having some sort of blanket issue with transgender folk.  I tried to be clear that I'm not.  I'm having an issue with one particular subset of the T in LGBTQIA+.   Your immediate leap to strawmanning things shows the overall weakness of your defensive reaction.  We're talking about how to do right by people in general and children when it involves them.  Try harder.  Dismissive insults doesn't qualify as public discourse. 

You divided transgender people into a small minority you are behind and then the vast majority were victims or perpetrators of a huge plot to corrupt the youth. You literally said that for every one 'legitimate case' there were 100-1000 who accept this bad ideology. That might technically be a subset of the T but don't pretend this is a nuanced targeting of a small portion of them.

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Not my argument, not my circus, not my monkeys.  My daughters are grown and not athletic.  You seem to be brushing aside that I'm hearing this from feminists, and not the conservative ones.  Yeah, I gave no links.  You wouldn't accept them anyway, given your comments about "dumb TikTok videos made by kids (and adults)".   Unless you're someone, you're no one?  I've been hearing feminists pleading to have their voices, stories, opinions, and lives matter for the 35 years I've been paying attention.  But you dismiss an entire subset of them out of hand, because you disagree with what they have to say.   We're talking about how to do right by people in general and children when it involves them.  Try harder.  Dismissive insults about "mindless hysteria" and "virtue signaling" don't qualify as public discourse. 

You wrote up that long piece and now are trying to backpedal with how much you don't care and trying to say my beef is with the feminists. If you mean TERFs then YEAH, I've got disagreements. I also know who is funding them. Calling them feminists is a bit of a stretch at this point.

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Again, I'm hearing this from folks claiming to be LGB on various social media.  Twitter and Tiktok and the like.  Ok sure, gay erasure also means those things you mention.  But again, I'm hearing it used by queer folk, when talking about the incredible social pressure they've seen or personally experienced, usually as a youth, when trying to discover their identity.  Again, yeah, I gave no links.  Again, you wouldn't accept them anyway, given your comments about "dumb TikTok videos made by kids (and adults)".   Unless you're someone, you're no one?  I've been hearing LGB folk pleading to have their voices, stories, opinions, and lives matter for the 35 years I've been paying attention.  But you dismiss an entire subset of them out of hand, because you disagree with what they have to say.  Try harder. 

You do know that the algorithims are just feeding you more of what you like to hear right? And a hearty dose of things that generate engagement which means controversial and nasty takes.

I know there are bisexual people convinced that gay and lesbian people deeply hate them because those are the kinds of videos the algorithims love to share. The video about the happy sapphic bi & lesbian couple is ignored but the gay guy who talks about who he will never date a bi man or the lesbian who spews hate at transgender people get lots of views and (angry) engagement. The system works! Can we burn it down now?

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I agree totally.  As I tried to say above, and as I'll try again as clearly and explicitly as I can: I'm not complaining about LGB folk.  I'm not complaining about many TQIA+ folk.  I am complaining about radical gender theory, and those who espouse it.  And that's not everyone.  Not everyone in that community.  How many?  I dunno.  Like anyone,  I have only limited view into the wide and diverse community.  I've tried to find folks in real life to get to know.  There are endless ones to hear from online.   But yeah, the average member of that community, as you say, love their tomboyish girls and effeminate boys.  I wonder if you'll continue to characterize my statements about radical gender theory activists as an attack on the community in general.  If you do, perhaps I'll be able to be all righteous again and ask you to try harder on this point as well.

You literally said that there were 100 to 1000 transgender people you thought were doing everything wrong for every one good one. The backpedaling is amazing.

Also radical gender theory is a catch-all term created by anti-LGBT types. It includes transgender ideology, gender identity, and academic queer theory. If you are fighting those you are fighting the whole LGBT community. So yes I will continue to characterize as an attack on the entire community because that is what the words you are saying mean. If you mean something else say something else.

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

And the ones who relay personal stories of experiencing this phenomenon don't count, right?  Again, yeah, I gave no links.  Again, you wouldn't accept them anyway, given your comments about "dumb TikTok videos made by kids (and adults)".   Unless you're someone, you're no one?  I've been hearing LGB folk pleading to have their voices, stories, opinions, and lives matter for the 35 years I've been paying attention.  But you dismiss an entire subset of them out of hand, because you disagree with what they have to say.  Try harder.  They exist.  They deserve to be acknowledged as real people, and their lived experiences should matter to you.

Point me to these people who are telling people that being gay or lesbian isn't real and it just means you are transgender and I will yell at them.

And no, I don't have to refute every one of these possibly fictional people who are so far into the T they are trying to eliminate the LGB. I don't have to think they have anything intelligent to add to the conversation because they don't.

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I'm running into them online.  Twitter, TikTok, Discord mostly.   Have you not encountered the never-ending tidal wave of people going online and sharing with the world their deeply emotional life stories?  Well, trans folks are hardly an exception.  Yeah, there are always opposing forces grabbing stories and turning them into clubs to be used on those who disagree.  That's a human thing we all do.   But yeah, I've fed my algorithm to hear more from these folks, because I don't like echo chambers, and I like to learn from the source.    But be careful about whiplash - you move pretty quickly from criticizing the plethora of detrans voices I hear on one topic, to criticizing the 6 or so trans folks.  I'm telling you my experience listening to people online.  

I spend a lot of time, probably too much, in queer spaces both in real life and online. I feel like I am getting whiplash as you try to discredit an ideology that buttresses the whole LGBT community while insisting you are not targeting the LGB parts. Then you insist that less than 1% of transgender people aren't just following a fad but claim you aren't targeting the majority of the T, and then you elevate a tiny minority to some kind of status of increased validity despite the fact that most of the community really dislikes what they are saying.

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I'd say so.  From what I can tell, most folks who transition as adults stay that way.  A lower percentage who transition as youth stay that way.  But yeah, in 2019 I knew one detransitioner, in 2020 I heard from 3 more.  In 2021 like 10 or more.  Yep, exponential.  Very small numbers, but exponential.  

And more whiplash. You were claiming it was mitigated by "detrans" voices and now suddenly there is exponential growth based on very anecdotal evidence. Which is it?

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Back in August 2023, we had this exchange: 

Back in August, you seemed to acknowledge these people were real.  Now you're back to dismissing the existence of 6 people.   I'll repeat my repeated repetitive request: We're talking about how to do right by people in general and children when it involves them.  Try harder.  People, even in small numbers, have value.  Their lived experience shouldn't be brushed aside.  Even if they're in the minority, as detransitioners are compared to the larger number of trans folks.

I acknowledged they are real and that they are a minority which is still what I am doing. I am not advocating for them to be brushed aside. Inasmuch as they could help us avoid people transitioning in error we should hear them. Too often though they are generalizing and claiming that all transgender people are completely wrong and that all the majority who are okay with their transition should be denied access to the medication and procedures to facilitate it. That part we can chuck out the door.

How much time do you spend listening to anti-Mormons claiming the whole church is a massive fraud on every level and should be destroyed and honoring their "lived experience".

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Try harder.

Try at all.

Or stop trying.

Leave my friends alone. Stop repeating myths and half-truths used to stir up fear, anger, and hatred towards people I care about. They suffer enough already.

I stand by what I said before. Transgender people aren't the problem. They are just a convenient moral panic created by people who are the problem.