Church sued again over how it uses tithing contributions from members

[Diamondhands69]

32 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

In poor nations, not of poor nations.

Prepositions matter.

It’s also teaching prosperity gospel. 

[bluebell]

42 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

“President Nelson also said tithing can break cycles of poverty in poor nations and families.
 

 

“Poor nations”

Is that not the same as a country (s) or is this merely a semantic issue for you because he said nation instead of country?  
 

 

Like Stormin' Mormon has posted, I think the "in" is important in how we interpret that.  Plus, the other statement that you posted to me earlier seems to be clarifying what Pres. Nelson meant further. And that statement speaks of families living in poverty in poor nations who pay their tithing, and how those families will be blessed to break that generational struggle. Now, I do think that if every family in a country were to live the gospel that that country would prosper in many many ways, and an increase in overall wealth so that no one lives in poverty could be one of those blessings.  

Also, I just want to throw in that your interpretation of "prosperity gospel" seems kind of loose compared to how most people use that term.  Often, when that term is used its implied that it means that people will get rich or have lots of material possessions if they live a certain way or donate to a specific cause.  They teach that possession of wealth is a mark of divine favor.  But pres. Nelson isn't teaching anything like that in the quotes you provided.  He isn't talking about wealth, he's talking about having your needs met and not living in poverty.  He's saying that God will take care of you, not that He'll give you that fancy house on the hill or a new car.

Pres. Oaks specifically speaks out against the idea of the "gospel of prosperity" and I don't think he's contradicting Pres. Nelson when he does it.

“Those who preach the gospel of success and the theology of prosperity are suffering from ‘the deceitfulness of riches’ and from supposing that ‘gain is godliness’ (1 Timothy 6:5). The possession of wealth or the acquisition of significant income is not a mark of heavenly favor, and their absence is not evidence of heavenly disfavor. Riches can be among the blessings that follow right behavior—such as the payment of tithing (Malachi 3:9–12)—but riches can also be acquired through the luck of a prospector or as the fruits of dishonesty”

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, helix said:

Just chiming in with another perspective. Sometimes things are implied but not stated, and others don't catch the implication.

We have a ward member who is a CPA (certified public accountant) and works with individuals and government entities, poor and rich. He said something that stuck with me. I'm paraphrasing from memory: "I've observed people who have the discipline to pay tithing generally avoid poverty. They know their means and how to live within them."

I get that this isn't a universal rule. I know single mothers stressed with kids who just literally don't have extra cash and can't magically create more income for years. But generally budgeting to sacrifice 10% helps a person get finances in order, avoid frivolous habits, and know what income they must live within.

So I'm personally comfortable when a church leader tells members in Africa to pay tithing. Being aware of spending and how to exercise financial self-control is one of the best financial lessons out there.

As someone who is aware of how much people pay in charitable donations, I also have observed that people who pay tithing (in or out of the church) avoid poverty.

 

[helix]

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

It’s also teaching prosperity gospel. 

Modern day cynicism baffles me for declaring this an immortal statement: "inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land"

[Diamondhands69]

42 minutes ago, Danzo said:

As someone who is aware of how much people pay in charitable donations, I also have observed that people who pay tithing (in or out of the church) avoid poverty.

 

As a financial advisor I also see what people pay in tithing, earn and save for retirement. 
 

sure tithing may help them learn to budget and stay out of poverty, but we must not assume that someone who doesn’t pay tithing can’t figure that out. You didn’t say that, but just throwing it out there.
 

For the average earner out there (<$100k per yr) it also handicaps their ability to save and pretty much prevents prosperity relative to their heathen counterparts who make the same and have similar lifestyles. 

My client base comes from a few select industries and I’m about half heathen and half Mormon clientele. ( sorry I use heathen cuz that what my parents called non Mormons when I was growing up lol). With that combo I can kind of compare apples to apples. The heathen part of the equation usually has 401k balances a few hundred k higher than their lds friends. This is in age 50-65 category. 

That is a huge difference and the Mormon guys can never catch up because they are permanently handicapped. Handicapped not only in savings, but in their required income in retirement as well.
 

I know everyone’s definition of poverty and prosperity are different so I’m not even going to engage in it. 
 

 

 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Like Stormin' Mormon has posted, I think the "in" is important in how we interpret that.  Plus, the other statement that you posted to me earlier seems to be clarifying what Pres. Nelson meant further. And that statement speaks of families living in poverty in poor nations who pay their tithing, and how those families will be blessed to break that generational struggle. Now, I do think that if every family in a country were to live the gospel that that country would prosper in many many ways, and an increase in overall wealth so that no one lives in poverty could be one of those blessings.  

Also, I just want to throw in that your interpretation of "prosperity gospel" seems kind of loose compared to how most people use that term.  Often, when that term is used its implied that it means that people will get rich or have lots of material possessions if they live a certain way or donate to a specific cause.  They teach that possession of wealth is a mark of divine favor.  But pres. Nelson isn't teaching anything like that in the quotes you provided.  He isn't talking about wealth, he's talking about having your needs met and not living in poverty.  He's saying that God will take care of you, not that He'll give you that fancy house on the hill or a new car.

Pres. Oaks specifically speaks out against the idea of the "gospel of prosperity" and I don't think he's contradicting Pres. Nelson when he does it.

“Those who preach the gospel of success and the theology of prosperity are suffering from ‘the deceitfulness of riches’ and from supposing that ‘gain is godliness’ (1 Timothy 6:5). The possession of wealth or the acquisition of significant income is not a mark of heavenly favor, and their absence is not evidence of heavenly disfavor. Riches can be among the blessings that follow right behavior—such as the payment of tithing (Malachi 3:9–12)—but riches can also be acquired through the luck of a prospector or as the fruits of dishonesty”

President Oaks may be condemning a certain segment of prosperity gospel practitioners, but there are segments that focus very much on using their prosperity to bless others and help others get out of poverty.  He needs to be careful with blanket statements of condemnation like that, because prosperity gospel is a large umbrella of different names and brands.  It is an umbrella that I think the church fits comfortably under.  the Book of Mormon is chock full of "the gospel of success and the theology of prosperity", with its prosperity cycles a prominent theme throughout the book, and the guarantee of riches for righteousness - 

Quote

And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted. (Jacob 2:17–19)

Quote

Nephites become rich because of prosperity in Christ, 4 Ne. 1:23.

Quote

do what the Lord commands, and you shall prosper, D&C 9:13.

Quote

“And I hold forth and deign to give unto you greater riches,"  D&C 38

Quote

 

The Lord has demonstrated throughout the generations that when the inhabitants of the earth remember him and are obedient to his direction, he will bless them not only with spiritual blessings, but with material abundance as well.

The scriptures contain many evidences of the Lord’s willingness to prosper his people with the riches of the earth when they demonstrate that they will use this abundance prudently, with humility and charity, always acknowledging the source of their blessings.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1992/10/the-lord-will-prosper-the-righteous?lang=eng

Nephites become rich because of prosperity in Christ, 4 Ne. 1:23.
do what the Lord commands, and you shall prosper, D&C 9:13.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/triple-index/prosper?lang=eng

 

President Nelson is practically teaching straight from the prosperity gospel handbook when he promises getting out of poverty for paying tithing. 

Like it or not, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint is very much under the prosperity gospel umbrella.  I could give you talk after talk after talk for months with these types of promises and prosperity gospel teachings. It is one of the enduring and core themes of the restored gospel, it seems.   Only occasionally do we see more nuanced talks that try to distance us from promises of financial prosperity for righteousness.  Yet, the blanket promises are still there and far more prevalent, especially in restored scripture and the D&C. 

 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

As someone who is aware of how much people pay in charitable donations, I also have observed that people who pay tithing (in or out of the church) avoid poverty.

 

Generally, people who were not born in poverty tend to avoid poverty.  That doesn't say much.  Have you generally observed that those who come from poverty and start paying tithing get out of poverty?

Have you been to the Philippines?  I have kept in contact for over 20 years now with many of my converts and mission companions who came from poverty.  Most are still living in the same bamboo hut with dirt floor and hole in the ground for a toilet, the more "prosperous" are still in their cinderblock shacks with tin roofs.  No improvements there either.  Faithful endowed tithed payers.    Teaching tithing was always the hardest principle for me to teach.  I couldn't promise the same thing that President Nelson promised.  I don't know a missionary who would or could.  It just didn't seem to work like that. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by pogi

[Calm]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

I know that my parents were pulled in by their stake president to serve missions, they are now on their second.  He called them in and said, President Nelson has asked you to serve, will you answer that call?"   They came home with a large hard stock color printout of President Nelson with a caption that said something to the effect of "Seniors, fulfill your divine mandate to serve", and "The Lord needs you". This was a large church wide coordinated effort by the church:

senior_missionary_training_materials.pdf (ldscdn.org)

My parents were asked to serve a local mission based on my dad’s work experience. They said “no, it wasn’t appropriate for their family” (Dad wanted to travel) and that was that.  They were not happy to be called in, but as far as they can tell, nothing negative came of them saying no.

I do think there is some pressure/persuasion being put on senior couples, but hopefully if a couple expresses reservations the vast majority of leaders stop there.  Because we are human, there is likely some rogue leader(s) hounding senior couples out there.  I think there would be a lot more complaints being made if it was routine procedure though.

Volunteerism does appear linked to, if not a cause, of longer lives and better health.  Being significantly involved in one’s community as well.  I think one of the reasons Saints are longer lived is because we give our Seniors meaningful purpose in their lives, so I honestly don’t think a little pressure to get seniors out of their comfort zone is a bad thing, but it is important to recognize the couple knows their own circumstances the best and going beyond offering an opportunity shouldn’t be done, imo.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Calm

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

As a financial advisor I also see what people pay in tithing, earn and save for retirement. 
 

sure tithing may help them learn to budget and stay out of poverty, but we must not assume that someone who doesn’t pay tithing can’t figure that out. You didn’t say that, but just throwing it out there.
 

For the average earner out there (<$100k per yr) it also handicaps their ability to save and pretty much prevents prosperity relative to their heathen counterparts who make the same and have similar lifestyles. 

My client base comes from a few select industries and I’m about half heathen and half Mormon clientele. ( sorry I use heathen cuz that what my parents called non Mormons when I was growing up lol). With that combo I can kind of compare apples to apples. The heathen part of the equation usually has 401k balances a few hundred k higher than their lds friends. This is in age 50-65 category. 

That is a huge difference and the Mormon guys can never catch up because they are permanently handicapped. Handicapped not only in savings, but in their required income in retirement as well.
 

I know everyone’s definition of poverty and prosperity are different so I’m not even going to engage in it. 
 

 

 

Interestingly  I run a tax practice and I see amounts given to charity from a wide range of individuals from a wide range of incomes. I live in a state that has a very low standard deduction so I see amounts contributed to charity for a wide range of incomes, even when it doesn't make any difference for federal taxes, it often will make a difference for state taxes.

One thing I have found out is income doesn't equal wealth or financial security. I see people who earn in the mid to high six figures who consider themselves poor (indeed often their expenses exceed their incomes) and people who are fairly comfortable even below 50K in income.

On the whole, the people who pay significant amounts of charity are better off than those who don't.  You would think that having an extra 10 percent hanging around would put a crimp in ones budget. and on paper it does.  I never recommend people pay more to charity to increase there wealth. It doesn't work out on paper.

However, I find that people who pay a lot to charity tend to be better off. More comfortable with the income they have, less worried about finances and better able to save and do other things.  There is something about consistently contributing to the greater good that seems to help people live better, more balanced lives.  

 

[MustardSeed]

My SIL parents were assigned as mission presidents in Africa without soliciting for the assignment.  They were nominated by several high ranking local members and then brought in. 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

President Oaks may be condemning a certain segment of prosperity gospel practitioners, but there are segments that focus very much on using their prosperity to bless others and help others get out of poverty.  He needs to be careful with blanket statements of condemnation like that, because prosperity gospel is a large umbrella of different names and brands.  It is an umbrella that I think the church fits comfortably under.  the Book of Mormon is chock full of "the gospel of success and the theology of prosperity", with its prosperity cycles a prominent theme throughout the book, and the guarantee of riches for righteousness - 

President Nelson is practically teaching straight from the prosperity gospel handbook when he promises getting out of poverty for paying tithing. 

Like it or not, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint is very much under the prosperity gospel umbrella.  I could give you talk after talk after talk for months with these types of promises and prosperity gospel teachings. It is one of the enduring and core themes of the restored gospel, it seems.   Only occasionally do we see more nuanced talks that try to distance us from promises of financial prosperity for righteousness.  Yet, the blanket promises are still there and far more prevalent, especially in restored scripture and the D&C. 

 

And I love that those promises are there.  They are wonderful promises!  The windows of heaven are promised to open.  That should never be kept a secret and I denied none of it.

What I was speaking out against was the "prosperity gospel" that many think of when they hear that term: “Prosperity gospel” is a term used mostly by critics to describe a theology and movement based on the belief that God wants to reward believers with health and wealth. The prosperity gospel, known alternatively as the Word of Faith or Health and Wealth gospel, maintains a distinctive view of how faith operates. Built on the theology of Essek William Kenyon, an early 20th-century radio evangelist, faith came to be seen as a spiritual law that guaranteed that believers who spoke positive truths aloud would lay claim to the divine blessings of health and happiness."  

or

"There is a belief in our culture that many people are deceived by what is called the “prosperity gospel.” It is a false teaching that in essence says, "If I am a Christian, God promises to bless me with great health, wealth, and prosperity." 

Do I think that following God's commandments can lead to prosperity? I absolutely do, especially if everyone in a community is focused on doing so (like the BOM talks about).  But not because God is specifically blessing them with wealth.  I think that wealth can more easily happen in a society where everyone is fair, and just, and taking care of the poor, and focused on helping each other, and able to spend time producing and trading and creating rather than fighting wars or corruption or drinking, gambling, and having sex.

But as we know, corruption and evil can produce prosperity too.  The mob or the drug cartels is a good example of that.

[Danzo]

15 minutes ago, pogi said:

Generally, people who were not born in poverty tend to avoid poverty.  That doesn't say much.  Have you generally observed that those who come from poverty and start paying tithing get out of poverty?

Have you been to the Philippines?  I have kept in contact for over 20 years now with many of my converts and mission companions who came from poverty.  Most are still living in the same bamboo hut with dirt floor and hole in the ground for a toilet, the more "prosperous" are still in their cinderblock shacks with tin roofs.  No improvements there either.  Faithful endowed tithed payers.    Teaching tithing was always the hardest principle for me to teach.  I couldn't promise the same thing that President Nelson promised.  I don't know a missionary who would or could.  It just didn't seem to work like that. 

I have observed people getting out of poverty, who are members of the church. While I don't know the tithing status of all of these people, paying tithing does seem to make a big difference.

The people the come to mind, that I have extensive experience with are people who were indigenous Americans born in Mexico, substance farmers who grew up with very little cash.  No high school education. Very little pre high school education.  

They have been blessed (current assets in the 6 figures and one in the 7 figures) all indigenous, all born into poverty, all without education, all immigrants.  The ones remaining in Mexico have also benefited from the the prosperity.

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

My SIL parents were assigned as mission presidents in Africa without soliciting for the assignment.  They were nominated by several high ranking local members and then brought in. 

I've heard the Mission president process is different, which would make sense.  It seems like it would be kind of like being a stake president in terms of responsibilities.

[pogi]

25 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I have observed people getting out of poverty, who are members of the church. While I don't know the tithing status of all of these people, paying tithing does seem to make a big difference.

The people the come to mind, that I have extensive experience with are people who were indigenous Americans born in Mexico, substance farmers who grew up with very little cash.  No high school education. Very little pre high school education.  

They have been blessed (current assets in the 6 figures and one in the 7 figures) all indigenous, all born into poverty, all without education, all immigrants.  The ones remaining in Mexico have also benefited from the the prosperity.

I have observed the same things from non-Christian immigrants coming from poverty.  I would be curious to see studies on converts who live in generational poverty who start paying tithing.  I haven’t witnessed the promised blessings in the Philippines.  It seems that investing the money in other ways and learning sound financial principles seems like a more sure way out of poverty to me.

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I have observed people getting out of poverty, who are members of the church. While I don't know the tithing status of all of these people, paying tithing does seem to make a big difference.

The people the come to mind, that I have extensive experience with are people who were indigenous Americans born in Mexico, substance farmers who grew up with very little cash.  No high school education. Very little pre high school education.  

They have been blessed (current assets in the 6 figures and one in the 7 figures) all indigenous, all born into poverty, all without education, all immigrants.  The ones remaining in Mexico have also benefited from the the prosperity.

My grandpa came from extreme poverty in Missouri.  The family was baptized when he was a child but never active (he was one of 14).  He and my grandma became active when I was 9.  From what I've been able to see he and his other brother that was active have done the best financially (with another one doing fairly well as well).  The rest still struggled with poverty but I don't know how their children have done.  Kind of a little of both I think. 

I don't think that paying tithing is the reason he had what he had but it, along with living the gospel and keeping his covenants, gave him a life of stability and comfort that was a lot different from my great aunts and uncles.

(But all these people were/are good people who would do anything for family and they left me with a legacy of love that I'm very blessed to be a part of, whether they were ever active or members or not)

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

I have observed the same things from non-Christian immigrants coming from poverty.  I would be curious to see studies on converts who live in generational poverty who start paying tithing.  I haven’t witnessed the promised blessings in the Philippines.  It seems that investing the money in other ways and learning sound financial principles seems like a more sure way out of poverty to me.

It would be interesting to hear the Filippinino's point of view on it.

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It would be interesting to hear the Filippinino's point of view on it.

And to see how much opportunities for upward mobility even exist.  If there are manmade, social and/or corrupt limitations placed, kind of hard, if not impossible to achieve.

The Church is doing a lot to help expand opportunities through Pathways, which puts affordable education in places that didn’t have it before….but someone who has to work three jobs to support their families might not be able to make use of it, for example.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Calm

[Nofear]

5 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

It’s also teaching prosperity gospel. 

Not prosperity, but sufficiency. If we are wise stewards with our finances, including, but not limited to, paying our tithing, the promise is that there will be sufficient. If I pay tithing but otherwise am unwise and foolish with my financial stewardship, the blessings of paying my tithing won't stop me from financial ruin.

[The Nehor]

33 minutes ago, Nofear said:

Not prosperity, but sufficiency. If we are wise stewards with our finances, including, but not limited to, paying our tithing, the promise is that there will be sufficient. If I pay tithing but otherwise am unwise and foolish with my financial stewardship, the blessings of paying my tithing won't stop me from financial ruin.

The promise, like virtually all divine promises, is vague. It is not a falsifiable promise.

[bluebell]

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The promise, like virtually all divine promises, is vague. It is not a falsifiable promise.

Individually I think it is, but not where you can prove it to anyone else.  In that sense it’s like a witness of the spirit.

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The promise, like virtually all divine promises, is vague. It is not a falsifiable promise.

Indeed. If being a disciple of Christ was obviously tremendously beneficial, it would be silly not to do it. It is tremendously beneficial to me and I see the blessings but those blessings are personal and largely meant for the individual/family. This is by design. Faith is a necessary component to our growth.

Puting it another way, ithe blessings of discipleship is individually provable but not publically falsifiable.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Nofear

[pogi]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

It would be interesting to hear the Filippinino's point of view on it.

They will attest to blessings of living the gospel, but they will not attest to financial prosperity  or relief from poverty.  Life is “mahirap” (hard, financially poor) in the Philippines - that is the common refrain I hear from them. 
On my mission, the common testimony was that paying tithing is hard, but somehow there is always rice on our plates like before.  That was a faith builder for many.  Hardly the promised break from generational poverty.

Edited November 8, 2023 by pogi

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

And to see how much opportunities for upward mobility even exist.  If there are manmade, social and/or corrupt limitations placed, kind of hard, if not impossible to achieve.

The Church is doing a lot to help expand opportunities through Pathways, which puts affordable education in places that didn’t have it before….but someone who has to work three jobs to support their families might not be able to make use of it, for example.

That is exactly why I have problems with lofty promises of overcoming generational poverty by families paying tithing in these countries where limited upward mobility and opportunities exist and where corruption is rampant. 

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

President Oaks may be condemning a certain segment of prosperity gospel practitioners, but there are segments that focus very much on using their prosperity to bless others and help others get out of poverty.  He needs to be careful with blanket statements of condemnation like that, because prosperity gospel is a large umbrella of different names and brands.  It is an umbrella that I think the church fits comfortably under.  the Book of Mormon is chock full of "the gospel of success and the theology of prosperity", with its prosperity cycles a prominent theme throughout the book, and the guarantee of riches for righteousness - 

President Nelson is practically teaching straight from the prosperity gospel handbook when he promises getting out of poverty for paying tithing. 

Like it or not, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint is very much under the prosperity gospel umbrella.  I could give you talk after talk after talk for months with these types of promises and prosperity gospel teachings. It is one of the enduring and core themes of the restored gospel, it seems.   Only occasionally do we see more nuanced talks that try to distance us from promises of financial prosperity for righteousness.  Yet, the blanket promises are still there and far more prevalent, especially in restored scripture and the D&C. 

 

I wonder how many LDS go into debt to look like they're prospering and therefore more righteous.

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder how many LDS go into debt to look like they're prospering and therefore more righteous.

I really don’t think this happens more amongst church members than it does in the general population. Except maybe the righteous part.