Church sued again over how it uses tithing contributions from members

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder how many LDS go into debt to look like they're prospering and therefore more righteous.

My guess is far fewer than those who live well within their means due to church teachings, including those who are wanting to appear righteous to others besides God in obeying them.

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

My guess is far fewer than those who live well within their means due to church teachings, including those who are wanting to appear righteous to others besides God in obeying them.

I shouldn't but I do kind of judge I guess, all the super expensive vehicles in the church parking lot, through the years. 

[Diamondhands69]

23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I really don’t think this happens more amongst church members than it does in the general population. Except maybe the righteous part.

I would agree with that statement. That said, I see lots of it from faithful tithe payers ( according to the math) spending the rest  of their disposable income on toys and a bigger house. 

 

 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

They will attest to blessings of living the gospel, but they will not attest to financial prosperity  or relief from poverty.  Life is “mahirap” (hard, financially poor) in the Philippines - that is the common refrain I hear from them. 
On my mission, the common testimony was that paying tithing is hard, but somehow there is always rice on our plates like before.  That was a faith builder for many.  Hardly the promised break from generational poverty.

I wonder if they were ever promised that blessing (not asking flippantly or insincerely, just wondering if Pres. Nelson's promise to the African saints has been given to other people as well).

[Diamondhands69]

45 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I shouldn't but I do kind of judge I guess, all the super expensive vehicles in the church parking lot, through the years. 

I think it is more like keeping up with the Jones clan rather than appearing righteous. Personally I have never heard anyone say they or someone else is wealthy because they are righteous. Just my two cents. 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

I think it is more like keeping up with the Jones clan rather than appearing righteous. Personally I have never heard anyone say they or someone else is wealthy because they are righteous. Just my two cents. 

Well, maybe it's evidence that they are getting blessings from paying tithing.  Okay, for those that don't know me, I really don't know what I'm saying a lot of times. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Tacenda

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I shouldn't but I do kind of judge I guess, all the super expensive vehicles in the church parking lot, through the years. 

I do too, at least some of them as I don’t know much about cars or the value of them nor do I care to.  I laugh at them mainly, driving a Hummer to church when you live within walking distance on pretty flat roads even if a small town…who wouldn’t laugh?  I would much prefer the little golf cart one older couple uses, so much easier.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Calm

[Nofear]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder how many LDS go into debt to look like they're prospering and therefore more righteous.

There is a trend in communities that when the community offers more benefits (social or otherwise) there tends to be a higher "cost of membership". Game theory explains this as a way of helping deal with the "free-loader problem". Consequently, in communities, "cost of membership" and "benefits of membership" tend towards Nash equilibrium. The game theory explanation has some pretty good predictive power and post-hoc explanatory power. It is a way of looking at the Church, especially if one is inclined to disbelieve any "supernatural" elements to it.

Yet, I'm not sure it is a good fit from a purely secular value. The "cost of membership" is pretty high and the secular benefits are reasonable. Yet, almost all of the secular benefits are accessible with minimal social cost to a non-tithe paying member. If one wants to "appear righteous" (and gain whatever social benefits that might afford the individual) the "cost" of paying tithing seems to be much, much more than the "cost" of concealing that one is not a full tithe payer. Thus, from a game theory perspective, it wouldn't really be a common thing at all. I suppose that one could supplement the explanation by asserting that the Church manipulates/brain-washes/coerces tithe paying and hence the skewing of the population from what game theory would predict.

[pogi]

Quote

 

Do I think that following God's commandments can lead to prosperity? I absolutely do, especially if everyone in a community is focused on doing so (like the BOM talks about).  But not because God is specifically blessing them with wealth.  I think that wealth can more easily happen in a society where everyone is fair, and just, and taking care of the poor, and focused on helping each other, and able to spend time producing and trading and creating rather than fighting wars or corruption or drinking, gambling, and having sex.

 

I agree with this too.  The church teaches something else though.  It has always been taught that God specifically blesses them with wealth.  It is not enough to follow sound financial principles in a fair and just society (as you suggest is the source/cause of the blessings), one is only guaranteed financial prosperity if they 1) have received a hope in Christ, and 2) desire it to feed the poor etc (Jacob 2).  That God specifically blesses the righteous with wealth is one of the enduring and core teachings of our church.  It is in the fabric of scripture and prophetic teachings/promises from the beginning of the restoration.   President Nelson and others have made it even simpler - simply pay your tithing to break the chains of generational poverty.  Now, if he would have said that it can happen in poor nations and families where "everyone is fair, and just, and taking care of the poor, and focused on helping each other, and able to spend time producing and trading and creating rather than fighting...".   That's not what he said though.  Simply "pay your tithing".  

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

I wonder if they were ever promised that blessing (not asking flippantly or insincerely, just wondering if Pres. Nelson's promise to the African saints has been given to other people as well).

While his comment was said in Kenya, he didn't limit the promised blessings to Kenyans.  He specified that this is why the church preaches tithing to the "poor people of the world".  It was framed as a universal blessing for poor nations and poor families of the world.  Not to mention all the universal prosperity (financial prosperity, specifically) promises in the Book of Mormon and D&C. 

Quote

 

President Nelson also said tithing can break cycles of poverty in poor nations and families.

"We preach tithing to the poor people of the world because the poor people of the world have had cycles of poverty, generation after generation," he said. "That same poverty continues from one generation to another, until people pay their tithing."

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by pogi

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Nofear said:

There is a trend in communities that when the community offers more benefits (social or otherwise) there tends to be a higher "cost of membership". Game theory explains this as a way of helping deal with the "free-loader problem". Consequently, in communities, "cost of membership" and "benefits of membership" tend towards Nash equilibrium. The game theory explanation has some pretty good predictive power and post-hoc explanatory power. It is a way of looking at the Church, especially if one is inclined to disbelieve any "supernatural" elements to it.

Yet, I'm not sure it is a good fit from a purely secular value. The "cost of membership" is pretty high and the secular benefits are reasonable. Yet, almost all of the secular benefits are accessible with minimal social cost to a non-tithe paying member. If one wants to "appear righteous" (and gain whatever social benefits that might afford the individual) the "cost" of paying tithing seems to be much, much more than the "cost" of concealing that one is not a full tithe payer. Thus, from a game theory perspective, it wouldn't really be a common thing at all. I suppose that one could supplement the explanation by asserting that the Church manipulates/brain-washes/coerces tithe paying and hence the skewing of the population from what game theory would predict.

 

30 minutes ago, pogi said:

I agree with this too.  The church teaches something else though.  It has always been taught that God specifically blesses them with wealth.  It is not enough to follow sound financial principles in a fair and just society (as you suggest is the source/cause of the blessings), one is only guaranteed financial prosperity if they 1) have received a hope in Christ, and 2) desire it to feed the poor etc (Jacob 2).  That God specifically blesses the righteous with wealth is one of the enduring and core teachings of our church.  It is in the fabric of scripture and prophetic teachings/promises from the beginning of the restoration.   President Nelson and others have made it even simpler - simply pay your tithing to break the chains of generational poverty.  Now, if he would have said that it can happen in poor nations and families where "everyone is fair, and just, and taking care of the poor, and focused on helping each other, and able to spend time producing and trading and creating rather than fighting...".   That's not what he said though.  Simply "pay your tithing".  

While his comment was said in Kenya, he didn't limit the promised blessings to Kenyans.  He specified that this is why the church preaches tithing to the "poor people of the world".  It was framed as a universal blessing for poor nations and poor families of the world.  Not to mention all the universal prosperity (financial prosperity, specifically) promises in the Book of Mormon and D&C. 

 

While reading what you've said here about why the church just left it at just pay you're tithing. Your quote:

"President Nelson and others have made it even simpler - simply pay your tithing to break the chains of generational poverty.  Now, if he would have said that it can happen in poor nations and families where "everyone is fair, and just, and taking care of the poor, and focused on helping each other, and able to spend time producing and trading and creating rather than fighting...".   That's not what he said though.  Simply "pay your tithing"."

Made me think that the church is saying, if you pay tithing the church will help with things they need. Could that be why they left it like that? Which sort of infuriates me now for a while. I believe the members should pay all their bills and not have to go to the church for help or charity. I believe the member shouldn't have to do that but instead take care of their household situations and then pay tithing of what is left. I wish the church would just be true to the original scripture in the D&C about paying on what is left, not before paying all the bills. In the scripture it is one tenth of increase, not particularly income. This is the crux to me, and since it's more "income", and pay before the bills, it has made the church a very wealthy church, IMO. 

[pogi]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Made me think that the church is saying, if you pay tithing the church will help with things they need. Could that be why they left it like that?

I don't think so.  I don't think anyone would genuinely think that relying on church welfare is the same as breaking generational poverty cycles.  He is teaching prosperity gospel. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by pogi

[smac97]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I agree with this too.  The church teaches something else though.  It has always been taught that God specifically blesses them with wealth. 

I'm not sure about that.  Scriptures ought to be read in context, and when that happens the "an individual's obedience to God inexorably and inevitably leads to that individual receiving abundant material wealth" concept does not really hold.

In accordance with Jacob 2:18-19: "The Lord counsels the Saints not to seek for worldly riches except to do good. The Saints must not put seeking worldly riches before seeking the kingdom of God, which holds the riches of eternity."

Ps. 62:10 - "{I}f riches increase, set not your heart upon them."

Prov. 11:28 - "He that trusteth in his riches shall fall."

Seek not for riches but for wisdom, D&C 6:7 (Alma 39:14; D&C 11:7).

The riches of the earth are God’s to give, but beware of pride, D&C 38:39.

From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism ("Wealth, Attitudes Toward") :

Quote

Latter-day Saints view wealth as a blessing and also as a test. The Lord has repeatedly promised his people, "Inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land" (Alma 36:30). But wealth can lead to pride and inequality: "Woe unto the rich, who are rich as to the things of the world. For because they are rich they despise the poor, and they persecute the meek, and their hearts are upon their treasures" (2 Ne. 9:30). Therefore, attitudes toward wealth and the use of material abundance reveal a person's priorities: "Before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God. And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good" (Jacob 2:18-19). To those who will inherit the Celestial Kingdom, God has promised the riches of eternity.

I think the promise in Alma 36:30 is intended to be more collective than individualized. See, e.g., this 2017 address at BYU by Elder Cook:

Quote

Prospering in the Land

Most of you are on the verge of that period of life in which financial matters and the choices you make about them are exceedingly important. A familiar scripture found in Alma 36:30—and similarly in many other places in the Book of Mormon—has two parts. It reads, “Inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land.” The second part reads, “Inasmuch as ye will not keep the commandments of God ye shall be cut off from his presence.” It is clear that having the blessing of the Holy Spirit is a principal element of prospering in the land.

Along with having the Spirit, sacred teachings of the Church establish having sufficient for our needs as the best measure of temporal prosperity. Lucifer’s paradigm shift here is to elevate the seeking of great wealth and the acquisition of highly visible luxury products. Some seem absolutely driven to achieve the lifestyle of the rich and famous. Excess wealth is not promised to faithful members, nor does it usually bring happiness.

As a people, the Latter-day Saints have indeed prospered. Some achieve wealth as the result of very worthwhile and appropriate pursuits and use that wealth to bless mankind and further the Lord’s purposes.

Wise financial principles include seeking the kingdom of God first; working, planning, and spending wisely; planning for the future; and using wealth to build up the kingdom of God.

Many years ago President N. Eldon Tanner gave a classic talk entitled “Constancy Amid Change.” The principles he taught are as applicable today as when he taught them:

First, “pay an honest tithing.”

Second, “live on less than you earn.”

Third, “learn to distinguish between needs and wants.” In doing so, remember that yesterday’s luxuries have in some cases become today’s necessities.

Fourth, “develop and live within a budget” but plan on the unexpected.

Fifth, “be honest in all your financial affairs.”³³

President Tanner’s admonition to live on less than you earn is a fundamental principle. In its most simple form, this is the principle: If you earn $100 and you only spend $95, you will be happy. If you earn $100 and you spend $105, this could be a recipe for misery.

(Emphases added.)

"{H}aving sufficient for our needs {is} the best measure of temporal prosperity."

"Excess wealth is not promised to faithful members, nor does it usually bring happiness."

Moreover, I think Alma 36:30 is not centered on material wealth/possessions.  See, e.g., this 2015 article by Elder Cook:

Quote

The Reward of Prospering in the Land

“Our family is not achieving significant material success. Is that because we are not righteous enough?”

The scriptures are clear that living the commandments allows us to prosper in the land. But let me assure you that prospering in the land is not defined by the size of your bank account. It has a much fuller meaning than that.

Speaking to his son Helaman, the prophet Alma teaches, “Inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land; and ye ought to know also, that inasmuch as ye will not keep the commandments of God ye shall be cut off from his presence” (Alma 36:30).

Accordingly, having the Spirit in our lives is the primary ingredient in prospering in the land. If we keep the commandments, we also have certain specific promises (see Ephesians 6:1–3). Doctrine and Covenants section 89, for example, promises that by living the Word of Wisdom, we will enjoy health blessings and great treasures of knowledge.

Isolating one element of the Word of Wisdom, avoiding alcohol, is instructional. The longitudinal study I mentioned earlier found that alcohol abuse touches one American family in three, is involved in a quarter of all admissions to general hospitals, and plays a major role in death, divorce, bad health, and diminished accomplishment.

A long-term study of active Church members in California found that women live on average 5.6 years and men 9.8 years longer than comparable U.S. females and males. The physicians conducting the study indicated at least one reason was adherence to the Word of Wisdom. Living the Word of Wisdom allows us to prosper in the land.

...

Prospering and being wealthy are not necessarily synonymous. A much better gospel definition of prospering in the land is having sufficient for our needs while having the abundant blessing of the Spirit in our lives. When we provide for our families and love and serve the Savior, we will enjoy the reward of having the Spirit and prospering in the land.

(Emphases added.)

"{P}rospering in the land is not defined by the size of your bank account. It has a much fuller meaning than that."

"Prospering and being wealthy are not necessarily synonymous."

Also consider Elder Ballard's 1981 caution regarding prosperity:

Quote

At the outset, as I address this subject, I emphasize that the most important principle we must live by today is the principle the prophet Alma taught his son Helaman: “But behold, my son, this is not all; for ye ought to know as I do know, that inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land; and ye ought to know also, that inasmuch as ye will not keep the commandments of God ye shall be cut off from his presence.” (Alma 36:30.)

My experience in the business community taught me that some people can get locked into a daily routine that can stifle their initiative, courage, and vision.
...
The love of work is an attitude that members of the Church must develop. In some ways, we have gone through a period of great prosperity which may, when history is written, prove to be as devastating as the Great Depression in its effect upon the attitudes of the people. President Harold B. Lee said, “Today we are being tested and tried by another kind of test that I might call the ‘test of gold’—the test of plenty, affluence, ease—more than perhaps the youth of any generation have passed through, at least in this Church.” (Sweet Are the Uses of Adversity … , Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year, Provo, 7 Feb. 1962, p. 3.)

(Emphases added.)

I wonder whether the Latter-day Saints in 2023, cumulatively, better off than they were in 1981 (when Elder Ballard spoke) and in 1962 (when Pres. Lee spoke).

1 hour ago, pogi said:

It is not enough to follow sound financial principles in a fair and just society (as you suggest is the source/cause of the blessings), one is only guaranteed financial prosperity if they 1) have received a hope in Christ, and 2) desire it to feed the poor etc (Jacob 2). 

Again, I think promises regarding prosperity A) do not center on material wealth, and B) are more cumulative than individual.

1 hour ago, pogi said:

That God specifically blesses the righteous with wealth is one of the enduring and core teachings of our church.

Respectfully, I disagree. If anything, the Church spends far more time and focus cautioning against the risks of wealth, as opposed to the pursuit of it.  See, e.g., this 2002 Liahona article:

Quote

Being wealthy is not morally wrong. The danger, as the Book of Mormon repeatedly emphasizes, is that when people become wealthy they sometimes forget the Lord and His commandments.

President Brigham Young (1801–77) said: “The worst fear that I have about [members of this Church] is that they will get rich in this country, forget God and his people, wax fat, and kick themselves out of the Church and go to hell. This people will stand mobbing, robbing, poverty, and all manner of persecution, and be true. But my greater fear for them is that they cannot stand wealth; and yet they have to be tried with riches” (quoted in Preston Nibley, Brigham Young: The Man and His Work [1936], 128).

If we are to “stand wealth,” as President Young said, we must remember why the Lord might bless us with wealth and understand both why and when we should seek it. Jacob explained, “After ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted” (Jacob 2:19).

“The worst fear that I have about [members of this Church] is that they will get rich in this country, forget God and his people, wax fat, and kick themselves out of the Church and go to hell. This people will stand mobbing, robbing, poverty, and all manner of persecution, and be true. But my greater fear for them is that they cannot stand wealth; and yet they have to be tried with riches.”

I can't think of a statement more antithetical to the premise of "prosperity theology" than the foregoing quote of Brigham Young, which is cited at least 19 times on the Church's website. If the Brethren are preaching "prosperity theology," they are doing a very poor job of it.

See also these 1988 comments from Elder Oaks (same link as above) :

Quote

“Those who set their hearts upon the things of the world usually focus on some combination of that worldly quartet of property, pride, prominence, and power. When attitudes or priorities are fixed on the acquisition, use, or possession of property, we call that condition materialism. …

“From the emphasis given to this subject in the scriptures, it appears that materialism has been one of the greatest challenges to the children of God in all ages of time. Greed, the ugly face of materialism in action, has been one of Satan’s most effective weapons in corrupting men and turning their hearts from God. …

“The Apostle [Paul] did not say that there was anything inherently evil about money. … It is not money but the love of money that is identified as the root of all evil.”—Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (Pure in Heart [1988], 73–74, 78)

I agree with the sentiment expressed by Bluebell, namely, that "that following God's commandments can lead to prosperity."  "Can" is, I think, the operative word.  And if and when this happens, the Brethren have given us plenty of clear and sound counsel regarding the dangers that are almost inherent in the pursuit and accumulation of material wealth. 

This is why I can't go along with claims that the Church preaches some variation of the "prosperity gospel" concept.  That concept is, I think, substantially more absolutist, and therefore flawed.  See, e.g., this description of it from Wikipedia:

Quote

Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, the gospel of success, or seed faith)^[A] is a religious belief among some Charismatic Christians that financial blessing and physical well-being are always the will of God for them, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to religious causes will increase one's material wealth.^[1] Material and especially financial success is seen as a sign of divine favor.

"{A}lways the will of God."  Nope.  this is not what we believe.

"Material and especially financial success is seen as a sign of divine favor."  Unfortunately, some Latter-day Saints are susceptible to this flawed perception.  But this hallmark of "prosperity theology" is, I submit, absent from the counsel of the Brethren.

1 hour ago, pogi said:

It is in the fabric of scripture and prophetic teachings/promises from the beginning of the restoration.   President Nelson and others have made it even simpler - simply pay your tithing to break the chains of generational poverty. 

I assume you are referencing this 2018 story:

Quote

President Nelson denounced the practices of paying a dowry or paying a bride price for marriages. He emphasized that cash or commodities shouldn’t be given to the family of a bride or groom.

“That’s not the Lord’s way,” President Nelson said. “The Lord’s way is to be married in the temple, for time and all eternity, with your children sealed to you.”

He added that if he’d had to pay for his wife, “I would have missed five children, because only with my last five was I out of debt.”

He also said tithing can break cycles of poverty in poor nations and families.

“We preach tithing to the poor people of the world because the poor people of the world have had cycles of poverty, generation after generation,” he said. “That same poverty continues from one generation to another, until people pay their tithing.”

I'm not sure it's accurate to characterize Pres. Nelson's comment in such a simplistic way.  Pres. Nelson is an intelligent man.  He was speaking in very broad and collective terms, which out not be read or construed in isolation.  If he had said "People of the world become healthier and happier when the observe the principles arising from the Word of Wisdom," I don't think it would be fair to distill this down to: "Simply obey the Word of Wisdom and you'll be healthy and happy."

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Now, if he would have said that it can happen in poor nations and families where "everyone is fair, and just, and taking care of the poor, and focused on helping each other, and able to spend time producing and trading and creating rather than fighting...".   That's not what he said though.  Simply "pay your tithing".  

I think you are not fairly or accurately characterizing his remarks.

1 hour ago, pogi said:

While his comment was said in Kenya, he didn't limit the promised blessings to Kenyans.  He specified that this is why the church preaches tithing to the "poor people of the world".  It was framed as a universal blessing for poor nations and poor families of the world.  Not to mention all the universal prosperity (financial prosperity, specifically) promises in the Book of Mormon and D&C. 

There are no such promises in the scriptures.  If you still feel otherwise, please consider this a CFR for "all the universal prosperity (financial prosperity, specifically) promises" in the scriptures.  I would expect your response to include

A) multiple scriptural citations ("all the ... promises") which

B) "specifically" promise "financial prosperity") on

C) a "universal" level.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 8, 2023 by smac97

[Teancum]

On 11/1/2023 at 3:25 PM, helix said:

Step 2) Quietly wait for the charity to send you detailed reporting of that money, then feign shock when it doesn't arrive. Claim breach of judiciary duty.

Thing is I don't need this from almost every charity I donate to.  Why?  Because I can see where the money goes because they don't hide their financials from the public nor from donors. So this really is an ineffective point.

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Quote

Step 2) Quietly wait for the charity to send you detailed reporting of that money, then feign shock when it doesn't arrive. Claim breach of judiciary duty.

Thing is I don't need this from almost every charity I donate to.  Why?  Because I can see where the money goes because they don't hide their financials from the public nor from donors. So this really is an ineffective point.

Could you itemize which charities you are referencing here?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Teancum]

On 11/2/2023 at 12:04 AM, smac97 said:

 Which is likely why these stupid lawsuits keep getting filed.  Not because they have merit, but because they cast the church in a poor light.

 I

I know Huntsman has money to burn so you may have a point with him.  Do these others?  If the suit did not have some legal merit wouldn't it be thrown out before it comes before a judge?  

The church could mitigate this if they would simply publish their financial statements like other reputable charities do.

[smac97]

20 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Quote

Which is likely why these stupid lawsuits keep getting filed.  Not because they have merit, but because they cast the church in a poor light.

I know Huntsman has money to burn so you may have a point with him.  Do these others? 

I don't know about their finances, but I'm not persuaded that their motives center on having "money to burn."  Rather, I think their motives are more about, well, casting the Church in a poor light.  Disparaging and denigrating it.  Fomenting ill will against and poor opinion of it.

20 minutes ago, Teancum said:

If the suit did not have some legal merit wouldn't it be thrown out before it comes before a judge?

No.  Anyone can file a lawsuit.  If the lawsuit (specifically, the "complaint," which is the document filed with the court and gets the ball rolling) lacks legal merit, or is otherwise inherently flawed/defective, it will nevertheless remain before the Court unless the defendant asks that it be dismissed.  At the front end of the lawsuit, this is typically done via a "Motion to Dismiss" filed by the defendant in accordance with Rule 12(b) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

As I noted in the OP, more than 1/3 of federal lawsuits are dismissed at the outset.  I have filed some hundreds of Rule 12 motions at the federal level, mostly in the context of consumer finance litigation regarding residential loans.  Of these hundreds of motions, I think I can count on one hand the number of times the motion was denied.  I'd like to attribute this to me being the most awesome litigator in the history of Utah, but my legal skills - though pretty good - were peripheral and secondary to the primary reason these motions succeeded.  That reason is pretty simple: My clients tended to have a superior factual and legal position in litigation because they generally tailored their business practices to conform with the law.

At present I am in-house counsel for a company that owns several hundred "low income" housing units.  I do a few evictions each month, and I am likely over 100 at this point.  I think there have only been one or two that we have not won.  Again, not because I am the best lawyer around, but because my client tailors its business practices to conform with the law, and so tends to have a superior factual and legal position in litigation.

So it is, I think, with the Church.  It tailors its policies, procedures, etc. to conform with the law, and as a result it tends to do well in litigation.  This is not always the case, of course.  The Church has limited control over its agents and members, and so sometimes is held legally accountable for their misconduct (the McKenna Denson case, for example).  And sometimes the Church screws up in a legal sense.  The Main Street Plaza matter and, more recently, the SEC issue illustrate that.  However, overall the Church follows the law, and therefore largely enjoys its protections.  Such will, I think, be the case in this lawsuit.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 8, 2023 by smac97

[pogi]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I'm not sure about that.  Scriptures ought to be read in context, and when that happens the "an individual's obedience to God inexorably and inevitably leads to that individual receiving abundant material wealth" concept does not really hold.

In accordance with Jacob 2:18-19: "The Lord counsels the Saints not to seek for worldly riches except to do good. The Saints must not put seeking worldly riches before seeking the kingdom of God, which holds the riches of eternity."

Jacob 2:19 also guarantees riches for those who seek them to do good.   Do this and you will receive this.  It is irrevocably decreed in heaven that the Lord is bound when you do what he says.  That is prosperity gospel. 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Ps. 62:10 - "{I}f riches increase, set not your heart upon them."

Prov. 11:28 - "He that trusteth in his riches shall fall."

Seek not for riches but for wisdom, D&C 6:7 (Alma 39:14; D&C 11:7).

The riches of the earth are God’s to give, but beware of pride, D&C 38:39.

The warnings and risks associated with having riches does not take away from the promises of them.   

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism ("Wealth, Attitudes Toward") :

I think the promise in Alma 36:30 is intended to be more collective than individualized. 

I agree.  It is a collective promise for all individuals. 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Moreover, I think Alma 36:30 is not centered on material wealth/possessions.

I am persuaded that the prosperity cycles and the promise of prosperity for righteousness in the Book of Mormon includes wealth/possessions.  That would be a stretch to deny.  Look at the prosperity cycles and other passages:

Quote

 

yea, we can see that the Lord in his great infinite goodness doth bless and prosper those who put their trust in him.

“Yea, and we may see at the very time when he doth prosper his people, yea, in the increase of their fields, their flocks and their herds, and in gold, and in silver, and in all manner of precious things of every kind and art; sparing their lives, and delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; … and in fine, doing all things for the welfare and happiness of his people; yea, then is the time that they do harden their hearts, and do forget the Lord their God” (Hel. 12:1–2).

 

 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

"{P}rospering in the land is not defined by the size of your bank account. It has a much fuller meaning than that."

It is not defined by it, but it does include it as a promised blessing. "All things" are prospered for our wellbeing, including riches and possessions according to scripture and church teachings. 

 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Also consider Elder Ballard's 1981 caution regarding prosperity:

(Emphases added.)

I wonder whether the Latter-day Saints in 2023, cumulatively, better off than they were in 1981 (when Elder Ballard spoke) and in 1962 (when Pres. Lee spoke).

Again, I think promises regarding prosperity A) do not center on material wealth, and B) are more cumulative than individual.

Respectfully, I disagree. If anything, the Church spends far more time and focus cautioning against the risks of wealth, as opposed to the pursuit of it.  See, e.g., this 2002 Liahona article:

“The worst fear that I have about [members of this Church] is that they will get rich in this country, forget God and his people, wax fat, and kick themselves out of the Church and go to hell. This people will stand mobbing, robbing, poverty, and all manner of persecution, and be true. But my greater fear for them is that they cannot stand wealth; and yet they have to be tried with riches.”

I can't think of a statement more antithetical to the premise of "prosperity theology" than the foregoing quote of Brigham Young, which is cited at least 19 times on the Church's website. If the Brethren are preaching "prosperity theology," they are doing a very poor job of it.

See also these 1988 comments from Elder Oaks (same link as above) :

I agree with the sentiment expressed by Bluebell, namely, that "that following God's commandments can lead to prosperity."  "Can" is, I think, the operative word.  And if and when this happens, the Brethren have given us plenty of clear and sound counsel regarding the dangers that are almost inherent in the pursuit and accumulation of material wealth. 

This is why I can't go along with claims that the Church preaches some variation of the "prosperity gospel" concept.  That concept is, I think, substantially more absolutist, and therefore flawed.  See, e.g., this description of it from Wikipedia:

"{A}lways the will of God."  Nope.  this is not what we believe.

"Material and especially financial success is seen as a sign of divine favor."  Unfortunately, some Latter-day Saints are susceptible to this flawed perception.  But this hallmark of "prosperity theology" is, I submit, absent from the counsel of the Brethren.

Despite the warnings, riches are considered a blessing if one can remain humble and charitable with them and the Lord promises it to us for righteousness and "deigns" to give us riches.  

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I assume you are referencing this 2018 story:

I'm not sure it's accurate to characterize Pres. Nelson's comment in such a simplistic way.  Pres. Nelson is an intelligent man.  He was speaking in very broad and collective terms, which out not be read or construed in isolation.  If he had said "People of the world become healthier and happier when the observe the principles arising from the Word of Wisdom," I don't think it would be fair to distill this down to: "Simply obey the Word of Wisdom and you'll be healthy and happy."

I agree that he was speaking very broadly and collectively and the promises were not limited to Kenyans.  I will let his words speak for themselves as to why the church preaches tithing to poor people:

Quote

“We preach tithing to the poor people of the world because the poor people of the world have had cycles of poverty, generation after generation,” he said. “That same poverty continues from one generation to another, until people pay their tithing.”

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I think you are not fairly or accurately characterizing his remarks.

Perhaps you are misconstruing how I am characterizing his remarks.  I am simply repeating his words.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

There are no such promises in the scriptures.  If you still feel otherwise, please consider this a CFR for "all the universal prosperity (financial prosperity, specifically) promises" in the scriptures.  I would expect your response to include

A) multiple scriptural citations ("all the ... promises") which

B) "specifically" promise "financial prosperity") on

C) a "universal" level.

Thanks,

-Smac

I feel that I have already fulfilled this CFR with the passages I have listed.  I know there are others.  I haven't even begun to look for modern day quotes on the topic. 

 

 

 

 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Could you itemize which charities you are referencing here?

Thanks,

-Smac

Why?

[CV75]

I'm getting all my money back that I donated to OURS.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I don't know about their finances, but I'm not persuaded that their motives center on having "money to burn."  Rather, I think their motives are more about, well, casting the Church in a poor light.  Disparaging and denigrating it.  Fomenting ill will against and poor opinion of it.

I should have bene more specific.  Huntsman has the money to spend on a suit that is simply to make the church look bad. I do not know about the others. Litigation is not cheap.

[Teancum]

On 11/6/2023 at 1:18 PM, smac97 said:

The Church is doing plenty for "the poor and needy" with monies, service hours and other means

Clearly plenty is in the eye of the beholder. But I Guess if I give a few hundred $$ to the poor compared to what I make, it is really not plenty. 

[Teancum]

On 11/6/2023 at 2:34 PM, smac97 said:

The Church continuing its current fiscal management it will be much more likely to having the means "to help the poor and the needy," as well as continue the operations of the Church, for a long time.  This is a superior course of action to the "Just Throw Money At It!" approach, which practically invites corruption, waste, mismanagement, and perverse incentives to perpetuate humanitarian needs, rather than solve them (example: California's calamitous approach to "homelessness").

Plus, we have received assurances from the Church that "humanitarian expenditures have doubled in the past five years" (as of 2020), and that these expenditures "are going to increase fast."  

I don't know that anybody that seriously thinks about this issue suggests just to throw money at it, whatever IT is.

A billion or so is year is great.  But for the church it is like me giving away a few hundred $ per year.  The church can do more. Much more. It can and should and it can do it smartly.

[CV75]

5 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I don't know that anybody that seriously thinks about this issue suggests just to throw money at it, whatever IT is.

A billion or so is year is great.  But for the church it is like me giving away a few hundred $ per year.  The church can do more. Much more. It can and should and it can do it smartly.

Edited November 8, 2023 by CV75

[Teancum]

On 11/6/2023 at 4:36 PM, smac97 said:

he Church is "using the majority of its resources for the public good."  It's just not doing do it using the "Just Throw Money At It!" approach you espouse.

Hyperbolic straw man.  @Analyticsis not arguing this whatsoever.  And I certainly don't agree that the church could not deploy $8 billion a year towards humanitarian aid in a responsible manner. They have the resources.  The leaders and management of the church are not dumb.

[smac97]

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

Jacob 2:19 also guarantees riches for those who seek them to do good.   

Cumulatively, yes.  The Church's current wealth is, I think, a manifestation of this.

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

Do this and you will receive this. 

Cumulatively, yes.  We as a people "do this" and "receive" blessings, including wealth.

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

It is irrevocably decreed in heaven that the Lord is bound when you do what he says. That is prosperity gospel. 

No, I don't think it is that. 

First, you can only get there by reading a handful of verses in decontextualized isolation, by misapplying the precepts of those verses, and by utterly disregarding the substantial body of scriptural and modern prophetic/apostolic counsel that goes quite against what is generally referenced as "prosperity gospel," and by trading on equivocation ("prosperity gospel" and "prosperity theology" are not particularly well-defined terms, but they have substantial pejorative value).  Regarding your invocation of Jacob 2 as an indicator of "prosperity theology," as James Egan put it:

Quote

In my experience, the scripture that comes up most often in Mormon discussions of wealth appears in Jacob’s impassioned plea to his people in Jacob 2. “And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them,” he says. The common conclusion from these words: there is nothing wrong with wanting to be rich, so long as one intends to do good with one’s wealth. It seems clear enough as Jacob continues, “[Y]e will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.” This seems to sum things up, even when the social and individual dangers of riches, which are in ample scriptural supply, go entirely unmentioned. Moreover, we don’t need other scripture to see that reducing Jacob’s words to a recommendation of the prosperity gospel and its philanthropic prospects misses the deeper thrust of his speech, which comes into better focus if we read the whole passage...

(Emphasis added.)

See also here (responding to a then-recently-published article about the Church in Harper's Magazine) :

Quote

 

Lehmann makes much of what he calls The Book of Mormon's "prosperity" cycle, yet he neglects to mention that the end of the cycle is pride and utter destruction. In fact, the main overarching theme of The Book of Mormon (prosperity and pride precede the fall) contradicts Lehmann's entire characterization of Mormon theology.

One does not need to scour the "pages of Joseph Smith's revelation(s) in vain for any suggestion that wealth complicates the spiritual lives of believers," as Lehmann suggests. In fact, a simple search on lds.org (the LDS Church's official website) will turn up the following verses among Smith's revelations, admonishing believers to not seek after riches alone:

"Seek not for riches but for wisdom… Behold, he that hath eternal life is rich." (Doctrine and Covenants 6:7)

"And verily I say unto thee that thou shalt lay aside the things of this world, and seek for the things of a better." (Doctrine and Covenants 25:10)

"... It must needs be that the riches of the earth are mine to give; but beware of pride, lest ye become as the Nephites (a Book of Mormon people) of old." (Doctrine and Covenants 38:39).

 

 

(Emphases added.)

Second, it looks like the people who are making this argument are, broadly, antagonistic against the Church.  Certainly the Brethren are not saying it.  You are putting words into their mouths.  See, e.g., this 2015 statement from then-Elder Oaks:

Quote

I will speak first of the deceitfulness of riches. Wherever we are in our spiritual journey—whatever our state of conversion—we are all tempted by this. When attitudes or priorities are fixed on the acquisition, use, or possession of property, we call that materialism. So much has been said and written about materialism that little needs to be added here. Those who believe in what has been called the theology of prosperity are suffering from the deceitfulness of riches. The possession of wealth or significant income is not a mark of heavenly favor, and their absence is not evidence of heavenly disfavor. When Jesus told a faithful follower that he could inherit eternal life if he would only give all that he had to the poor (see Mark 10:17–24), He was not identifying an evil in the possession of riches but an evil in that follower’s attitude toward them. As we are all aware, Jesus praised the good Samaritan, who used the same coinage to serve his fellowman that Judas used to betray his Savior. The root of all evil is not money but the love of money (see 1 Timothy 6:10).

See also here ("As demonstrated by this conference address of Elder Packer, Mormons differ from those who preach the so-called Gospel of Prosperity.").

You are putting words into the mouths of the Brethren, and telling us we should listen to those words instead of what the Brethren are actually saying.  That does not work.

Third, the scriptures include all sorts of instances where, as Jeremiah put it, "the wicked prosper."  The notion, then, that "prosperity" is per se evidence of "divine favor" - the hallmark of "prosperity theology" - is patently unscriptural.

Fourth, I have previously conceded that some Latter-day Saints subscribe to at least the concept of "prosperity doctrine," but they do so in error, and in contravention to what the Brethren are teaching us.

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

I agree.  It is a collective promise for all individuals. 

No, it's a collective promise for the community.

By your reasoning, the Word of Wisdom's promises to those who "keep and do these sayings" (that they shall "find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures," and shall "shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint," and "the destroying angel shall pass by them") must be read in absolutist terms.  And yet we all know that "individual" Latter-day Saints can and do still get sick and have other frailties of the flesh.

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am persuaded that the prosperity cycles and the promise of prosperity for righteousness in the Book of Mormon includes wealth/possessions.  That would be a stretch to deny. 

It would be an even bigger stretch to suggest that the Brethren are telling us something like: "Hey, you know that whole Cycle-of-Pride thing we see in the Book of Mormon?  Yeah, go do that."

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

Despite the warnings, riches are considered a blessing if one can remain humble and charitable with them and the Lord promises it to us for righteousness and "deigns" to give us riches.

Cumulatively, yes.

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

I agree that he was speaking very broadly and collectively and the promises were not limited to Kenyans.  I will let his words speak for themselves as to why the church preaches tithing to poor people:

And yet you previously did not "let his words speak for themselves."

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

Perhaps you are misconstruing how I am characterizing his remarks.  I am simply repeating his words.

You are mischaracterizing his comments.

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

I feel that I have already fulfilled this CFR with the passages I have listed. 

Then you haven't come close to demonstrating the verity of your claim that the Church propounds a message of "universal prosperity (financial prosperity, specifically) promises in the Book of Mormon and D&C."

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

I know there are others.  I haven't even begun to look for modern day quotes on the topic. 

Okay.

Funny how we can all have access to basically the same information on a given topic, and yet reach wildly disparate conclusions about that topic.

Thanks,

-Smac