helix Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 2 hours ago, Teancum said: Thing is I don't need this from almost every charity I donate to. Why? Because I can see where the money goes because they don't hide their financials from the public nor from donors. So this really is an ineffective point. Somebody else's money is none of my business. But much more importantly, a religion's money is not the government's business. 1
pogi Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) 51 minutes ago, smac97 said: You are mischaracterizing his comments. Sorry, I didn't know that you had authority to read his mind and decide what he meant. I am sharing how I interpret his words which seem pretty clear to me. I don't know what else they could mean or how it makes sense "cumulatively". That is a word that you added and he never used. It doesn't even make sense. How would paying tithing help poor people get out of poverty if it is only works when the whole nation is paying tithing. Aint gonna happen. That makes no sense to teach tithing to poor people for a reason and goal that is unachievable. Makes no sense. I think you are mischaracterizing his comments into meaninglessness. Quote We preach tithing to the poor people of the world because the poor people of the world have had cycles of poverty, generation after generation,” he said. “That same poverty continues from one generation to another, until people pay their tithing.” Edited November 8, 2023 by pogi
Teancum Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 1 hour ago, CV75 said: Ah silly boy. I do do that. I give $$ to organizations that actually do use the majority of $$ they receive to relieve human suffering.
Teancum Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 41 minutes ago, helix said: Somebody else's money is none of my business. How is this relevant? 41 minutes ago, helix said: But much more importantly, a religion's money is not the government's business. Well you are wrong. At least the US tax code disagrees with you and actually if an organization wants to be tax exempt, and also if it wants the donations made to qualify as a tax deduction for the donors tax filings, the government has an interest in what a religion does with its money.
helix Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Teancum said: How is this relevant? Because many of these complaints have a pervasive, underlying theme: The church deserves these lawsuits, the church deserves all the public media slander, and ultimately it's the church's fault . 1 hour ago, Teancum said: Well you are wrong. At least the US tax code disagrees with you and actually if an organization wants to be tax exempt... Huh? 501(c)(3) church organizations do not need to report their income to the US federal government. This is tax law 101. I don't know where you are going with this. 1 hour ago, Teancum said: the government has an interest in what a religion does with its money. Oh, it has an interest, but not in the way you think. The Establishment Clause has a deeply invested interest ensuring a religion is afforded privacy in its finances from the federal government. 1
ttribe Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, helix said: Huh? 501(c)(3) church organizations do not need to report their income to the US federal government. This is tax law 101. I don't know where you are going with this. Ever heard of a Form 990? ETA: Obviously, there's an exemption for churches to choose not to file the form, but their affiliated entities (e.g. EP) are not exempt. Edited November 8, 2023 by ttribe 2
helix Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 26 minutes ago, ttribe said: Ever heard of a Form 990? ETA: Obviously, there's an exemption for churches to choose not to file the form, but their affiliated entities (e.g. EP) are not exempt. Ensign Peak's 2022 Form 990 does not cover anywhere close to the size, type, and breadth of church finances in these frivolous lawsuits: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/870513270/202311569349301216/full
ttribe Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 7 minutes ago, helix said: Ensign Peak's 2022 Form 990 does not cover anywhere close to the size, type, and breadth of church finances in these frivolous lawsuits: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/870513270/202311569349301216/full First, you may not realize this, but I've already said that this case will likely go nowhere (I am a forensic accountant/expert witness by profession) when I weighed in on page 1. Second, clearly anything that dives all the way into tithing receipts and operational expenditures is well beyond the scope of information from EP's disclosures. Third, the counter is that EP appears to be the ultimate repository for the actual (semi-liquid) assets under the control of the Church. From that standpoint, the Form 990 is informative as to the disposition of a significant proportion of the annual tithing revenue. 2
helix Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, ttribe said: the Form 990 is informative as to the disposition of a significant proportion of the annual tithing revenue. If it's so informative, then answer these two basic questions: How much annual tithing revenue does form 990 say the church receives in a year? How much annual tithing revenue does form 990 say the church invests in a year? Edited November 8, 2023 by helix
Teancum Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 On 11/7/2023 at 4:30 PM, Danzo said: As someone who is aware of how much people pay in charitable donations, I also have observed that people who pay tithing (in or out of the church) avoid poverty. Might be your client base rather than it being tied to tithing. None of my clients are Latter-day Saint tithe payers. Some are charitable. Some are not at all. None are in poverty.
ttribe Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, helix said: If it's so informative, then answer these two basic questions: How much annual tithing revenue does form 990 say the church receives in a year? How much annual tithing revenue does form 990 say the church invests in a year? Well, since I plainly stated that EP's 990 is informative regarding only a "significant proportion," and not the entire amount, your question cannot be accurately answered, at least not in this moment. With some additional information, a forensic accountant might be able to come up with an estimate, but it would only be that. Aside from operational costs, the Church clearly has money going into its real estate portfolio and its building construction expenditures. With enough time and resources, one could probably cobble together a lot of the real property purchase information (at least in the States) and come up with some reasonable estimates of ongoing construction costs which, when pieced together with the EP information might provide a snapshot that's at least in the same "county" if not the ballpark, itself. But, near as I can tell, this is all rather beside the point. The Plaintiffs' fraud claim is hopeless, in my opinion. As things are currently stated in the Complaint, there is simply no sufficient evidence of intent, not to mention specific damage, for the Court to treat this as anything but a fishing expedition. I will say, as a side note, that after nearly 20 years in forensics, as well 5 years as a Big 4 auditor way back in the day, I am generally a fan of more disclosure than less for organizations. The Church used to issue financial statements up until 1959 and since then the party-line has been that it doesn't disclose the information to avoid looking like a deep pocket for litigation; but that cat is way, way out of the bag since the EP information started coming to light. In a number of foreign countries, the Church is required to disclose financial information as it pertains to that country, even to this day. IMO, the Church could easily make this ongoing criticism go away with a return to it's pre-1959 policy. It's not like the general public doesn't know that the Church has an enormous amount wealth just sitting in EP, at this point.
Danzo Posted November 8, 2023 Posted November 8, 2023 23 hours ago, pogi said: I have observed the same things from non-Christian immigrants coming from poverty. I would be curious to see studies on converts who live in generational poverty who start paying tithing. I haven’t witnessed the promised blessings in the Philippines. It seems that investing the money in other ways and learning sound financial principles seems like a more sure way out of poverty to me. I think it would be difficult to conduct such a study. Paying tithing, like many commandments rarely happens in isolation. A person may join the church, stops smoking, stops drinking, stops partying, takes a self reliance course, joins a close knit social organization, pays tithing and then becomes better off financially. Which of these changes caused the person to be better off financially? Paying tithing is a sign of ones devotion to a higher principle, which can lead to blessings, not a cause of those blessings. As noted in a recent conference talk God isn't some sort of cosmic vending machine.
helix Posted November 9, 2023 Posted November 9, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, ttribe said: Well, since I plainly stated that EP's 990 is informative regarding only a "significant proportion," and not the entire amount, your question cannot be accurately answered, at least not in this moment. With some additional information, a forensic accountant might be able to come up with an estimate, but it would only be that. Aside from operational costs, the Church clearly has money going into its real estate portfolio and its building construction expenditures. With enough time and resources, one could probably cobble together a lot of the real property purchase information (at least in the States) and come up with some reasonable estimates of ongoing construction costs which, when pieced together with the EP information might provide a snapshot that's at least in the same "county" if not the ballpark, itself. But, near as I can tell, this is all rather beside the point. That's an awful lot of hedging phrases without getting anywhere. Form 990 is clearly not providing that info at all if it can't come close to answering the basic questions posed. (Seriously, go look at the numbers in Ensign Peak's 990. They don't help with the questions I posed.) I'm only staying on topic to the original point: The church is afforded privacy in their finances, and the US government explicitly defends the right of a church to be free of government regulations over their own finances. Edited November 9, 2023 by helix
Danzo Posted November 9, 2023 Posted November 9, 2023 6 minutes ago, Teancum said: Might be your client base rather than it being tied to tithing. None of my clients are Latter-day Saint tithe payers. Some are charitable. Some are not at all. None are in poverty. You have a different client base than I do. My clients run from 4 figure incomes to 7 figure incomes. Many are eligible for Earned income credit, Some even are eligible for the full 50% retirement savings credit. Others pay a large Net investment income tax. A small minority of my clients are members of the church.
Teancum Posted November 9, 2023 Posted November 9, 2023 22 hours ago, Nofear said: Not prosperity, but sufficiency. If we are wise stewards with our finances, including, but not limited to, paying our tithing, the promise is that there will be sufficient. If I pay tithing but otherwise am unwise and foolish with my financial stewardship, the blessings of paying my tithing won't stop me from financial ruin. Paying tithing won't cause financial ruin or financial prosperity. It has no impact. What does have impact or many things and one of them is where you were born and into what circumstances you were born into.
smac97 Posted November 9, 2023 Author Posted November 9, 2023 5 hours ago, Teancum said: Why? I am curious as to their financial disclosures. But in retrospect, I think my request was intrusive. I withdraw it and apologize. Thanks, -Smac
Teancum Posted November 9, 2023 Posted November 9, 2023 1 hour ago, helix said: Because many of these complaints have a pervasive, underlying theme: The church deserves these lawsuits, the church deserves all the public media slander, and ultimately it's the church's fault . Well personally I think the give me my tithing back lawsuits are silly. 1 hour ago, helix said: Huh? 501(c)(3) church organizations do not need to report their income to the US federal government. This is tax law 101. I don't know where you are going with this. That is not what I said. All tax exempt organizations report their activity of a Form 990(with some exemptions for small NFPs) except for churches. Never the less, churches must meet the requirements of IRC Section 51(c)(3) and if they run afoul they can have their tax exemption revoked. 1 hour ago, helix said: Oh, it has an interest, but not in the way you think. And what do I think? 1 hour ago, helix said: The Establishment Clause has a deeply invested interest ensuring a religion is afforded privacy in its finances from the federal government. So you think a religion can do whatever it wants with it's $$ and not run into problems with its tax exemption? What about lobbying efforts? Why does the church strive to remain politically neutral?
Teancum Posted November 9, 2023 Posted November 9, 2023 21 minutes ago, Danzo said: You have a different client base than I do. Likely. 21 minutes ago, Danzo said: My clients run from 4 figure incomes to 7 figure incomes. I don't have any 4 figure clients and not even 5 figures hardly at all anymore. Most are 6 figures up. 21 minutes ago, Danzo said: Many are eligible for Earned income credit, Some even are eligible for the full 50% retirement savings credit. Others pay a large Net investment income tax. A small minority of my clients are members of the church. I only have a few LDS clients.
Teancum Posted November 9, 2023 Posted November 9, 2023 4 minutes ago, smac97 said: I am curious as to their financial disclosures. But in retrospect, I think my request was intrusive. I withdraw it and apologize. Thanks, -Smac Well I did not view it as intrusive and I can share some. My 'why" was abrupt. I meant it more to be what relevance did it have? So here is an organization I am very fond of and support. It is calle Give Well and they focus on finding charities to support that has the most impact on saving lives. In other words, a dollar to a Give Well supported organization is supposed to go further in saving lives than say giving to the Red Cross or some other organization. Here is a link to the information they provide to the public: https://www.givewell.org/about/official-records These include: Board Meetings Financials Policies IRS-Related Materials Conference Calls
Teancum Posted November 9, 2023 Posted November 9, 2023 4 hours ago, smac97 said: Cumulatively, yes. The Church's current wealth is, I think, a manifestation of this. Given the massive wealth the church has that just keep growing and growing with out doing any good I think the church is violating Jacob 2:19.
mfbukowski Posted November 9, 2023 Posted November 9, 2023 2 hours ago, Teancum said: Given the massive wealth the church has that just keep growing and growing with out doing any good I think the church is violating Jacob 2:19. I'm not going to argue with you, but how much money is required to create a country/ state capable of instantly- without prior not notice- govern all the people on earth, in one perfect utopia? That's what they believe with certainty. "NO man knows" when the Savior will return. 1
rodheadlee Posted November 9, 2023 Posted November 9, 2023 3 hours ago, Teancum said: Given the massive wealth the church has that just keep growing and growing with out doing any good I think the church is violating Jacob 2:19. They are doing those things. Just not to your satisfaction. How much would be enough to satisfy you? 2
The Nehor Posted November 9, 2023 Posted November 9, 2023 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: I'm not going to argue with you, but how much money is required to create a country/ state capable of instantly- without prior not notice- govern all the people on earth, in one perfect utopia? That's what they believe with certainty. "NO man knows" when the Savior will return. What does God need with a starship money? Is fiat currency going to survive the Second Coming at all? What I am saying is BUY CRYPTO! Note: Do not actually buy crypto. 1
mfbukowski Posted November 9, 2023 Posted November 9, 2023 53 minutes ago, The Nehor said: What does God need with a starship money? Is fiat currency going to survive the Second Coming at all? What I am saying is BUY CRYPTO! Note: Do not actually buy crypto. Better still, buy real estate. DO actually buy real estate. You can't eat gold bullion. It jest don't get to be a more tangible asset than a nice hunka dirt. 🤭
The Nehor Posted November 9, 2023 Posted November 9, 2023 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Better still, buy real estate. DO actually buy real estate. You can't eat gold bullion. It jest don't get to be a more tangible asset than a nice hunka dirt. 🤭 You can’t eat gold bullion or dirt. Stupid human digestive system with its limited ability to extract nutrients. 2
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