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Israel under coordinated attack by Hamas.


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Hey, it's gotta start somewhere, why not where it's supposed to? ;)

 

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I'm a little rusty on my history. How many times has a peace proposal been turned down by the Palestinians? I believe it started in 1946 with a proposal to share the land? I know they had the Camp David Accords during president Carter's reign. Somebody want enlighten me? I would study it but I  have to go do the family grocery shopping and get my oil changed.

Edited by rodheadlee
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Timing was either smart or stupid depending on what happens. Netanyahu is incredibly controversial since he took power back and the nation is heavily divided over the government’s judicial reforms. Basically Netanyahu’s government is trying to reform the judiciary to weaken it. They argue the Supreme Court has too much power. Their opponents argue that the Supreme Court is the only real check on majority rule. There may be a constitutional crisis very soon. This could be a 9/11 type event that unites the nation or the blame might be placed on Netanyahu’s ultranationalist aggressive settlement policies coming home to roost. 

The rocket attacks appear to have been more of a distraction. The real goal was probably the insurgent strikes. They focused heavily on taking prisoners. One of the primary goals is probably a prisoner swap since some in Hamas are saying they have enough prisoners to trade for those Israel currently has detained. I doubt the numbers match up.

The usual nations are lining up. There is some dark comedy in Russia trying to call for calm and suggesting that military conflict is not the answer. The xenophobic are screaming that this is going to happen worldwide anywhere there are Muslim immigrants.

This is going to be ugly.

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9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Most Israeli-Palestinian peace accords have failed due to having a lot of promised “good faith” actions that neither side actually followed. Trying to pin blame on one side because of how many peace accords they would not accept is silly.

I believe the Oslo accords are a glaring exception to this. Afafat's last minute refusal robbed the Palestinian people of their last best hope. I'm no Israel shill but I don't have the language to convey my disdain for Arafat.

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20 minutes ago, Chum said:

I believe the Oslo accords are a glaring exception to this. Afafat's last minute refusal robbed the Palestinian people of their last best hope. I'm no Israel shill but I don't have the language to convey my disdain for Arafat.

I’m not a fan of Arafat but I don’t put the failures of the Oslo accords on him. Arafat had just been elected as part of the government the Oslo accords created and was negotiating with Israeli Prime Minister Rabin and while it was tense they had a working relationship. Then Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish extremist and the Likud party in Israel took power and Benjamin Netanyahu became prime minister and he and his party were explicitly against the Oslo accords so Arafat took them less seriously. The agreements broke down. Part of this was due to Arafat not being able to build a working administration. Part of this is due to the fact that Arafat sucked at it but to be fair even a skilled administrator would have had trouble trying to administer a territory when a large part of it was still under Israeli military occupation.

When Netanyahu lost power and the more moderate Barak took charge negotiations opened up but they were tense and the working relationships were mostly gone. Israel was also aggressively pursuing building more settlements and the more extremist Hamas were gaining in power from the Palestinian outrage. Maybe a skilled diplomat and administrator could have kept control and tamped down the extremists but Arafat was not that guy. The following summit at Camp David was kind of idiotic. The issues put on the table were big issues that were unlikely to be resolved so it was difficult to get an agreement so none happened.

Talks continued but Ariel Sharon’s Temple Mount visit sparked a big wave of violence (that wave is part of how Hamas was able to get control of the Gaza Strip in the following years). The US also got 9/11 around this time and interest in peace talks in the Middle East tapered off.

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Hamas is probably facing its own pressures. Their main adversaries in the Gaza Strip are even more extreme than they are. This might have happened to hold onto power.

I was wondering as it seemed such poor timing.   That leadership felt they had no choice but to make a move, so they decided if they had to, make one that looks like it is effective for at least the beginning and then when they fail, they can blame those who backed Israel rather than just not being strong enough.

Waiting a little longer as the Israeli military and others got more ticked off with Netanyahu’s government at the very least.  Now Hamas is going to have not only a really pissed off country for so blatantly going for civilians, but the government is likely going to be unified and the extreme elements under control because Netanyahu won’t have a choice, thus making a stronger Israel (my “expertise” is a result of a night of reading articles and feeling like I am experiencing deja vu, so please correct me if I have made any stupid assumptions).  

Plus now there will be little pressure on Israel to back down on harsh measures with Palestinians for some time, imo, as so many will see this as a 9/11 type of event with the failure of Israeli intelligence that was thought to know everything that was going on in Gaza.  Now measures will be seen as reasonable in order to get better intelligence to prevent this happening again, imo.

And that Hamas started out with the flood of jubilee over death bodies of Israelis, big loss of sympathy there.  And I get why their civilians got no warnings as those would have been picked up by Israeli intelligence most likely, but they will more likely be seen by moderates as callous to those they claim to be protecting.  Again, not a good look.

The death toll in Palestine is already double what it is in Israel if reports are semi accurate and Hamas is going to run out of rockets before Israel does.

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5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

 

WARNING AS SOME OF THE LINKS HAVE GRAPHIC, VERY DISTURBING PICTURES OR VIDEOS ON THE PAGE

And from the Palestinian side, if you are interested in seeing how it looks to them, this page is providing lots of updates showing how Israel is the total aggressor with only an occasional nod to the fact Hamas let loose with their rockets first.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/7/israel-palestine-escalation-live-news-barrage-of-rockets-fired-from-gaza

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Following one of the deadliest attacks on Israel in decades, Netanyahu vowed to turn all Hamas hideouts in Gaza to “rubble”, telling residents of the besieged enclave to “leave now”.

It is a statement that underscores the fundamental plight of Palestinian civilians living in Gaza, who live under Israeli blockade and do not have freedom of movement, several analysts have noted.

“Where exactly are they supposed to go if they can’t leave?” Mairav Zonszein, a senior Israel analyst with Crisis Group, questioned on X.

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Speaking to Al Jazeera, Ali Abunimah, the co-founder of US-based Electronic Intifada website, said that Biden’s unequivocal support of Israel will likely lead to more violence in the coming days.

“We should take Joe Biden’s statements as a green light to Israel to perpetrate more of the kind of massacres that it has been carrying out against the Palestinian people now for almost 80 years with total impunity,” he said.

“What we’re seeing now is exactly what many of us have predicted, and it’s the inevitable result of granting impunity to a regime that has absolutely no respect for international law, for basic humanity, and for the rights of the Palestinian people,” he said, referring to US support for Israel.

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According to the health ministries in Gaza and the West Bank, this is the death and injury toll so far this Saturday:

232 dead, 1,700 injured in the Gaza Strip

Six dead (two in Ramallah, one in Jericho, one in Qalqilia and two in Hebron), more than 50 injured in the West Bank

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Yonah Jeremy Bob, a military analyst for the Jerusalem Post, says Israel is likely planning a major ground assault into Gaza – the biggest since the 2014 invasion.

“There’s going to be a second act and that is an invasion of Gaza, and I think larger than 2014 when Israel called up 80,000 reserves. Israeli has four divisions of reservists that it is already calling up and has moved 35 brigades to the border. So what Israel had a 6:30am this morning [when the Hamas attack began] was minuscule to what it has now. Within a day or two, Israeli will have a massive force that will be able to overwhelm Hamas forces in Gaza,” Bob told Al Jazeera.

“What the question will really be is how far they want to go? Does it want to topple Hamas and have to figure out being in control, or handing control over to the Palestinian Authority, or a multinational force and all the consequences that could have?”

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ian Ministry of Health says.

Another 126 Palestinians have been injured, according to a tally by the Palestinian Red Crescent Society. That number includes occupied East Jerusalem.

A breakdown of the injuries:

33 hit with live ammunition

10 injured by rubber-coated bullets

69 treated for tear gas inhalation

5 injured by shrapnel

8 physically assaulted

1 stabbed by an Israeli settler

I am not seeing any mention of assaults on Israeli settlers, which must be going on.

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Settler attacks across the West Bank are intensifying, Palestinians say.

In Yasuf, east of Salfit, 10 people were injured, six with live ammunition, according to Wael Abu Madi, deputy head of the village council.

“In our little village, we are constantly subject to settler attacks especially on our farmers, who are prevented from accessing their land,” Abu Madi said. “Yesterday, the settlers destroyed 40 trees and stole our olive harvest, and today they tried to raid the village with the help of the army, which fired live ammunition at us.”

He added three homes were burned “and they tried to burn another home with women and children in it”.

“Settlers also fired their own weapons and stabbed a young man as others surrounded a house for two hours before they fled when people from the village arrived.”

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Medical doctor Belal Dabour says one of the hospitals in Gaza he frequented earlier today was jam-packed as families searched frantically for their loved ones who may have been killed or injured amid Israeli attacks.

“It was very crowded. The death toll in Gaza is staggering. You can imagine the number of relatives searching for their loved ones, in addition to people who came to to support their families,” he added.

Meanwhile, Dabour said some were there to donate blood while others showed up to seek refuge in the hospital vicinity.

“They believe hospitals are relatively safe, especially people living by the eastern borders of Gaza. This has been a trend in previous wars,” he added.

 

Edited by Calm
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Palestinian Authority President Abbas has told US Secretary of State Blinken that “injustice” towards Palestinians is driving the conflict with Israel to an “explosion”, according to the Palestinian news agency WAFA.

Abbas attributed the escalation to “practices of the colonialists and the Israeli occupation forces, and the aggression against Islamic and Christian sanctities”, according to WAFA.

From the same page…

From what I can tell, the desecration of Islamic and Christian sanctities was this past week’s Feast of Tabernacles visits by Jews to the Waling Wall.  If anyone knows of actions of what we would more likely call desecrations, please point to them (acts of vandalism).

And I have notices a couple of linkings of Christians as being victims alongside the Muslims of the Israelis in statements from Hamas and now Abbas.  Is this realistic at all or an attempt to paint themselves as more inclusive than they really are?

Edited by Calm
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26 minutes ago, Calm said:

I was wondering as it seemed such poor timing.   That leadership felt they had no choice but to make a move, so they decided if they had to, make one that looks like it is effective for at least the beginning and then when they fail, they can blame those who backed Israel rather than just not being strong enough.

The timing seems to be very symbolic.  It is 1 day after the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War and it is on one of the Jewish holidays (Simchat Torah) as well as a sabbath.

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Just now, webbles said:

The timing seems to be very symbolic.  It is 1 day after the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War and it is on one of the Jewish holidays (Simchat Torah) as well as a sabbath.

Good point.  I wonder if that points to it being more PR motivated than practicality (from Hamas leadership POV), trying to link themselves to glories of the past (is the Yom Kippur war seen as a heroic glory for Palestinians?).  Or is it a community highly tied to symbolic gestures?

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31 minutes ago, Calm said:

I was wondering as it seemed such poor timing.   That leadership felt they had no choice but to make a move, so they decided if they had to, make one that looks like it is effective for at least the beginning and then when they fail, they can blame those who backed Israel rather than just not being strong enough.

Waiting a little longer as the Israeli military and others got more ticked off with Netanyahu’s government at the very least.  Now Hamas is going to have not only a really pissed off country for so blatantly going for civilians, but the government is likely going to be unified and the extreme elements under control because Netanyahu won’t have a choice, thus making a stronger Israel (my “expertise” is a result of a night of reading articles and feeling like I am experiencing deja vu, so please correct me if I have made any stupid assumptions).  

Plus now there will be little pressure on Israel to back down on harsh measures with Palestinians for some time, imo, as so many will see this as a 9/11 type of event with the failure of Israeli intelligence that was thought to know everything that was going on in Gaza.  Now measures will be seen as reasonable in order to get better intelligence to prevent this happening again, imo.

And that Hamas started out with the flood of jubilee over death bodies of Israelis, big loss of sympathy there.  And I get why their civilians got no warnings as those would have been picked up by Israeli intelligence most likely, but they will more likely be seen by moderates as callous to those they claim to be protecting.  Again, not a good look.

The death toll in Palestine is already double what it is in Israel if reports are semi accurate and Hamas is going to run out of rockets before Israel does.

In virtually all of these conflicts the Palestinian death toll is an order of magnitude higher for the Palestinians than the Israelis. To be clear that is not a moral judgment that somehow Palestinians show more restraint. Both sides show little restraint. It is just the realpolitik reality of military capabilities.

The timing does seem bad. I do wonder if Hamas has some other threat they are heading off or some other pressure. It is also possible that if this drags on it may hurt Netanyahu more than it helps. I expect a big response. Netanyahu’s ideal scenario is a few crushing and overwhelming blows and then back to business as usual. A drawn out slog with no end in sight is probably his worst nightmare.

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31 minutes ago, Calm said:

And from the Palestinian side, if you are interested in seeing how it looks to them, this page is providing lots of updates showing how Israel is the total aggressor with only an occasional nod to the fact Hamas let loose with their rockets first.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/7/israel-palestine-escalation-live-news-barrage-of-rockets-fired-from-gaza

I am not seeing any mention of assaults on Israeli settlers, which must be going on.

 

I watched too many videos of civilian bodies piled up last night to be in the mood for ‘both sides’ today. I saw terrorists attacking civilians. 
 

Also tired of one side using human shields. That is on them.

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25 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I watched too many videos of civilian bodies piled up last night to be in the mood for ‘both sides’ today

I am not intending to justify the assaults by Hamas in the least by posting these. They are, imo, as much more, if not responsible for the deaths of their people for launching this massive offensive.  They had to know that Israel would strike back furious and yet they didn’t care to protect or prepare their people in any way that I can see.  Hamas leadership is evil beyond words imo for doing this, volunteering their people to be martyrs for their cause.

 I am presenting the “other side” to show how twisted this all is and to try and figure how Hamas believes this was a smart thing to do, what their motivation might be (and not to justify their action, but to better judge its corruption).  If what Hamas leaders really care about is having the support of the people so those in power can stay in power, then this assault makes sense because it seems pretty clear that they do have the support (though this could be biased writing from AJ towards Hamas in more ways than just being against Israel)…because it is absolute stupidity imo to believe they are going to do anything but make the situation worse for the Palestinians….maybe they are delusional and it is hopeless trying to see any reasoning from them.

That AJ is more or less ignoring the implications of Hamas basically telling Palestinians to kill or kidnap any Israelis they can get their hands on and is ignoring any aggression against settlers while offering detailed reports of the reverse (and I wonder if it is actually settlers who are causing the injuries when specifics aren’t provided, but merely grouped with alleged attacks by settlers).

I just saw a video showing Palestinians protecting an Israeli mother, maybe someone got smart enough to realize the videos showing grandmothers being kidnapped and Israeli bodies being stamped on was not a good look for the international community.  Somehow I don’t think they are going to push those scenes out of the minds of those who saw them with disgust and horror.

Edited by Calm
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This is an Israeli social media journalist.  He is showing pictures of those who have been kidnapped for hostages, including young children.

How can anyone think this is a good move?  
image.thumb.png.8e9161c1c375755c2a144a7cdda77e58.png

And it looks like Hezbollah is joining the attack in the North.

https://www.facebook.com/hnaftali

WARNING AS HE HAS DISTURBING CONTENT ON HIS PAGE

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, Calm said:

I am presenting the “other side” to show how twisted this all is and to try and figure how Hamas believes this was a smart thing to do, what their motivation might be (and not to justify their action, but to better judge its corruption).

Okay, I get that. It is twisted. I don't understand how they think this helps their cause.

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

This is an Israeli social media journalist.  He is showing pictures of those who have been kidnapped for hostages, including young children.

How can anyone think this is a good move?  
image.thumb.png.8e9161c1c375755c2a144a7cdda77e58.png

And it looks like Hezbollah is joining the attack in the North.

https://www.facebook.com/hnaftali

Israel understands perfectly well what happens when hostages are taken. I think everyone does.  There’s going to be an extraordinarily disproportionate response.

 

Poor kids

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4 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Israel understands perfectly well what happens when hostages are taken. I think everyone does.  There’s going to be an extraordinarily disproportionate response.

 

Poor kids

I really, really hope they will be treated well so it makes for a great photo op when they are release, but fear what is going to happen with Israel responding so forcefully.  And the current videos are not giving me confidence even with the occasional “women and children are not our enemies” video thrown into the mix.

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